MG Sports Cars

engine swaps and other performance upgrades, plus "factory" and Costello V8s

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BlownMGB-V8
Jim Blackwood
9406 Gunpowder Rd., Florence, KY 41042
(5239 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 12:59PM

Main British Car:
1971 MGB Blown,Injected,Intercooled Buick 340/AA80E/JagIRS

authors avatar
Re: MGB Roadmaster
Posted by: BlownMGB-V8
Date: September 19, 2016 06:47PM

I went ahead and mounted a 5/8" swaybar. Had to space it down 1-1/2" and forward 3/8". Don't have any downlinks to go with it though.

Jim

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MGBV8
Carl Floyd
Kingsport, TN
(3139 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 11:32PM

Main British Car:
79 MGB, Buick 215

authors avatar
Re: MGB Roadmaster
Posted by: MGBV8
Date: September 19, 2016 07:17PM

I wonder if Jim Watson might have an extra set?


BlownMGB-V8
Jim Blackwood
9406 Gunpowder Rd., Florence, KY 41042
(5239 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 12:59PM

Main British Car:
1971 MGB Blown,Injected,Intercooled Buick 340/AA80E/JagIRS

authors avatar
Re: MGB Roadmaster
Posted by: BlownMGB-V8
Date: September 20, 2016 05:24PM

Good idea Carl. I sent him an email and he's got them, so I installed the pair for my roadster and will replace them with those. Shouldn't need them before the Townsend meet.

That made a definite and positive difference. The trailing throttle oversteer is gone, (still possible to induce but no longer waiting to sneak up on you) along with the slightly uncertain feel that was there. Took a drive down Hathaway Rd and back. Yep, vastly improved. Y'all are gonna like this.

I then began playing with the EPS adjustment knob. Much more usable now, over pretty much the full range.

Jim


MGBV8
Carl Floyd
Kingsport, TN
(3139 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 11:32PM

Main British Car:
79 MGB, Buick 215

authors avatar
Re: MGB Roadmaster
Posted by: MGBV8
Date: September 21, 2016 08:56AM

How long have I been pounding the table about a sway bar? ;)

The GS Nationals was THE perfect venue for the MG Roadmaster. Although it is a heavily drag racing oriented event. How is it this was the first time? BTW, you know what they say, "Didn't happen without pics." Surely Matt or Edith can run a phone camera. I knew you would be swamped in conversation.

Glad it was well received. Figured it would be.


BlownMGB-V8
Jim Blackwood
9406 Gunpowder Rd., Florence, KY 41042
(5239 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 12:59PM

Main British Car:
1971 MGB Blown,Injected,Intercooled Buick 340/AA80E/JagIRS

authors avatar
Re: MGB Roadmaster
Posted by: BlownMGB-V8
Date: September 21, 2016 10:15AM

Well, you were right of course but still, I think the swaybar is the last thing to tune in the suspension other than tire pressures, and the EPS did considerably affect the handling feel if not the ultimate grip limits. The car is now very fast, and very safe. Takes a lot to make it slide. We should explore the limits and also see what the wet grip looks like with those Fuzions on the rear, their wet traction ratings weren't as high as the Continentals and that could make it tail happy in the wet.

If we make it to the GS Nationals again, I would hope we'll have somewhat more attendance and maybe an amateur photographer in the crowd. Agreed we should have gotten there sooner, but on the plus side, at least the car was complete enough it could have made a pass down the strip if weather conditions would have allowed. By next year I should have my car tested to the point where I can take it there. Perhaps we could consider making this one of our annually attended events? I did see a couple of Mustangs there and if we invade with a fleet of BOPR conversions I doubt the Ford converted cars would generate much objection. At the very worst they could hang out with the Mustangs, which were sort of off to the side.

Next on the list is mounting the A/C compressor, which will require relocating the top radiator hose and possibly the driver's side coil pack. Also incidentally, we have an MG OEM brake booster to hand, I wonder if that could be adapted to Bill Guzman's big master cylinder? I'll try to get the compressor mounted before Townsend.

Jim



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/21/2016 11:03AM by BlownMGB-V8.


MGBV8
Carl Floyd
Kingsport, TN
(3139 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 11:32PM

Main British Car:
79 MGB, Buick 215

authors avatar
Re: MGB Roadmaster
Posted by: MGBV8
Date: September 21, 2016 05:46PM

I had a '68 Chevelle SS & have owned a '68 Camaro for35 years, I don't hang out with Mustangs. ;)

Wet grip should be quite scary with that wide of a foot print. Much less force per square inch.


lawnvett
PJ Lenihan
Winston-Salem, NC
(439 posts)

Registered:
04/29/2009 11:37AM

Main British Car:
74 MGB-GT 3.4 V-6 crate, 5 spd

Re: MGB Roadmaster
Posted by: lawnvett
Date: September 26, 2016 04:34PM

Jim,

sounds like the progress you're making is increasing your driving pleasure, and that's a very good thing.

PJ



BlownMGB-V8
Jim Blackwood
9406 Gunpowder Rd., Florence, KY 41042
(5239 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 12:59PM

Main British Car:
1971 MGB Blown,Injected,Intercooled Buick 340/AA80E/JagIRS

authors avatar
Re: MGB Roadmaster
Posted by: BlownMGB-V8
Date: September 26, 2016 05:55PM

PJ, I've just been trying to get a few things dialed in, in time for everyone to try it out at Townsend in a couple weeks. You know how it is once you get everything just the way it should be in a car like this. Remove all the little irritations and leave the pleasure. That's what I've been shooting for. And I think I've gotten most of the major ones out of the way now, at least for local trips. (The noise and the seat belts still will irritate on any long drive but maybe in time we can do something about that. I guess we'll need to talk about it. I sealed up the brake booster this morning and will test drive it tomorrow but I expect that to be fixed. A few other fairly minor things also which cascaded from the brake and swaybar work, so I think it's in proper shape to drive to WV next weekend for the WVBCC Seneca Park picnic and the Milton Pumpkin Festival parade. (No immediate plans to drive it in the parade but who knows?) I know, I know. Take pictures. Never was good at selfies though. I'll have to go grab my camera.

I've probably been working on it more than I've been driving it, but that's only because I already know how good it can be once we are done with working on it and I want to get to that point. And the sooner the better.

I don't expect to do anything else to it between now and Townsend, the next thing is the A/C compressor and that means draining coolant, rerouting the upper radiator hose, modding the thermostat neck, and such and I want time to do that right when I do since everything is going to be so tight. I'll need time to think about what I'm doing. Hmm... That's assuming I'm driving it back from Townsend I guess.

Jim



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/28/2016 10:30AM by BlownMGB-V8.


lawnvett
PJ Lenihan
Winston-Salem, NC
(439 posts)

Registered:
04/29/2009 11:37AM

Main British Car:
74 MGB-GT 3.4 V-6 crate, 5 spd

Re: MGB Roadmaster
Posted by: lawnvett
Date: September 27, 2016 09:33PM

You should drive drive drive

I look forward to seeing everyone..


BlownMGB-V8
Jim Blackwood
9406 Gunpowder Rd., Florence, KY 41042
(5239 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 12:59PM

Main British Car:
1971 MGB Blown,Injected,Intercooled Buick 340/AA80E/JagIRS

authors avatar
Re: MGB Roadmaster
Posted by: BlownMGB-V8
Date: September 28, 2016 08:07PM

Dangerous when wet.

I went driving in the rain today and we have a problem here. The car is dangerous, and not just a little. I think maybe we made a mistake with those Fuzion tires on the rear.

I first noticed a problem turning right on red when I got excessive wheelspin. Didn't get concerned but decided it'd be a good idea to check the traction limits. It's a good thing I did too because that's the least of our concerns.

There's not a lot of grip under acceleration. But, it takes a fairly heavy foot to spin the tires. That by itself wouldn't tell you the danger. Next I found a safe spot and tried the brakes. On a wet road, the back brakes ALWAYS lock up well in advance of the front brakes and cause the car to go sideways. This happens while the front tires still have very good grip so you can see what the result of this is going to be. A very, very dangerous imbalance. Next I took it into the corners and on one tight hairpin where I was going 15-20mph the rear broke loose in dramatic fashion, causing a complete 180 degree spin.

Now you guys know me. I was fully expecting to cause some tire slippage, and expected to counter steer, back off, and reign it in. It's not like I was moving that fast. But it was such a rapid and radical breakaway that it was too far gone before I could do anything at all. And then there I was sitting in the curve at a dead stop facing the wrong way. That's not right.

The problem is not just that the rear tires are slippery when wet. It's also that the front tires have quite good grip in the wet. You combine those two and this is what you get. A dangerous car.

Please understand I'm not placing blame (except on the tires). We didn't know. But now we do. The ratings and reviews for both tires are posted now and they support this analysis.

I recommend we put a new set of Continentals on that match the fronts before somebody wrecks this thing and gets hurt.

Jim



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/28/2016 08:08PM by BlownMGB-V8.


Citron
Stephen DeGroat
Lugoff, SC
(356 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 09:43PM

Main British Car:
1970 MGBGT V6, 7004R, AC, matching trailer 3.1 liter

Re: MGB Roadmaster
Posted by: Citron
Date: September 29, 2016 09:07AM

Jim,
Could the evil handling have anything to do with the sway bar? When Hap drove it he said if we did anything to the suspension he would recommend a rear bar.
Before buying tires maybe the bar should be disconnected and the driven in the rain again.
If that has no effect, what is the condition of the front tires. If they are old maybe we can balance the car by replacing them since the rears are new.
Could you try your tires on the back for comparison.
Just thinking.

Steve


MGBV8
Carl Floyd
Kingsport, TN
(3139 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 11:32PM

Main British Car:
79 MGB, Buick 215

authors avatar
Re: MGB Roadmaster
Posted by: MGBV8
Date: September 29, 2016 10:02AM

Well, he said the front tires were sticking. it's not the front sway bar. If anything it needs more front bar to correct oversteer. A rear bar would make it worse. Could be the tire compound. Could be the fat footprint & not much weight on the rear tires. My truck is just as bad in the wet.

Take the corners easy in the wet. Put 100-200 pounds in the back & see if that helps.


BlownMGB-V8
Jim Blackwood
9406 Gunpowder Rd., Florence, KY 41042
(5239 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 12:59PM

Main British Car:
1971 MGB Blown,Injected,Intercooled Buick 340/AA80E/JagIRS

authors avatar
Re: MGB Roadmaster
Posted by: BlownMGB-V8
Date: September 29, 2016 11:02AM

In the dry it holds the road well. I haven't had it to the traction limits lately because they are high, but I suppose I could use the church lot for a skidpad. Anyway I think the problem is that the Fuzions lose a lot more grip in the rain whereas the Continentals are still very grippy when wet. I looked up the traction ratings for both tires, and the feedback reports and this is confirmed there. The Continentals are rated high for wet grip and praised in the comments. The Fuzions are rated low for wet grip and castigated harshly. Both tires are a lot more even in the dry. This makes for a dangerous combination. Nothing we could possibly do with swaybars could have even a ghost of a chance of fixing this. If we get wet grip it'll totally screw up the dry handling, probably make it plow ridiculously. (And the swaybar I mounted is the stock 5/8" bar. Hardly enough to cause this problem.)

It's a tire imbalance, pure and simple. The fix is to put the same tire on both ends. If the Continentals are too expensive, put Fuzions on the front and then don't let anyone drive it in the rain. It'd be a lot safer than it is now, at least then when you lost grip both ends would slide and there would be some chance to recover from it. As it is now, at the first sign of loss of grip the car swaps ends.

But I'll try to do that skidpad thing today to confirm. It had Continentals all around when Hap drove it. It handled well then, wet or dry. In fact it was really surprising how good it was in the wet. That's gone. It's pretty clear to me the Fuzion tires are the reason.

Jim

EDIT: Just ran that test. The car is still very reasonably balanced in the dry. A hint of understeer at the limits. It would take some effort and a heavy throttle to spin it out. So dry, still just fine. Wet, donut monster.

Somebody please give me the authority to fix this!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/29/2016 11:50AM by BlownMGB-V8.


MGBV8
Carl Floyd
Kingsport, TN
(3139 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 11:32PM

Main British Car:
79 MGB, Buick 215

authors avatar
Re: MGB Roadmaster
Posted by: MGBV8
Date: September 29, 2016 12:00PM

I really do not like doing mismatched tire sets, as I said via email discussion last November.
Quote:
Non-matching tires is generally not recommended. Especially if the tread pattern, speed rating, tire hardness, sidewall stiffness, manufacturer, etc, are not the same or very close. It can lead to unpredictable handling & uneven tread wear. Of course, in our case, we can't rotate them anyway.



BlownMGB-V8
Jim Blackwood
9406 Gunpowder Rd., Florence, KY 41042
(5239 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 12:59PM

Main British Car:
1971 MGB Blown,Injected,Intercooled Buick 340/AA80E/JagIRS

authors avatar
Re: MGB Roadmaster
Posted by: BlownMGB-V8
Date: September 29, 2016 12:52PM

Yes, you were right. I don't know if we didn't have the tire ratings then or just didn't look at them but it doesn't matter the results are the same. For reference:

Continentals: Dry rating: 8.8, Wet rating: 8.8
Fuzions: Dry rating: 6.5, Wet rating: 4.3

I think this explains the problem.

[www.tirerack.com]

[www.tirerack.com]

Jim



lawnvett
PJ Lenihan
Winston-Salem, NC
(439 posts)

Registered:
04/29/2009 11:37AM

Main British Car:
74 MGB-GT 3.4 V-6 crate, 5 spd

Re: MGB Roadmaster
Posted by: lawnvett
Date: September 30, 2016 03:58PM

ake the corners easy in the wet. Put 100-200 pounds in the back & see if that helps.

Carl might have something here

I usually drove with luggage, extra oil, anti freeze,water,tools, a battery jump starter the old heavy style.

sometimes a passenger..

How about tire pressure???????

PJ


BlownMGB-V8
Jim Blackwood
9406 Gunpowder Rd., Florence, KY 41042
(5239 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 12:59PM

Main British Car:
1971 MGB Blown,Injected,Intercooled Buick 340/AA80E/JagIRS

authors avatar
Re: MGB Roadmaster
Posted by: BlownMGB-V8
Date: October 10, 2016 02:27PM

I'll write up a report for the meet and the B.A.D.A.S.S. business meeting. Probably leave out some things, insert personal comments that are inappropriate, get things wrong and stuff like that but anyone can feel free to make corrections.

The car made it down there fine, though the clutch slave is going out and the speedo cable failed. Both should be fairly easy fixes as it's an external slave (pull type though) and Jim Watson donated a couple of serviceable used cables, one shorter and one longer but we'll see what we can do with them. I calculated 18.5 mpg on the first tank, after that the odo was unreliable. It went through several ounces of clutch fluid but made it home just fine, occasionally burping fluid out of the slave for no apparent reason, usually at inappropriate times. Jim also gave me some swaybar parts to replace the parts off my car I had installed on the Roadmaster for this trip.

I forget who all drove the car, checking out the new steering and brakes but I heard a lot of positive comments and no negative ones so I'd say that was a win. Even Carl liked the power steering. The brakes are very unobtrusive and you'd only notice anything different if you'd recently driven it without the booster. But it's vastly improved when holding the car still on an incline. It means we had to go to a single strut to hold the hood open which is less than ideal, but I was able to adjust it so it closes OK (slightly less than perfect but acceptable) and doesn't have hood-droop when open.

Carl brought and donated a complete dealer installed late MGB airconditioning system that had been pulled because the car didn't have enough power. We will be able to use much of that to install A/C in the car. Thank you Carl! I am donating a known good GM pancake type compressor, Charles Long is looking to see if he has a better condenser, and PJ said he'd donate $100 towards the hoses and such that will be needed.

Also, it rained Saturday morning so Carl was able to do a short test drive in the wet before the business meeting. If I understood him correctly, I believe he said the car was a bit tail happy but he can elaborate on that if he wishes. PJ and I drove it on the Dragon later in the day in the company of Mike Moor, Rick Ingram, Carl Floyd, Robert and Dreama Milks and confirmed that the rear tires are a bit less grippy than the fronts on dry pavement, but not tail happy like it is in the rain. More on that in a bit, on to the business meeting.

We convened above the Tally-Ho office with Rick presiding. Roberts was nodded to if not strictly followed and we had most of those members present at the meet in attendance. I'll mess up the order of discussion so I'm just going to strive for completeness. Again feel free to correct as these will become the minutes of the meeting. We had vacancies among the officers, there not being a Secretary elected and the VP having stepped down. It was decided to combine these two offices and a volunteer solicited for nomination. No one stepping forward I offered to do it with the understanding that my skills as Secretary are lacking. That was deemed acceptable so until Lewisburg I will act as VP/Secretary and we can elect officers then, provided an election is called.

The Treasurer's report showed we had a bill for insurance of about $500 due next month, outstanding receipts of about $400 ($408.19 actual current) and an unknown situation in regards to any proceeds that might or might not be forthcoming from the last V8 meet, so we shouldn't be expecting anything. That report was quickly followed up by discussion about the tires, the upshot of which was that the Continentals on the front, though still grippy and with good tread, are now 7 years old while the rears are 9 months old. Following much discussion of both that and the future plans for the car itself it was decided by motion and vote to replace the front tires with new ones that match the rear tires, thereby correcting the tail happy handling issue and extending the life of the tires at the minimum cost. We recognized that overall grip will decline both in dry and wet conditions but the handling will be balanced and therefore safer overall. Our cost will be around $200 total though Jim Watson is checking on lower pricing before we do it. It was suggested that if we end up keeping the car we can discuss better tires at that time. Voting on this decision was near unanimous with some abstaining.

On the issue of the future of the car, much discussion occurred as you might expect, all of it respectful. Basically though we are in a situation where it seems we need competent legal counsel to determine what of our options are viable. As Rick has connections with the Louisville British car club which has recently been dealing with a similar issue he feels he can get us some free advice from that quarter and our goal is to have enough information to be in a position to discuss a decision in Lewisburg. Carl's comment that we have kicked the can a bit further down the road is apt, but at least we will be better informed. At this time it appears that our decision at French Lick to sell the car and fund this site and the annual BritishV8 meet may have been ill advised for legal reasons but hopefully we will have some clarification before long. One suggestion was that we simply give the car to a suitable charity but I don't know if that is advisable either. One problem with this scheme is the naming of a charity. I'd think an organization that is pursuing a way of screening for colon cancer without poking a tube up your backside would be something everyone could get behind but... Oops inappropriate personal comment, nevermind. Of course, if we have adequate enthusiasm, participation and support, we can continue to campaign the car with the original goals of encouraging creativity in the younger generations and interest in LBC conversions which we can continue to do for as long as we have the needed participation. If this meeting was an indication that should be feasible for the immediate future but regardless we should have a plan in place for when it no longer is.

We had a motion passed that other than maintenance and upkeep we not do any more modification of the car that would be charged against the treasury without Board approval (I think it was the Board) which reminds me, when discussing the officers we agreed to set up a board of some sort and get our mailing list in order. I think everyone present wanted on the mailing list, which formerly included about 8 or 9 of the most active members. It was decided that I would get Rick a copy of the membership spreadsheet, as updated as I could make it with the notes I have, and everyone on that list would be given the option to either receive group emails or to opt out if they wish to be inactive or not involved.

So back to the mods, this basically means the A/C is to be funded by earmarked individual donations unless we get far enough along that the Board can approve finishing it up at some point. Luckily most everything else is pretty much done except the axle gears which we forgot to discuss. But we really don't have enough money to fix it either right now anyway so for the time being it will have to proceed on the same basis if it proceeds at all, even though it could be rightfully said that it is a maintenance item. I have a few parts that could go towards that (in particular a new housing), but we'll need a posi, a set of gears, and new bearings and seals so it's unlikely to be fixed before Lewisburg. If anyone wants to contribute to that particular issue you can contact me or Rick about it. I would recommend a Power-Lok differential and either 3.08 or 3.23 gears rather than the 2.88 gears presently in the car but that is something we should discuss and much hinges on parts availability, cost, used vs new, etc.

It was agreed that a formal meeting of B.A.D.A.S.S. would be held at the Lewisburg 2017 BritishV8 meet, time, date and place to be set later and the meeting was adjourned.

Please submit any corrections, additions or revisions to the minutes hereafter. A few days to do so would be reasonable, after which the minutes will stand as written.

Jim
Secretary: B.A.D.A.S.S.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/11/2016 02:18PM by MGBV8.


lawnvett
PJ Lenihan
Winston-Salem, NC
(439 posts)

Registered:
04/29/2009 11:37AM

Main British Car:
74 MGB-GT 3.4 V-6 crate, 5 spd

Re: MGB Roadmaster
Posted by: lawnvett
Date: October 12, 2016 05:38AM

Thanks Jim,

You've got most of it here and since you took no shorthand and didn't have a digital audio recording device, I'm impressed with you recall.

One addition, I did volunteer to continue to serve as Director of transportation for RM.

respectively submitted.

PJ Lenihan
aka Roadmeister


BlownMGB-V8
Jim Blackwood
9406 Gunpowder Rd., Florence, KY 41042
(5239 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 12:59PM

Main British Car:
1971 MGB Blown,Injected,Intercooled Buick 340/AA80E/JagIRS

authors avatar
Re: MGB Roadmaster
Posted by: BlownMGB-V8
Date: October 12, 2016 08:45AM

So noted. Any other additions, corrections or amendments to the minutes?

Jim


BlownMGB-V8
Jim Blackwood
9406 Gunpowder Rd., Florence, KY 41042
(5239 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 12:59PM

Main British Car:
1971 MGB Blown,Injected,Intercooled Buick 340/AA80E/JagIRS

authors avatar
Re: MGB Roadmaster
Posted by: BlownMGB-V8
Date: October 24, 2016 03:05PM

Minutes stand approved.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Status update on the car:

New issues:
-Clutch slave needs new seals. I believe this was a Tilton slave. Donated by Mantell Motorsports while the car was in their custody. It is a "Pull" cylinder. Currently the car can be driven but requires frequent fluid refills, has reduced actuating range, and occasionally pukes fluid. We need replacement seals.

-Shifter needs a new bushing. It has been getting loose and recently popped out. Luckily I was able to wobble it around and get it back in place. We need a new bushing.

-Vibration in the driveline. I suspect a halfshaft universal may be going out, it has been getting progressively worse.

Known issues:
-Noise in differential. Getting worse, still driveable. There has been some discussion about fixing this, so far nothing official.

-Left front shock. Bushings and seals are shot. Fluid runs out freely. We need a serviceable OEM replacement. Used is acceptable if it doesn't leak.

-New speedo cable. Parts from Jim Watson are not an exact fit but could be made to work.

-A/C install. Long term project, not covered under routine maintenance and repair.

-Front tire replacement: Waiting on a report from Jim Watson, he wanted to do a price check first. Not particularly urgent.

We have a few guys coming up to the Lab the weekend of the 5th for a LBC work weekend and may do some maintenance to the RM then if we have the time and manpower. Others are welcome to stop by. For the time being the car is limited to local trips.

Jim
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