Rootes Group Cars

Folks, thanks in advance for any direction or assistance.

35 Years ago, the only car I never caught while driving my 64 Jaguar E=type, my wife and I were watching one of those Car Build shows on TV in our new home, During the show someone had a Tiger, I told my wife of the "race" I had with a Sunbeam that I thought was an Alpine but was as fast a Tiger and that I could not CATCH the thing ( I was 16). In any case my wife asked if I thought I could find THAT car, I told her it was VERY doubtful, two days later I drove by IT, the tarp blew off and there it was, 35 years later. Long story short, I just bought the car, and MYSTERY solved the car had a Ford 289 in it and a MUSTANG Auto Trans and REAR END, the car is rough and needs restoration, My plan is to rebuild the 289 and perhaps ungrade the Suspension FRONT and Rear. ANY direction suggestions are welcome. I was thinking maybe a CUTDOWN MAZDA MIATA Suspension or 280zx (the one with rear disk brakes). The present MUSTANG rearend has to go! the HUBS are dished and put on backwards to get the tires under the rear fenders, and I think the IDRS would be nice.. IDEAS? I NEED MY HEAD EXAMINED!

John, Welcome! Lots of info here and on SAOCA forum. Very popular to put a 2.8 Mustang II/Ranger V6 in the Alpine with Jose's kit. Newer DOHC fours also. 72-75 Mail Jeep and CJ5 4x4 rear is the right width. The MGB wire axle rear is the right width also. Both need to be changed to the Alpine bolt pattern which is the same as Pinto, Mustang II and Fox Mustang. 4x4.25. You can bolt in 68 Camaro front and rear shocks in the 64-67(series IV and V),Earlier 60-62(series1 and 2) 63(series 3) have noticeable tail fins. The Tiger was only 64-67. I have a 65 that I'm going to put a 260 V8 in like originally in the Tiger. 67 went to 289. Also Grant steering wheel adapter for mid 80's RX7 has same splines as Alpine.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/14/2014 04:29AM by mgb260.

John If I were you I would also turf the automatic transmission. Sportscars and standard transmissions go together.
What year of Alpine is it?
I owned a 62 at one time but since then I have gone to the dark side and now own a TR6. I still think that it would be neat to build a Tiger clone.
Now get on to it and post lots of pictures.

Cheers
Byron

Thanks for the notes folks, The Auto has got to go. I HAVE to put in a rear end as well as the car has a early MUSTANG WIDE rear end.. The Transmission cavity will have to be redone as it was multiple flat sheets tacked together, and the steering is the original ALPINE and welded bent sections to get it under the 289.. It's a 67 btw.. My idea I am thinking on is an IRS an an updated front end, what are the thoughts on the 289 ? It's out for a rebuild and has a MASSIVE 4 BRL Holey Carb, I thought of selling all that stuff and finding a Fuel Injected 289? My little Frankenstein car is a bit off from the start..... Thanks in advance..

JohnS

John going with a newer Ford small block with EFI may present some problems. The EFI setup is great but I think it is kind of tall and you may end up having to go with a hood scoop or blister. If you have the money rebuild the 289 and check out the bolt on fuel injection systems that are out there. These systems are quite good now and are self tuning. This way you could keep the engine looking like it has a carb and the thing will fit under the hood.
I would skip the IRS and go with a coil over with either a three link or four link set up, this setup will be a lot less head ache and will work quite well.
On the front end I would ask Jim Nichols (MGB260) on how he is doing his front end, he has some real good ideas on the easiest route to getting a front end with the right Ackerman and the least amount of bump steer.
You have many options the trick is to pick the easiest and most economical route to get this thing on the road without costing a small fortune and burning yourself out.

Cheers
Byron

coil over with either a three link or four link set up, this setup will be a lot less head ache and will work quite well.

Thanks for the Advice. I agree. Something I can afford and something simple (that works) is the way to go.. The COIL OVER with three or four Link... is there a KIT? something from a DONOR Car? or is the something that you guys fabricate? Thanks for the info!

johnS

John, Byron is right on. The 289 is fine. You don't need a big carb 500-600cfm is fine. Junk yard GT40 heads out of 90's Explorers are better than any of the old stuff. I'm putting a Weiand Action Plus (Street Warrior) intake on mine as it's the lowest height. Mustang T5 with S10 tailshaft to put the shifter in the right place. I actually like the leaf spring rear. You can do bolt on Traction Master bars like the Tiger or more modern Cal-Trac style. On the 67, the early ones have the same single bar grille as the 64-66,later had the eggcrate grille. Front suspension can be modified like the Tiger but improved. There are expensive aftermarket alternatives. I do plan a new Mustang II streetrod style IFS, but I'm probably going to rebuild and modify the stock one first and then copy everything over. You can also narrow the 7.5 Ranger rear axle pretty easily. Then you can use Ranger front hubs for 5 lugs all the way around. I'm even going to flare the fenders for 7" rims in front and 8" in back. You can look at Bill Guzman's Classic Conversions 4 bar for the MGB. You may be able to modify it to fit.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/13/2014 10:27PM by mgb260.

Send a PM to Robbie (socorob) as I remember that he converted his Alpine to a 4 link setup, I am sure he will be willing to give you some information. Here is the link to the thread

[forum.britishv8.org]

Cheers
Byron

Thanks, looks like the 4 link is a highly modify straight axle, my problem is I don't have an ALPINE Axle, i thought if I have to scout a replacement for the MUSTANG straight shaft I might as well go all out and do the IDRS... I will PM Robbie as you suggested...

Thank you..

JohnS

John, The Jeep axle I referenced earlier is the right width. The Tiger used a Dana 44 also. The MGB wire wheel axle(you would use solid wheels)is the right width and plenty strong. The lug pattern has to be changed. The IRS is pretty complicated in the narrow confined space of an Alpine. There is a guy that has a BMW IRS in a Tiger on this board,he also has a You Tube video series on his build. His name is Peter Glenk. A couple more forums:
[teae.org]
[www.catmbr.org]
[irsforum.boardhost.com]



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 05/13/2014 11:06PM by mgb260.

John, 4 bar info:
[www.jalopyjournal.com]

Thank you all for all the INFO.. I will educate myself on the 4 Link.. Maybe the way to go, I just thought the IDRS would be a REAL nice upgrad to the straight axle, though the NARROW Sunbeam could be an issue. I thought of some FENDER FLARES to allow a few more inches for the IDRS. I went to my local Engine guy today, he says 800 to 900 to build the 289 with a bit of head work and a cam. Seems pretty reasonable, and I know him to be honest and capable. He mentioned that I should think about a newer model V6 and Transmission combo, that they are lighter and produce more power than the the 289 would. He also said the AUTO transmission would be a lot easier to deal with, I think the Manual is a MUST, but I gotta say his slant on the V6 makes a lot of sense.

Jose's kit for the 2.8 Ford V6 is popular with the Mustang T5 and Ranger 4 speed auto. That said, to me there is nothing like a Ford V8 in a Sunbeam. I am going to make a little more room in my firewall cut out. I will probably use the 26x16 Griffith radiator that Mike used in his TR7. I have the same Speedway Motors block hugger headers too.
[forum.britishv8.org]

My 260 V8:




Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/14/2014 08:33PM by mgb260.

Sunbeam Alpine/Tiger with flares. Bottom one is VW Rabbit flares like used on MGB:



Wheels available, Vision Torque 143 6 offset 15x7 and 0 offset 15x8, and knockoff center caps:







Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 05/25/2014 01:24AM by mgb260.

John, I don't know if you have seen Bill's car or not. He has the triangulated 4 bar rear and just did coilovers in front.
[www.britishv8.org]

Thanks for all the INFO. I think I have decided to just go with the straight axle with the 4 point... My question is, aren't the DANA 44 Axles that were used on the JEEPS geared for low speed and high torque? Aren't they too heavy and slow for a little Muscle car? I would like to have 4 wheel Disks, is there something out of a DONAR car I should look for?

Thanks in Advance!

JohnS

John, Actually, The 72-75 Jeep Dana 44 is most commonly 3.73. Some mail Jeeps were 3.08. You can also find 3.31 and 3.54 in the larger Wagoneer housings. They are stronger than the original 2 piece Tiger axles. They are 30 spline, flanged one piece axles and commonly Posi too. The 70-71 Commando is rarer but almost a perfect fit. The MGB Wire wheel axle is plenty strong and is 3.91 ratio stock. There are 3.07 and 3.31 after market gears available. Glenn Towery has Stainless Steel thrust washers to replace the stock Fiber and copper ones. Do a search here and on Mgexperience on narrowing the 83-92 Ford Ranger 7.5 and 8.8 rear by shortening one side and using another short axle. 3.45 most common ratio, also 3.08 and 3.73. Posi's and Mustang disk brakes work with them. Those are the best options for rear axles. Here's a link to a thread on rack and pinion front suspension and Ranger front rotor/hubs.



[forum.britishv8.org]


Some Tiger and Cobra guys are using the early Mazda Miata rack. The MGB rack will work too, with MGB steering arms. There is tech info on one of the Tiger forum links.



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 05/18/2014 09:44PM by mgb260.

Narrowed Ford 8" rear axle works well also.

Thanks for the INFO, I believe it has a FORD 8" in it right now, NOT NARROWED. How difficult is it to cut it down? Right now I am scouting a rear end, and trying to decide if I want to rebuild the 289 or put in a 302 or 351W, Does anyone know if they are the same size? Bolt Pattern? I believe the 302 is but maybe not the 351W...

Thanks for all the info.

JohnS

The 8" pinion yoke is offset so you end up with one short and one long axle. There are inexpensive long spline axles that can easily be cut to the right length. What costs is cutting the tubes accurately and rewelding the ends. There are disk brake kits for that axle also. The longer stroke 351 is about 1 1/2" taller and wider. The 289/302 is a tight fit. If the 289 has the old style 5 bolt bellhousing(smaller) it would fit easier than the newer 6 bolt(larger) bellhousing in a stock Tiger tunnel. All of that would be cut away anyway in a Alpine conversion. More like a square box coming out of the firewall with the tunnel after that. If you look in the gallery at the Sunbeam Tiger pictures you will see how far the engine is set back. You need to insulate for engine heat also.