MG Sports Cars

engine swaps and other performance upgrades, plus "factory" and Costello V8s

Go to Thread: PreviousNext
Go to: Forum ListMessage ListNew TopicLog In
Goto Page: 123Next
Current Page: 1 of 3


pszlamas
Pete Szlamas
Chesterland Ohio
(14 posts)

Registered:
05/02/2010 08:43PM

Main British Car:
1976 MGB Ford 351

Small block ford engine mounts
Posted by: pszlamas
Date: May 02, 2010 09:17PM

Hi all, my name is Pete and first I'd like to say what an excellent resource this site has been to me!

I recently purchased a 1976 mgb roadster with hopes of converting it to V8 power. Its a near rust free california car that was in the process of restoration but the PO ran out of funds. I have a 351 that I had built a few years ago for a project that I lost interest on. The motor is pretty well built, aftermarket heads, matching cam and all the other bells and whistles. It was a nasty motor in my previous project car approx 450hp. My plan is to swap the 351 in with either a t5 or toploader four speed. I'm a welder by trade and I do posses alot of fabrication skills. Although I dont have alot of time to work on my toys, I like to make a plan and follow the best I can. For right now I want to get by with notching and using the stock crossmember and rebuild the front suspension with urethane bushings and maybe a tube shock conversion. I'd like to use the the stock mgb rear end for a year or so then narrow and old 8.8 ford i have.

I've been searching the forums and lurking for a while. I see how many members have swapped 302's in and I would go the same route but I still have the 351 that I need to do something with. I do know that 302's and 351's share the same motor mounts, bell housing and some other bits. The 351 has a taller deck and provided that all else are the same the 351 should drop in with some firewall and hood modifications which I am not afraid to do. Headers will be about the biggest challenge for me only because I dont have a tube bender so I will have to use a box of j and u bends and cut alot.

My first question is concerning the motor mounts, I see 64 comet/falcon motor mounts are popular, but all I can find are the motor mount pads and not the frame side mounts. Where should I get these at? if need be I can make them myself but If i can purchase them for a good price I will in the interest of saving time.

Second is concerning the transmission choice. I'm leaning towards a top loader 4 speed but i'm concerned with the external shift linkage. The tunnel is pretty narrow and I like to not cut it all up. Are the benefits of a 5 speed really that great over a 4 speed. I'd like to drive the car wherever and still have a few creature comforts. I'm not sure what rpms I would be turning with the OD compared to not having any.

Thanks in advance for all the help, I will be posting pictures of progress as I go.


pspeaks
Paul Speaks
Dallas, Texas
(698 posts)

Registered:
07/20/2009 06:40PM

Main British Car:
1972 MGB-GT 1979 Ford 302

authors avatar
Re: Small block ford engine mounts
Posted by: pspeaks
Date: May 03, 2010 03:51AM

Pete, first welcome to the group; there are any number of guys on this site who know more about what’s ahead of you than I, but I just did it and offer what little I know and my opinion for what it’s worth. First, the rule is sooner or later you’re going to have to disengage the clutch. An internal hydraulic throw-out bearing works well until it leaks and you have to disassemble the whole car to fix it. The alternative is cable which nobody seems to use or an external slave cylinder and mount which takes up pretty much all available room for shift linkage. I’ve had both four and five speed set ups and I think you’ll wish you had that extra gear, and the OD really comes in handy. I have a 72 which is a little more difficult than a 76 but count on more time to rebuild the firewall than you think, it can be a pain making templates and cutting sheet metal, plus there is a lot of grinding afterwards. All that said, I would do it again in a minute. No one has commented on my motor mounts ( see carb to hood clearance on this site) I guess nobody likes them, but you won’t believe the room I have for steering and exhaust. "P"


pszlamas
Pete Szlamas
Chesterland Ohio
(14 posts)

Registered:
05/02/2010 08:43PM

Main British Car:
1976 MGB Ford 351

Re: Small block ford engine mounts
Posted by: pszlamas
Date: May 03, 2010 10:49AM

Hey Paul, thanks for the advice. I've looked at your thread before and never even noticed those motor mounts. They look great. I've seen those in a few parts places that carry those for 302's but never a 351 but I would imagine they cant be too difficult to make.

As for the clutch, I've experienced the pain of hydraulic throwout bearings before. I have a 77 f-150 I converted to a mazda 5 speed which uses a internal slave. I dont think I'll ever use one again. I would rather use a small push type external slave on the bellhousing for the 4 speed to save room. I plan to make RV8 style headers and dump them out the side. Finding a decent t5 around here is getting difficult. Most are trashed and still aking $500. I can get a rebuilt top loader for that. With the low wieght of the car and the power of my motor I think if I had a rear gear of around 3.08 or even higher like 2.73 it would cruise well in 4th gear and still pack quite a punch running from 1st to 4th. I fear traction will be an issue still but will be even worse with 3.55's or lower.


mgb260
Jim Nichols
Sequim,WA
(2461 posts)

Registered:
02/29/2008 08:29PM

Main British Car:
1973 MGB roadster 260 Ford V8

Re: Small block ford engine mounts
Posted by: mgb260
Date: May 03, 2010 11:22AM

The original MGB frame mounts are cut off and saved. Notch and patch footboxes to heater shelf for clearance. Notch and weld crossmember.I grind those little tabs off the block too.The early "Comet,Fairlane,Mustang,Falcon" rubber mounts are bolted to the block and the block is put in place. The steering rack fits between the damper and oil pan. The original MGB frame mounts are bolted to the "Comet" mounts and tacked into place. Remove the block and weld solid.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/03/2010 11:27AM by mgb260.


pszlamas
Pete Szlamas
Chesterland Ohio
(14 posts)

Registered:
05/02/2010 08:43PM

Main British Car:
1976 MGB Ford 351

Re: Small block ford engine mounts
Posted by: pszlamas
Date: May 03, 2010 05:44PM

Exactly what I was trying to find! I found the mounts at autozone for 26 bones, I hate the zone but for once they had what I needed and will be here tomorrow morning. Summit racing doesnt carry the polyurethane mounts but the duracrap ones should work well for now. I'm glad I cut the mounts out clean this morning before I read you post jim lol. I'm borrowing a small plasma cutter tomorrow, I hope that will save alot of time notching the crossmember and cutting back the firewall so hopefully I can at least get the motor tacked and test fit tomorrow so I can fit and finish the firewall and floor pans.


mgb260
Jim Nichols
Sequim,WA
(2461 posts)

Registered:
02/29/2008 08:29PM

Main British Car:
1973 MGB roadster 260 Ford V8

Re: Small block ford engine mounts
Posted by: mgb260
Date: May 03, 2010 06:43PM

I don't know why more people don't use the 351W. About a 1 1/2" taller and wider. Strokers up to 427.The 94-97 (5.8 truck) is roller cammed. You could use a Chevy type cowl induction or Cobra scoop. The LS motor is about the same size but,must be a little lower if you can use a stock hood though.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/03/2010 07:40PM by mgb260.


pspeaks
Paul Speaks
Dallas, Texas
(698 posts)

Registered:
07/20/2009 06:40PM

Main British Car:
1972 MGB-GT 1979 Ford 302

authors avatar
Re: Small block ford engine mounts
Posted by: pspeaks
Date: May 03, 2010 07:03PM

I followed tradition and used a CNC push slave cylinder from Speedway and modified the shortened throwout arm to accept a 3/8" rod end (shaft not built at the time, but I've learned not to try to measure thin air). We built the motor mounts and transmission crossmember from scratch, but I have access to a complete machine shop and a lot of talented friends. Keep us up to date, we love to see how others overcome the beast. "P"



IMG_0508.JPG



ex-tyke
Graham Creswick
Chatham, Ontario, Canada
(1165 posts)

Registered:
10/25/2007 11:17AM

Main British Car:
1976 MGB Ford 302

authors avatar
Re: Small block ford engine mounts
Posted by: ex-tyke
Date: May 03, 2010 09:30PM

Quote:
I don't know why more people don't use the 351W. About a 1 1/2" taller and wider. Strokers up to 427.The 94-97 (5.8 truck) is roller cam....
One reason is that anything above 300 hp is really a waste since it becomes difficult to get that power to the ground.
My 302 has about 250rwhp and 225 wide rubber and wheel spin comes on very easily.


pspeaks
Paul Speaks
Dallas, Texas
(698 posts)

Registered:
07/20/2009 06:40PM

Main British Car:
1972 MGB-GT 1979 Ford 302

authors avatar
Re: Small block ford engine mounts
Posted by: pspeaks
Date: May 03, 2010 10:02PM

When it comes to wheel spin my bucket is fearsome, and sometimes hard to control, but thats OK because that's what it was built for. The MG is only pushing about 230 HP and I'll bet wheel spin will be a problem for me there as well. My plan is to try to be a little more mature and frugal with the MG, well, within the limits of my personality that is.


MGBV8
Carl Floyd
Kingsport, TN
(4511 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 11:32PM

Main British Car:
1979 MGB Buick 215

authors avatar
Re: Small block ford engine mounts
Posted by: MGBV8
Date: May 04, 2010 10:01PM

"An internal hydraulic throw-out bearing works well until it leaks and you have to disassemble the whole car to fix it."

Sorry, Paul, but I've never really bought into this argument. Whatever did we all do when the carbon release bearing died an early death on a stock MG?

Second thing is that on many of these conversions (including mine), the tranny can be pulled while leaving the engine in place. That means pull the trans & the clutch, HTOB, flywheel, bellhousing all can be serviced with the engine in place.

Even with the external slave cylinder you still have to worry about that release bearing. ;)


pspeaks
Paul Speaks
Dallas, Texas
(698 posts)

Registered:
07/20/2009 06:40PM

Main British Car:
1972 MGB-GT 1979 Ford 302

authors avatar
Re: Small block ford engine mounts
Posted by: pspeaks
Date: May 05, 2010 01:22AM

Good, remember Carl, I said it is just my opinion and there are people here who know much more than I, and well I guess you're one of them. Thanks for setting me straight, however, I still have no intention of using a HTOB and think the real possibility of a hydraulic leak on the clutch is not good. Admittedly a number of people use them without a problem, but people on this site have had and complained about leaks and nobody can tell me it’s easier to fix a leak inside the bell housing than on the side of the transmission, but as I always say, Do what you want, I do.


pszlamas
Pete Szlamas
Chesterland Ohio
(14 posts)

Registered:
05/02/2010 08:43PM

Main British Car:
1976 MGB Ford 351

Re: Small block ford engine mounts
Posted by: pszlamas
Date: May 12, 2010 05:12PM

Well I made the motor mounts the other day and have them welded in. I found a t5 that is supposedly rebuilt and will be mounting that and fabbing the crossmember later. I still have to weld the crossmember up and finish the floors and patch the firewall. Next big hurdle will be making headers. There is plenty of room for them fortunetly. I had to mount the motor a bit higher than I wanted to to keep from totally interfering with the steering shaft and column. Other than that it fits rather nicely. Hood clearance is the only issue I see but thats ok for me at this time.


mgb260
Jim Nichols
Sequim,WA
(2461 posts)

Registered:
02/29/2008 08:29PM

Main British Car:
1973 MGB roadster 260 Ford V8

Re: Small block ford engine mounts
Posted by: mgb260
Date: May 12, 2010 06:13PM

Pictures Pete? I always wanted to do this! Just having a little fun.
thumb_thisthreadisworthlesswithoutp.gif



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/12/2010 06:14PM by mgb260.


pspeaks
Paul Speaks
Dallas, Texas
(698 posts)

Registered:
07/20/2009 06:40PM

Main British Car:
1972 MGB-GT 1979 Ford 302

authors avatar
Re: Small block ford engine mounts
Posted by: pspeaks
Date: May 13, 2010 12:17AM

Pete, I’m a fair fabricator, but certainly no “Tin-Man.” I had a lot of trouble with the fire wall and all my friends kept saying “tac-tac-tac.” I made templates out of cheap matte-board and taped them together to mock up the fire wall. After transferring them to metal, and a little bending with a brake, I was able to reduce the number of welded seams; I hate grinding. I still plan on using Pete Mantell’s headers, but keep us posted and Jim is right, post some pictures.


302GT
Larry Shimp

(240 posts)

Registered:
11/17/2007 01:13PM

Main British Car:
1968 MGB GT Ford 302 crate engine

authors avatar
Re: Small block ford engine mounts
Posted by: 302GT
Date: May 17, 2010 07:44PM

I used a push slave cylinder that pushes on the dimple in the clutch fork where the cable normally mounts. The clutch fork is hardened and has shown no signs of wear in 40,000 miles. I had to shorten the push-rod, and it wears a litte such that clutch adjustment is needed about every 10,000 miles (but this is easy). I made a simple bracket to hold the slave cylinder to ribs on the T-5 transmission case.
100_1558.JPG



pszlamas
Pete Szlamas
Chesterland Ohio
(14 posts)

Registered:
05/02/2010 08:43PM

Main British Car:
1976 MGB Ford 351

Re: Small block ford engine mounts
Posted by: pszlamas
Date: October 17, 2010 06:52PM

Hello again!

Well things have dropped off since the summer. I have been working in Wyoming since august and being away from the car has given me lots of time to rethink my swap. I have since found a nicer car to start with. I picked up a 71 B chrome bumper that has been 90% restored but the motor was trash. Fresh yellow paint, new tan interior and all body parts including a useable top Rebuilt and painted suspension and underbody. Fortunetly I picked it up for a song, which the car is miles ahead of the 76 I have now. What I paid for the car is much less than purchasing a full interior kit.

With this new car I want to focus more on keeping the car comfortable, appealing, and reliable. My original plan was to have a stripped down race ready rod, no heat, spartan interior ect... I have built rods like that before and none of them I enjoyed driving more than 15 mins and I never raced. I will be purchasing a plastic mock block to aid in placing the motor. I usually work by myself so not having to use a hoist will help. I want to cut as little as possible on this car and in the footbox area. My previous placement in the 76 caused me to get a little judicious with the plasma cutter lol. Not having a brake makes that alot of patch work.

Unfortunetly I am not happy with the engine mounting solution I came up with before. I had to cut and weld on the comet mounts I got from autozone to get them to clear the frame and steering. I am concerned with the mounts being rubber that they are trashed after being hot from welding and grinding. Although I blew 26 dollars for mounts I'm not concerned. There I learned this might be more difficult than I expected.

I have searched and looked through nearly every ford swap and how it was done articles and I still am not clear on a solution. Does anyone have photographs of different mounting solutions inluding the comet mounts or even better part numbers?


pspeaks
Paul Speaks
Dallas, Texas
(698 posts)

Registered:
07/20/2009 06:40PM

Main British Car:
1972 MGB-GT 1979 Ford 302

authors avatar
Re: Small block ford engine mounts
Posted by: pspeaks
Date: October 17, 2010 08:35PM

Pete,

Obviously there are different solutions but this is the one I choose because it solved my motor mount/steering shaft conflict, but I'm sure there are others that do that too. Also I have access to a CNC machine which made it easy for me to cut them out and TIG the pieces together. Be advised a chrome bumper car is different under the hood than a rubber bumper. Develop a plan before you start and remember it’s easier to remove just a little bit more than it is to put metal back in. Of course if I had been a better Tin Man it would have gone better for me; I’m just not very good at it.



MM-1.JPG
MM-2.JPG
MM-3.JPG
MM-4.JPG


pspeaks
Paul Speaks
Dallas, Texas
(698 posts)

Registered:
07/20/2009 06:40PM

Main British Car:
1972 MGB-GT 1979 Ford 302

authors avatar
Re: Small block ford engine mounts
Posted by: pspeaks
Date: October 17, 2010 08:42PM

I forgot to mention we have used this on various street rods in the past and I was concerned about having the mounts attached to the heads but so far we haven't had an issue with it. Also I had a friend who used a plasma cutter; my recommendations for what ever they are worth, mark exactually where you want to cut (I use a gray sharpie because it's easier to see) and use a cut-off wheel whenever possible: a much cleaner edge to work with.




"P"



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/18/2010 10:33AM by pspeaks.


302GT
Larry Shimp

(240 posts)

Registered:
11/17/2007 01:13PM

Main British Car:
1968 MGB GT Ford 302 crate engine

authors avatar
Re: Small block ford engine mounts
Posted by: 302GT
Date: October 21, 2010 07:24PM

I used Chaterham 7 mounts. They attach to flat plates on the block and to flat plates off of the chassis rails or the crossmember (better to use the cross member). It is important to add braces to the chassis/crossmember mounting plates.


MGB SS
Joe Schafer
Central Michigan
(150 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 06:46AM

Main British Car:
1971 Mgb 1991 5.0 Ford

authors avatar
Re: Small block ford engine mounts
Posted by: MGB SS
Date: October 21, 2010 08:15PM

Pete

Like Paul I built my motor mounts off of the head making all kinds of room for steering and exhaust if you go through there.

I have had zero issues with this set up and wouldn't hesitate to build them again.

As mentioned above the Chrome Bumper Car has less clearance in the trans tunnel and fire wall area than the 76= More Cutting.

On the subject of Slave cylinder I went with a close mounted external type actually going through the back of the bell housing not next to it
Goto Page: 123Next
Current Page: 1 of 3


Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.