MG Sports Cars

Calling all enthusiasts:

I posted several months ago about my son's 76' MG midget. We have finally gotten it started, but it will not pass MOT inspection, due to Sir Lucas the Prince of Darkness wiring issues and electrical gremlins. Lights come on when they want too, blinkers blink and then don't, hazards come on when the brake is pushed, etc...

My son has been talking to me about "how can he make the car more reliable?" So we have embarked on getting the necessary components to re-wire the car and add a fuse block with relays for all of the components that consume electrical loads (lights/wipers/etc...) To that end, I have also been contemplating on a motor conversion, and thought that an old flathead would be a pretty cool option. I think the width of the flathead would be thin enough and the deck height low enough to lesson the modification of the body and or the engine bay.

I have come to understand through this site that a lot of guys in the MG world are retrofitting with V6's and V8's. I was wondering if anyone has ever thought of doing a flathead V-8 conversion? I think it would be a cool combination, kind of an MG Rat Rod blend~Britain meets the hod rod world... Any opinions???

Great idea. The main problem is weight, those old flatties were heavy. There is now a company making an aluminum flattie block but again, problem. It is made to fit the Ardun overhead valve heads. I have no idea what it would take to fit flat heads to that block but if it could be done it would make a wonderfully compact and lightweight engine.

Check with Furneax Riddall on the fuse and relay holders. RB4U and FBB16U

[www.furneauxriddall.com]

Jim

Jim, I've never seen someone as up for the unusual swaps as you are. The idea of a flat head swap is indeed intriguing, but knowing the basic Midget chassis as I do and the space available I think that it might not be such a good fit. There's not much foot well room in a Midget already and any 90 degree V engine almost has to cut into that room, if by nothing else than forcing the pedals to be moved to the left and crowding things in that way. Another consideration is that there aren't many options around for front suspension mods which could handle the weight of an iron flattie. Of course the aluminum engine would be another matter. The little V8 60 flathead was a common converision in T series cars back in the early 50s but those are very rare now and really wouldn't offer much more power than a well built 1500.
Curtis, if you want reliability then I'd stick with either a later model inline 4 or a 60 degree V6. Either of those packages can be installed with a matching 5 speed transmission, no need for special adaptors etc, work well in the existing chassis and weight close enough to the original engine to not make the front suspension a huge issue. Upgrade the electrics to use the modern EFI and ignition systems and you can have a very reliable car.

Here are my thoughts: The small flathead V8 is somewhere between 60 and 80 degrees coupled to a T-5 transmission or a shorty transmission, it might fit without mod'ing the tunnel much... They are a bit shorter in length and some blocks have a partial bell housing built in... Not sure about the actual weight, but they can't weigh more than a 302 or SB 327/350, especially with aluminum heads and manifolds, etc... I thought it would be a novel and cool learning experience for my son, to see how the kids did it back in the day when we didn't have all of these fancy choices out there.

Of course with anything you try and re-engineer, there are other facets that have to be addressed, suspension, rear end, steering, etc...

I just think it would be a really cool eye catcher, out of the norm if you will, and get some second looks and the proper respect from hot rodder's and car enthusiasts, like you guys. I am going to do a little more research and get some measurements and perhaps even get a mock up plastic engine to see if in fact it would fit.

The MG my son has, has been rode hard and not really taken care of very well prior to him getting it. No rust to speak of, but who knows what's under the paint... And judging by the wire jungle under the dash and hood, rewiring the care is not only a reliability issue, but also a fire safety one.

Curtis, there were only a couple of flathead V8s built by Ford, one by Cadillac, and I believe a couple from some pre war European marques that are rare. The most common engine would be the Ford and in it's last version ('53 239 cid) had a listed weight of 569 pounds. That's with iron heads and intake. The 302 by comparison weighs in at 460 pounds with iron head and intake. These things were anchors because of the casting techniques used. The same goes for the MG engines, the MGB engine comes in at 335 pounds, the 1500 Midget and 1275 were a bit lighter than that. So you'd add at least 150 pounds to the front of the car with an iron block flathead. These weights come from a list that's been on the internet for some time. [www.35pickup.com]
By comparison the Chevy 60 degree V6 weighs in at 350 pounds and the small twin cam import 4s are a bit less. It might look cool sitting in that engine bay, but I really doubt if you'd like driving the car afterwards with all that weight up front.
The same web site also has dimensions so you can get an idea as to the fit. I really don't know what transmission adaptors are available for the flattie. Probably the best source for parts for that engine is Speed Way Motors. [www.speedwaymotors.com] They even have the plastic mock up blocks and heads if you want to go that way.

Thanks for the inputs Bill and Jim...

Well after some intensive research and talking to a few seasoned Flathead Guru's, it turns out, it would be a bad choice for a midget. Weight and fitment are terrible side affects of this choice... I never realized just how heavy those block were, even with all of the aluminum after market heads and manifolds added. And too, because they are so rare and hard to find, they cost a lot more than many of the other choices. It could work, but there would be MUCH modification to be done, not to mention the cooling mod's and it isn't period correct. It would be cool no doubt, but it would be a lot more work than the coolness could generate.

So, now to find a rover engine and tranny or a V-6 that is serviceable without all of the work to completely rebuild it. Or alternately, I may just pull the 1500 and beef it up and add any performance mod I can get my hands on. I figure the worth of this car is so little that eventually it will become another paper weight, down the road.

I am still going to re-wire the entire car and stick a modern day fuse block with relays in it for reliability and safety sake. That should solve most of the issues with the electrical Lucas gremlins. I will keep you guys posted as time progresses and things happen.

Again, I have found sage advice on this forum, keep up the great work.

Bill is right, I wasn't thinking Midget. Well, I emailed Don Ferguson about the aluminum block and he flatly stated that his blocks are for the Ardun heads and did not elaborate. Perhaps a follow up will clarify the issue. I'm guessing there is no place to put the valves in the deck and no provision for intake and exhaust ports.

Jim

Curtis, that little 1500 can be built into a nice little engine for your son's car. I have a good friend with a 1500 Midget, mild cam, no porting or head work, header, and dual SU carbs from a Canadian Midget or Spitfire along with a Sptifire OverDrive transmission and it runs fine. He's had if from coast to coast several times attending MG events and has about 100,000 miles on the engine now and says it's getting time for a bit of a freshening. He easily cruises at 70 75 mph and can run quicker if needed. It won't accelerate as fast as my V6 but on the highway the only real edge I have is in passing on a two lane road. He does admit that after driving my car he wished the Midgets had been equipped with a V6 from the factory, said that's the kind of power they really need.