Rootes Group Cars

a place for Sunbeam, Hillman, Humber, Singer, and Talbot performance enthusiasts

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Charlie Cheap
Charles Johns

(11 posts)

Registered:
03/12/2014 07:21PM

Main British Car:


1967 Sunbeam Alpine engine change
Posted by: Charlie Cheap
Date: March 13, 2014 10:10AM

I am new to this site but am a long time car builder in the street rod field. After finishing my wife's 65 Mustang this month I will start on my Sunbeam. My cars have won the Dallas Autorama in their class and been featured in major publications. That is not a brag but to let you know my history and abilities. I am 70, retired, have my own shop and do all my own work except engine machine work and custom upholstery...I am blessed. The problem is I have always liked sports cars but never got serious about building one, until now. The 67 Series V I have owned for 30 years and rebuilt the 1725 20 years ago...but never fired it! I turn it over once a year though. After reading everything I can find on the British Rootes engine I purchased an 85 Mustang 2.3 and a Tremec T5 trans. for a swap. Has anyone heard of this change? What problems will I face other than the obvious? The 2.3 appears to be taller and maybe a little longer but I managed to shoehorn a big block Ford into a 32 Deuce so maybe I can make it fit!? Any info on this or similar swaps will be greatly appreciated. Any help I can give to this site I will gladly do. My training is in electronics (degree and 20 years repairing home entertainment equipment), building cars (frame up) for 40 years, small engine specialist schools plus 15 years as a gunsmith (still do some). I learned long ago others who have done what I want to do can be of great help avoiding problems. I am fairly knowledgeable on engines, body work, painting, fabrication and wiring so if anyone has a question simply e-mail me. Thanks for your time.


Moderator
Curtis Jacobson
Portland Oregon
(4298 posts)

Registered:
10/12/2007 02:16AM

Main British Car:
71 MGBGT, Buick 215

authors avatar
Re: 1967 Sunbeam Alpine engine change
Posted by: Moderator
Date: March 13, 2014 11:31AM

Welcome to BritishV8, Charlie!

I'm curious about why you haven't fired up and driven your car with the Sunbeam engine. I think that might be a smart place to start for several reasons. Most fundamentally, you'll better know what you like and don't like about the car besides its styling. I'm guessing you're planning on a turbo for the 2.3, right? Otherwise, a 2.3 isn't really THAT big a performance upgrade. From Wikipedia, 85 Mustang made 86hp w/o turbo or 205hp with. Either might be perfect for what you want, but driving the Sunbeam might help you be sure. When you sell the Sunbeam engine, you'll be able to say "It's been run in. It runs great. Here, you can hear it run!" versus "it might run".


mgb260
Jim Nichols
Sequim,WA
(1750 posts)

Registered:
02/29/2008 08:29PM

Main British Car:
1973 MGB roadster 260 Ford V8

Re: 1967 Sunbeam Alpine engine change
Posted by: mgb260
Date: March 14, 2014 02:53PM

Hey Charlie, The Alpine steering in front of the firewall is the problem with most engine swaps in the Alpine. The old 2.8 Ford V6 is popular and there is a nice kit from Jose on the SOACA board. The 2.3 is one of my favorite 4's. Speedway Motors has a lot of hopup stuff for it. It is tall and long though. I just found out a lot of Tiger guys are switching to 90-95 Mazda Miata racks. You can do power with Toyota MR2 electric power steering pump or depower the rack for manual steering. Keith of Flying Miata and this board has an excellent article on that mod. That would allow you to move the engine back and lower. Just make sure the oil pan is no lower than the front crossmember. You will need the S10 tailshaft housing on the T5 to put the shifter forward to compensate for the rearward motor.


Charlie Cheap
Charles Johns

(11 posts)

Registered:
03/12/2014 07:21PM

Main British Car:


Re: 1967 Sunbeam Alpine engine change
Posted by: Charlie Cheap
Date: March 17, 2014 10:44AM

Thanks Curtis and Jim for your response. Having built many RODS/CUSTOMS for customers and several for myself I started the Sunbeam project then got side-tracked when a guy with "lots" of $$ built a 4 bay shop for me in my backyard! I built exclusively for him for years as he paid me well. Lets see, build the Sunbeam or build for a guy who pays for EVERYTHING!? Ten years ago I retired to the country where I built a private gun range for testing guns (I worked for a police dept.), finished the 65 Mustang for the wife, had a mild stroke (TIA), built an energy efficient house, gunsmith shop, RV area with 3 hookups, dug a wine cellar (I make wine), planted a small vineyard/orchard and I write a column for a newspaper. Now at 70 if I live long enough I WILL FINISH THE SUNBEAM! The 2.3 can easily make 150 HP which is 50 more than the 1725 Rootes with easier to find parts. I am a Ford guy with much experience building 260 thru 351 V8's and some with the 2.3 we had in a Tempo. I have two Sunbeams and will put the factory engine in the one I sell after I finish mine. I do not have lots of $$ as I began life in the Dallas projects, served on 3 carriers and my wife of 48 years is an orphan...but we do own everything including our farm/wildlife management 20 acres. Money IS a consideration while tools, ability and a shop are covered. This site looks like the place to find info and "stuff" so I will contribute to pay my way. Curtis please send me an e-mail to tell how I do that but don't expect a lot of money...just some! Thanks again guys and I will keep in touch with pix and info as I progress.


Moderator
Curtis Jacobson
Portland Oregon
(4298 posts)

Registered:
10/12/2007 02:16AM

Main British Car:
71 MGBGT, Buick 215

authors avatar
Re: 1967 Sunbeam Alpine engine change
Posted by: Moderator
Date: March 17, 2014 12:29PM

Charlie, I have complete confidence you'll make it happen.

Please take lots of photos along the way! BritishV8 is built around "How It Was Done" articles - but we don't have enough Alpine HIWD stories yet. Also, we'd enjoy following a Project Journal.

Information about contributing to the operating fund can always be found under the "Contacts" pull-down menu at the top of the page, but here's a direct link: [www.britishv8.org] - (Snail mail address appears below the PayPal stuff.) Thank you!


Charlie Cheap
Charles Johns

(11 posts)

Registered:
03/12/2014 07:21PM

Main British Car:


Re: 1967 Sunbeam Alpine engine change
Posted by: Charlie Cheap
Date: March 17, 2014 04:04PM

Okay, if I fire the engine to be sure it runs what is a '67 1725 worth...w/trans and wo/trans? I may sell it and keep the other body for spares. My 2.3 has a C4 behind it and I may keep it to keep the wife happy...she hates shifting! My 32 rumble seat coupe had a C4 and worked fine for thousands of miles behind a modified 289 using a Ford power steering cooler as a trans cooler. No radiator work needed just place it in a cool area with good airflow. I would post pix of my work but don't have any "sporty-cars", just street rods and customs. I guess I could post a few BEFORE pix of the Beam. A buddy has an MG with a 302 he just finished, maybe I can get him on this site. Curtis, "Check is in the mail"...just as soon as I can squeeze it out of the wife!


Charlie Cheap
Charles Johns

(11 posts)

Registered:
03/12/2014 07:21PM

Main British Car:


Re: 1967 Sunbeam Alpine engine change
Posted by: Charlie Cheap
Date: March 17, 2014 11:18PM

Curtis, small world...my buddy with the MG V8 has been on this site for years! We graduated high school together and served on the Independence CVA-62 in 63/64. He lives in Dallas and I am 150 miles away in Rising Star, Texas. He said you guys are a lot of help and he has been to a couple of gatherings...rides. What do you call your get-to-gathers? In the Street Rod world they are Rod Runs...which always sounded like a personal problem! Looking forward to being a Sporty-Car guy.



mgb260
Jim Nichols
Sequim,WA
(1750 posts)

Registered:
02/29/2008 08:29PM

Main British Car:
1973 MGB roadster 260 Ford V8

Re: 1967 Sunbeam Alpine engine change
Posted by: mgb260
Date: March 18, 2014 12:58PM

Charley, Check on the SAOCA forum for price/value of stock Sunbeam motor.


pspeaks
Paul Speaks
Dallas, Texas
(696 posts)

Registered:
07/20/2009 06:40PM

Main British Car:
1972 MGB-GT 1979 Ford 302

authors avatar
Re: 1967 Sunbeam Alpine engine change
Posted by: pspeaks
Date: March 26, 2014 02:50PM

Hey Guys, I'm the V8 buddy in Dallas and CJ is right, there's no better group of car guys than what is here on this site.


Paul



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/05/2014 09:44AM by pspeaks.


KyleK
Kyle Kirkpatrick
Spokane, WA.
(4 posts)

Registered:
09/19/2013 11:13AM

Main British Car:
65 Alpine SeriesIV Ford 302ci

Re: 1967 Sunbeam Alpine engine change
Posted by: KyleK
Date: April 21, 2014 06:07PM

Sorry to bump an old thread, but I just wanted to add something about the T5 swap with the S10 tailshaft housing. I plan on doing the same swap into my 65 Alpine (though I'm using a 302) and the Chevrolet speedo gear will not work with the speedo cable needed for the Sunbeam, unless there's an adaptor out now that I haven't heard of? But last I checked, Modern Drivline in Idaho specializes in setting up the S10 tailhousings with the correct gear. The gears have a different inside diameter, and some people have been able to make a shim to get them to work, but that's nothing I wanted to mess with, haha. You might have better luck than me? Anywho, just figured I'd throw that out there just in case. Hope the build goes well!

-Kyle


pspeaks
Paul Speaks
Dallas, Texas
(696 posts)

Registered:
07/20/2009 06:40PM

Main British Car:
1972 MGB-GT 1979 Ford 302

authors avatar
Re: 1967 Sunbeam Alpine engine change
Posted by: pspeaks
Date: April 22, 2014 03:07AM

I realize most of you guys want to keep the stock speedometer and I tried that on more than one car, even to the point of sending my tach and speedometer to England to be modified. What a fiasco that was! In the end, as much as I like the look of the original gauges, I gave up and went with GPS. No matter what size tires, no matter what gears I switch to, it's not effected. Still, I like original gauges.


Paul


Charlie Cheap
Charles Johns

(11 posts)

Registered:
03/12/2014 07:21PM

Main British Car:


Re: 1967 Sunbeam Alpine engine change
Posted by: Charlie Cheap
Date: April 26, 2014 11:01PM

Paul, I gave up on electronics...GPS or otherwise and will use mechanical/electric stuff in the Beam. Pulling the 1725 next week and will trial-fit the 2.3 with the C3. I drove the 65 Mustang to south Texas (653 miles round trip) and it runs fine...except when hot. 92 degrees there and vapor lock appeared due to alcohol fortified gas!? Ordered a heat shield for the Stang to go under the carb. Problems never end. A cat killed all my chickens, I had to put down Uzi due to rattler bite, both toilets keep running over and now I start on the Sunbeam. Any advice for an old friend from high school and the Navy?


pspeaks
Paul Speaks
Dallas, Texas
(696 posts)

Registered:
07/20/2009 06:40PM

Main British Car:
1972 MGB-GT 1979 Ford 302

authors avatar
Re: 1967 Sunbeam Alpine engine change
Posted by: pspeaks
Date: April 27, 2014 01:24PM

Dig a hole for an out-house and get another rooster :-) But if you just get the rooster I wouldn't expect many eggs.


I've run my course with aftermarket electronic gauges too; with all the t-buckets we built we never got one to work right, and sometimes not at all, but speedometer cables on a bucket just look tacky. Mechanicals have their limitations as well if you decide to change tires or gears, which a number of us seem to be prone to do, nor is a driven gear available with the exact teeth you need. After going to Speed Hut GPS gauges on a number of cars we haven't had one problem. Admittedly they don't have the stock appearance, but as they are custom designed by the buyer, they can be made to look pretty close. Expensive...yes...but for quality and accuracy I'm glad I switched from the gauges I had. Yes I have a friend, I won't name here because of a conflict of interest, who is a dealer. No, I don't work for him, nor recommend their products, anybody that's interested, check them out for yourself. Sorry CJ, I liked Uzi a lot better than rattle snakes, maybe we've been hunting the wrong thing in your backyard.


Paul



Edited 7 time(s). Last edit at 04/29/2014 06:27PM by pspeaks.


pspeaks
Paul Speaks
Dallas, Texas
(696 posts)

Registered:
07/20/2009 06:40PM

Main British Car:
1972 MGB-GT 1979 Ford 302

authors avatar
Re: 1967 Sunbeam Alpine engine change
Posted by: pspeaks
Date: June 03, 2014 03:46AM

CJ, keep us posted on how the Sunbeam is coming along! See ya' Friday.


Paul


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