MG Sports Cars

engine swaps and other performance upgrades, plus "factory" and Costello V8s

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BlownMGB-V8
Jim Blackwood
9406 Gunpowder Rd., Florence, KY 41042
(5103 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 12:59PM

Main British Car:
1971 MGB Blown,Injected,Intercooled Buick 340/AA80E/JagIRS

authors avatar
MGB Roadmaster
Posted by: BlownMGB-V8
Date: October 23, 2007 01:27PM

We will immediately be moving to this forum as the Official site of the MGB Roadmaster group project under legal authority of the non-profit organization, British American Deviant Automotive Sports-car Society, LLC or BADASS, NLC for short. I will put notices on all three existing forums to that effect. Those threads can be viewed here:

[www2.mgcars.org.uk]
[www.mgexperience.net]
[www.v8buick.com]

This upcoming weekend is the October Roadmaster weekend (Oct 27th-28th) and participants are invited.
The address is 9406 Gunpowder Rd., Florence, KY 41042

I may be reached at: Jim (at) BlackwoodLabs (dot) com or at: (859) 816-2187.

Jim





I just made this post "sticky" so it will stay put near the top of the list... -Curtis





Thanks Curtis.

Unless otherwise scheduled, Roadmaster Weekend is always the last weekend of the month, at this location. Holidays may require rescheduling. Also Ted's winter party will be the location for January and the V8 meet will be the location for the month in which it is held.

-Jim





Donations to the Roadmaster Project can be made to:

Rick Ingram, Treasurer
1372 County Rd 2275 East
P.O. Box 588
St. Joseph, IL 61873

mowog1 (at) aol (dot) com

Checks should be made out to:

"British American Deviant Automotive Sportscar Society" or "BADASS"



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 09/08/2016 12:25PM by MGBV8.


V6 Midget
Bill Young
Kansas City, MO
(1337 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 09:23AM

Main British Car:
'73 MG Midget V6 , '59 MGA I6 2.8 GM, 4.0 Jeep

authors avatar
Re: MGB Roadmaster
Posted by: V6 Midget
Date: October 23, 2007 01:36PM

I didn't think it would take Jim long to get moved over here. At last a permant home for BADASS. Feels good to be home Jim.
Curtis, since BADASS is building a MG but will be supported by a lot of other owners of British V8s can we get a link off the other boards as well? Thanks.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/23/2007 01:39PM by V6 Midget.


BlownMGB-V8
Jim Blackwood
9406 Gunpowder Rd., Florence, KY 41042
(5103 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 12:59PM

Main British Car:
1971 MGB Blown,Injected,Intercooled Buick 340/AA80E/JagIRS

authors avatar
Re: MGB Roadmaster
Posted by: BlownMGB-V8
Date: October 27, 2007 10:17PM

Didn't take long at all Bill. If you'll recall, Curtis was one of the earliest supporters, assuring us that we would have a place at the British V8 Newsletter. Well, he's made good on his promise and so are we. Personally I'm 100% in support of the newsletter. I know what it was like before there was one. Things are now so much better that it's impossible to make a comparison and it's getting better still. There's a lot we can do working together that will have the synergistic effect of helping this project and helping the newsletter at the same time and Curtis understands that as well as I do. Better probably. So onward we go.

I have some photos from the Roadmaster Weekend. There's still one day to go but I probably won't get all of the news in this post anyway and there are more than 4 photos.

Friday evening, Dan Masters brought the Jag IRS. He had been up to Ted's place and sorry to say he was behind schedule getting home so he couldn't stay even long enough to come in for a bowl of chili, in fact in the rush I may not have even remembered to offer it. Apologies if not Dan. Anyway we went out to the lab and unloaded all the parts and Dan even managed to explain some of it for me, and then he was on his way. I had gotten him to help me lift the center unit up onto the upside down GT and position it. That's one heavy piece. Anyway today I got to spend some time unpacking all of the parts. To Dan's credit, he did not just give us a junkyard takeout. The suspension had been disassembled and inspected, and many new parts purchased including bearings, seals, bushings, 4 new u-joints, stub shafts, yokes, and a pair of brand new Brembo brake rotors. MVC-253S.JPG
In fact, as far as I could tell by looking the only part we still need for it is one hub flange as one of those appears to have been damaged in disassembly. It might be usable but should probably be replaced so if anyone can get us one.... It's just the flange that the wheel bolts to. We will be needing a set of brake calipers for it and I'll have to have those before I can mount the housing to the car as I need to check clearances, but I will contact Bill Guzman to see if there is anything he can do to help on that.
MVC-252S.JPG
The fit of the center unit is nothing short of amazing. It's almost like the MG engineers had planned for it. I have a Ford 8.8" unit from a T-bird and set it up on the mule and it didn't fit at all. The front mount eyes hit the battery boxes with the ring gear in the space needed by the tank. Just no practical way to use that and keep the boxes. The Jag unit is near perfect. With a 1/4" plate between the shelf and the housing the brake rotors have good clearance all around and the mounts for the lower pivot brackets line up very well with the corners of the battery boxes. In fact they are exactly the same width. A top bolt-in mount will be quite easy to build and with minimal reinforcing the battery boxes will make perfect anchor points for the pivot brackets. Remember, those battery boxes are structural. They do provide a significant amount of bracing where the transmission tunnel ties in. People have removed them without ill effect it's true, but that is just a testament to the strength of the body shell itself. Until the brake calipers are on hand I won't be able to say for certain, but it looks like the battery boxes will stay, largely unmodified.
MVC-251S.JPG
The plan is to replace the lower control arms with welded up tubular units similar to those offered by several aftermarket suppliers, along with redesigned welded up pivot brackets. Measurements show that there is room to go to tubular half shafts as well, and these two changes will eliminate a great deal of weight from the assembly, half of which is unsprung weight. The tubular half shafts are also dead simple to make up to any custom length.
MVC-250S.JPG
We will have to come up with a pair of coil-over units of course. I hope someone can donate a set.

Jim


danmas
Dan Masters
Alcoa, Tennessee
(555 posts)

Registered:
10/28/2007 12:11AM

Main British Car:
1974 MGBGT Ford 302

authors avatar
Re: MGB Roadmaster
Posted by: danmas
Date: October 28, 2007 12:40AM

Jim,

I apologize for being so rushed, but it took me about two hours to get through Cincinatti, after encountering a lot of road construction all along the way, so I was running way late. I got home right around 11, after leaving Ted's around 8.

If there were no brake calipers in the box I left, I most likely have them here at home. I'll look and see and let your know. I'm pretty sure I didn't toss them out.


Jacmo
Jack Morris
Chattanooga, TN
(9 posts)

Registered:
10/28/2007 08:46AM

Main British Car:
80 MGB Chevy 355 ci (Donovan Aluminum)

Re: MGB Roadmaster
Posted by: Jacmo
Date: October 28, 2007 09:05AM

Jim--OK--In regard to the alum. 300 heads (and associated pieces)--I would be happy to ship these items truck freight (and absorb the cost as a donation). But my main concern is damage and whether or not I'll be able to adequately protect from damage without running up outrageous freight costs. So...........I live in Chattanooga. I'll be willing to drive 3 or 4 hours in any direction from here to deliver to someone headed your way.

Anyone headed toward Jim's within the next month or so--that lives within 3-4 hours of Chattanooga?
Let me know. I'm at jackmorris99@comcast.net.
Thanks!


BlownMGB-V8
Jim Blackwood
9406 Gunpowder Rd., Florence, KY 41042
(5103 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 12:59PM

Main British Car:
1971 MGB Blown,Injected,Intercooled Buick 340/AA80E/JagIRS

authors avatar
Re: MGB Roadmaster
Posted by: BlownMGB-V8
Date: October 28, 2007 11:22AM

Thanks Jack. Steve DeGroat is bringing the engine up the first weekend of December. He lives near Columbia, SC. That's 5 hours from you but I'm guessing that he can route his trip up through Knoxville which brings him within less than 2 hours of you. Perhaps you could arrange to meet there and make the transfer. Alternatively, since Dan M. lives at Alcoa, TN that might make a good drop-off point, or a better alternative might be our VP, Carl Floyd near Johnson City. That'd be just a hair over 3 hours but might be a better route for Steve.

Hey Carl, is that Kingsport or Kingston? I think I may have it wrong in the spreadsheet. Incidentally I put the aerosol supplies in the spreadsheet as donations also. Which reminds me, Steve when you are here we'll talk about getting receipts to our contributors so that they will have documentation of their donations for taxes. I think we can make that a fairly simple task. We do need everyone who has made a donation and has not already done it to send us their address, phone number and email address. We are missing that info for a lot of you. Also lest I forget to mention it Steve, you and Margaret are more than welcome to the guest bedroom that weekend and we'd love to have you stay here and save the motel costs.

We have accomplished quite a lot at this point. I'm guessing that Dan will probably find the calipers, (Incidentally I totally understand about the rush. As you said, we'll have time to socialize at Ted's winter party.) someone else will come up with a set of coil-overs for us, and a good hub flange will materialize, clearing the way for assembling the IRS. I still can't believe how well that fits in there. I can purchase four U-joint yokes and some tubing to make up the stub shafts and as short as they are they may not even need to be balanced if I use seamless tubing. I will also need to buy tubing for the lower arms, probably 1-1/8 or 1-1/4" diameter, some 1 x 1-3/4" rectangular tubing for the upper brace and a small piece of 1/4" plate, but I will talk to Victory Tubing about making a donation and see what it gets us. Come to think of it, maybe Dayton Clutch and U-joint will contribute the shafts, at least I can ask.

Finally, Jim Stuart, if you've caught this post, could you let me know what the rim width and backspacing is on that set of wheels? I may have asked you that already but it would be buried in the old threads somewhere and I'll need that info before I can determine the control arm length. Even better would be if we can find a way to get the rims here, but I'm thinking maybe we can coordinate that with the trip to transport the engine to Dale Spooner's shop. Thanks everyone!

Jim


danmas
Dan Masters
Alcoa, Tennessee
(555 posts)

Registered:
10/28/2007 12:11AM

Main British Car:
1974 MGBGT Ford 302

authors avatar
Re: MGB Roadmaster
Posted by: danmas
Date: October 28, 2007 12:41PM

Jim,

I found the brake calipers, and I also have the emergency brake assemblies as well.

According to Mapquest, the route from Steve's home in Columbia, SC passes through Knoxville, about 20 miles from my house. Steve could drop by and pick them up without going a long way out of his way. I could give him a tour of my TR6 V8 project while he's here.



Jacmo
Jack Morris
Chattanooga, TN
(9 posts)

Registered:
10/28/2007 08:46AM

Main British Car:
80 MGB Chevy 355 ci (Donovan Aluminum)

Re: MGB Roadmaster
Posted by: Jacmo
Date: October 28, 2007 08:56PM

Dan--could I drop my items off at your place--assuming Steve will actually go thru Knoxville?

Thanks!


danmas
Dan Masters
Alcoa, Tennessee
(555 posts)

Registered:
10/28/2007 12:11AM

Main British Car:
1974 MGBGT Ford 302

authors avatar
Re: MGB Roadmaster
Posted by: danmas
Date: October 28, 2007 09:15PM

Jacmo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Dan--could I drop my items off at your
> place--assuming Steve will actually go thru
> Knoxville?


Jack,

That would be fine. We should be hearing from Steve or Jim soon as to Steve's route.


danmas
Dan Masters
Alcoa, Tennessee
(555 posts)

Registered:
10/28/2007 12:11AM

Main British Car:
1974 MGBGT Ford 302

authors avatar
Re: MGB Roadmaster
Posted by: danmas
Date: October 28, 2007 09:16PM

Jacmo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Dan--could I drop my items off at your
> place--assuming Steve will actually go thru
> Knoxville?


Jack,

That would be fine. We should be hearing from Steve or Jim soon as to Steve's route.


Citron
Stephen DeGroat
Lugoff, SC
(354 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 09:43PM

Main British Car:
1970 MGBGT V6, 7004R, AC, matching trailer 3.1 liter

Re: MGB Roadmaster
Posted by: Citron
Date: October 28, 2007 10:35PM

everyone,
We will be coming up through Knoxville on Thursday, 12/29. We can come by Dan's and pick up whatever is there. Don't know what time we will get there. We will leave Columbia about 9:00 to avoid the morning traffic here. I will try to get an aprrox. time of arrival in Knox.
Jim- thanks for the offer of the spare room, but we will probably stay at the same motel, it is cheap and easy.
Anybody that has stuff to donate that can get it to Dan's, we can pick it up.

Hope all this works out.
Steve


BlownMGB-V8
Jim Blackwood
9406 Gunpowder Rd., Florence, KY 41042
(5103 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 12:59PM

Main British Car:
1971 MGB Blown,Injected,Intercooled Buick 340/AA80E/JagIRS

authors avatar
Re: MGB Roadmaster
Posted by: BlownMGB-V8
Date: October 31, 2007 04:24PM

Unless anyone has an objection, we will move the November Roadmaster Weekend to the 1st and 2nd of December to accommodate Thanksgiving and coincide with Steve's visit.

I've gotten a four part article from Dan M. about the Jag IRS that looks pretty complete. In looking at it I can see where Dan has already done a lot of work on this IRS and spent a fair amount of money on parts. Thank you Dan, that is a very significant contribution. We have the upgraded UHMW control arm bushings as well as new bearings and u-joints. I've come up with a design for the differential support and I'm working on the details of the mounting cushions. I also want to make it adjustable for pinion angle. A range of 0-6 degrees would be more than anyone would need, but I won't know what angle the BBB will take until it's test fitted the next time and it would be good to be able to match the engine angle within 1/2 degree or less. The best I recall the engine angle is 2 or 3 degrees, so really if we have a range from 1 to 4 that should be plenty. I think I can find a way to build that into the mount.

The lower control arms are the next issue but they don't have to be completed until the car is ready to set on it's wheels. Still the sooner the better. It might be possible to use the stock arms, but space by the battery box corner is tight and they have to be shortened as well. A built up set should work fine and could be made adjustable so they can be set parallel with the ground. I'll give that some thought as well.

Jim


Citron
Stephen DeGroat
Lugoff, SC
(354 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 09:43PM

Main British Car:
1970 MGBGT V6, 7004R, AC, matching trailer 3.1 liter

Re: MGB Roadmaster
Posted by: Citron
Date: November 02, 2007 01:44PM

Just reread my post. We will be going to Jim's on 11/29 not 12/29. So we will pick up whatever at Dan's on 11/29 if that suits Dan.

Steve


danmas
Dan Masters
Alcoa, Tennessee
(555 posts)

Registered:
10/28/2007 12:11AM

Main British Car:
1974 MGBGT Ford 302

authors avatar
Re: MGB Roadmaster
Posted by: danmas
Date: November 02, 2007 02:14PM

That suits me fine.


danmas
Dan Masters
Alcoa, Tennessee
(555 posts)

Registered:
10/28/2007 12:11AM

Main British Car:
1974 MGBGT Ford 302

authors avatar
Re: MGB Roadmaster
Posted by: danmas
Date: November 04, 2007 10:44PM

The December issue of Hot Rod magazine has an interesting article on IRS setups that might be worth a look.



BlownMGB-V8
Jim Blackwood
9406 Gunpowder Rd., Florence, KY 41042
(5103 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 12:59PM

Main British Car:
1971 MGB Blown,Injected,Intercooled Buick 340/AA80E/JagIRS

authors avatar
Re: MGB Roadmaster
Posted by: BlownMGB-V8
Date: November 06, 2007 11:26AM

I went out and bought the magazine, figured I might as well subsidize those 4 old articles even though by now I think I've seen most of it on the web anyway. It is interesting what guys are doing with IRS these days, and apparently some of them are spending a lot of money doing it, up to twelve grand in some cases. I don't think such overkill is necessary for our car though. I see a lot of what looks suspiciously like Jaguar geometry on those conversions and that is probably because the Jag geometry is very simple. I have yet to see a good explanation of the principles of anti-squat and rear wheel steering in terms of how the forces are applied to the different suspension components, where and how the pivot points can be located to control it and which direction does what. That would be handy. I used to have Fred Puhn's book around here somewhere but I can't find it anymore, might have gotten some pointers out of that, but I don't recall him going into any great detail on the IRS either. If someone would send me that excerpt I'd add it to the Jag IRS binder though. We could probably make fairly minor changes to the Jag geometry as we go if it would be helpful, particularly in terms of anti-squat and traction control. I'm not sure the Jag has much of a problem with anti-squat just looking at the layout, but anything we can do to control wheel hop would help.

I get the idea that anti-squat is more of a problem with cars that have the lower control arm (LCA) mounted at an angle to the long axis of the car, and I suspect this is done to control wheel movement fore and aft. The use of a radius rod for this purpose means compliant bushings are needed somewhere. The only other alternative is widely triangulated inner pivot points, but this can also be accomplished with radius rods that have their inner pivot on the axis of the LCA inner pivot and this can be either forward or behind the axle. With that arrangement it is still possible that there could be some reactionary forces that tend to compress the suspension, but I don't know.

Wheel hop to my mind is largely the result of flex in the driveline and suspension and this is greatly aggravated by the way the Jag unit is made. Starting with the half shafts, a solid axle will twist somewhat under heavy load so going to tube axles will help, if only incrementally. We can do little about flex in the tires but going back the other way the upright (hub bearing carrier) is only supported at the bottom at two points. And as much as the UHMW bushings are a good idea for replacement of the stock timken bearings, they do have more give to them and will contribute to the problem. The stock LCA uses a large heavy tube and this is extremely resistant to twist, much more so than a built up LCA would be, but it is at the disadvantage of having the load applied through a lever arm (the upright) which is several inches long and this is the basic problem with the design. Jaguar did a fine job of designing around this problem by using rigid components and zero clearance bearings but the source of the problem is at the upright. Finally there is the connection from the LCA to the body of the car which includes the isolator mounts for the IRS cage. Other components that can contribute are the spring hub on the clutch and the motor mounts.

So knowing that twist at the upright is the biggest problem how do we fix that? Clearly if there was a way to tie the top of the upright to the body so it couldn't move fore and aft but could still move up, down, and sideways that would take care of it. A radius rod to the LCA doesn't do that, it would require an attachment of some sort at the top above the spindle. I suspect that Jaguar experimented with something along this line at some point but I've never seen anything on it. Two possibilities come to mind right away, the ubiquitous radius rod which in this case would need to be a little contorted or tie into the body in a higher location and this might work well with the UHMW bushings, and a strut of some sort similar to a McPhearson but shorter. A Watts linkage also should work just fine, provided there is room for it.

Now for anyone who has made it this far and wants to know why the half shaft is not enough for the upper control arm (UCA), although the half shaft is fine for controlling lateral movement of the upright it can do nothing to control fore and aft or rotational motion because of the u-joints and because it rotates, leaving every bit of the reactionary forces to be carried by the LCA. This explains why the LCA is so beefy on the Jag, and also should be a cautionary note to anyone considering built up LCA's, as they will not resist torque as well as the original arms do. Basically, that tube has to resist all of the torque output of the engine, multiplied by first gear and the ring and pinion, so if the engine produces 300 ft/lbs of torque which is multiplied by a factor of about 10 and the diff has a posi that's 3000 ft/lbs of torque that the LCA has to resist, applied through about a 6 inch lever. If it is correct then to say that we have 3000 x 1-1/2ft/lbs that converts to 4500 ft/lbs, or about the equivalent of me jumping up and down on a 20 foot lever and I guarantee something in that suspension is going to give. So there's your wheel hop. Not such a mystery anymore, is it?

Jim


Moderator
Curtis Jacobson
Portland Oregon
(4269 posts)

Registered:
10/12/2007 02:16AM

Main British Car:
71 MGBGT, Buick 215

authors avatar
Re: MGB Roadmaster
Posted by: Moderator
Date: November 06, 2007 12:37PM

Fred Puhn's book is excellent... but when you're thinking about engineering your own IRS you've moved on to other territory. I'd recommend "Tune to Win" by Carroll Smith. It has long, detailed, extensively illustrated suspension chapters. That were written primarily for people designing their own open-wheel race car suspensions (e.g. "Formula Fords"), but all the same physics will apply to your IRS. All the Carroll Smith books are outstanding, by the way.

Have you ever spoken with Tom Hoagland? He has recently retired from doing MGB V8 conversions (he formerly operated a shop in Michigan under the name "Richland Motor Cars"), but while he was in the game he built up several Jag IRS MGBs. I don't remember too much of our discussion about them, but one thing I remember was he stressed his preference for working with the E-type IRS vs. the later components.

I don't know if this contact info will still work for Tom:

P.O. Box 311
Palmyra, MI 93010
telephone: (517) 410-7628
e-mail: Tom_Hoagland@hotmail.com


Citron
Stephen DeGroat
Lugoff, SC
(354 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 09:43PM

Main British Car:
1970 MGBGT V6, 7004R, AC, matching trailer 3.1 liter

Re: MGB Roadmaster
Posted by: Citron
Date: November 07, 2007 08:07AM

Wow! You people have lost me. If it helps any, I plan to bring my Jag when I come up with the 455. We can look at a working model.

Steve


Bob in Vancouver
Bob Elwin

(5 posts)

Registered:
11/11/2007 08:40PM

Main British Car:


Re: MGB Roadmaster
Posted by: Bob in Vancouver
Date: November 12, 2007 02:35AM

Hi Jim, I've been following this project with interest - it should be one torquey beast when complete! Reading what you wrote about the Jaguar IRS and the torque loads on the control arms and the uprights got me thinking about the design of that system.
It strikes me that the torque reaction to the rotating drive shaft - which is transmitted to the body structure of a beam axle car through leaf springs and spring shackles or by ams attaching the axle to the body is quite a different scenario to an IRS set-up where the differential is bolted solidly to the body structure.
In this case the torque reaction would be transmitted to the body by the differential mounts and the suspension from there on out would not be subject to those loads. This should mean that the outboard suspension would not need to be that strong in a rotationally resistant sense and this is probably the reason for the inboard discs with their mounting points being part of the differential assembly as then the braking torque loads are also not placed on the uprights or the control arm - only the drive shafts
The suspension still has the job of locating the rear wheels vertically, fore and aft and laterally and of absorbing full braking and acceleration loads in a fore and aft sense. So hopefully the only new control arm needed would be the lower trailing arm, similar to the Jaguar item, to provide fore and aft stability for the wheels. I look forward to seeing how this conversion runs as I have been thinking of a Jaguar IRS for my car for some time. Its great to see a cooperative effort like this and I wish it every success. Bob Elwin


BlownMGB-V8
Jim Blackwood
9406 Gunpowder Rd., Florence, KY 41042
(5103 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 12:59PM

Main British Car:
1971 MGB Blown,Injected,Intercooled Buick 340/AA80E/JagIRS

authors avatar
Re: MGB Roadmaster
Posted by: BlownMGB-V8
Date: November 12, 2007 12:25PM

I believe you are right Bob, that does make perfect sense. However, the arm still needs to resist the force of the tire gripping the ground and acting as a lever against the anchor point, which is the upright pivot. So with a 24" diameter tire (for simplicity) transmitting 3000 ft/lbs of torque to the pavement that means 3000 lbs of acceleration force is being applied ( 3000 X half the tire diameter or 1 ft.) to the pivot which is halfway between the contact patch and the stub shaft or the center of the wheel. That (roughly) 6" distance means that at least half of that torque will indeed be transmitted through the torque arm simply because there is no other member to resist twist on the arm developed as a result of the acceleration force from the contact patch, even if there is a radius arm attached at the pivot to absorb linear acceleration forces. Does that sound right? I still think it is this twisting force that generates the wheel hop and it makes sense to me that an upper link could control it quite easily. What you just pointed out though is that the link only needs to be about a third as strong as I had originally thought, a great advantage.

I will try to contact Tom Hoagland later today. I haven't gotten much done on the car in the last week other than theorizing. Jim Stuart is going to send one of the wheels so we can set the hub to hub distance and shorten the arms and shafts, but we need one hub. I can machine the new stud pattern but I don't want to set up the mill for that until I have both parts since it involves removing the vise and dialing in the index table. I'd much rather not have to do that twice. The stud pattern has to be machined before the hubs can be assembled into the uprights, and the uprights have to be assembled before the half-shaft length can be determined. So I really need someone to find us a hub and send it to me. That's the flange that the wheel bolts to. One is good but the other one is broken under the inner bearing race. We might be able to get by with using it that way, but it's risky since the bearing wouldn't be supported properly. I don't think that is the sort of risk we should be taking on this car.

Jim
MVC-282S.JPG
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