MG Sports Cars

engine swaps and other performance upgrades, plus "factory" and Costello V8s

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Citron
Stephen DeGroat
Lugoff, SC
(365 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 09:43PM

Main British Car:
1970 MGBGT V6, 7004R, AC, matching trailer 3.1 liter

Re: MGB Roadmaster
Posted by: Citron
Date: February 13, 2008 09:50PM

Jim,
I am planning to come up the end of April not March. My mistake.

Steve


BlownMGB-V8
Jim Blackwood
9406 Gunpowder Rd., Florence, KY 41042
(5821 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 12:59PM

Main British Car:
1971 MGB Blown,Injected,Intercooled Buick 340/AA80E/JagIRS

authors avatar
Re: MGB Roadmaster
Posted by: BlownMGB-V8
Date: February 13, 2008 11:21PM

That will probably make it much more likely that we can get the engine ready for transport by by then. In the meantime I'll fit up the front unit, determine track for the rear and get some steel for the lower control arms on the rear. Then in my spare time (yeah, like I'm going to have any of that scarce commodity) I'll straighten and fit sheet metal panels. Somewhere along the line I think I'm going to have to get a mig welder. Maybe Harbour freight will come up with a good sale.

Jim


accobraman50
Arthur Mitchell
Chicago
(43 posts)

Registered:
01/27/2008 08:14PM

Main British Car:
1965 Butler Racing AC Cobra replica 350 SBC

authors avatar
Re: MGB Roadmaster
Posted by: accobraman50
Date: February 14, 2008 12:15AM

Hi Jim, Here is a list of items I'm donating towards the Roadmaster project:

1: Rebuilt, complete MGB front suspension with 11" vented brakes. one grease cap removal tool.
2: New rack & pinion steering with new ball joints.
3: 2- Rebuilt steering u-joints. Misc. hardware, thrust washers, spacers.
4: 12" long 48 spline intermediate steering shaft.
5: New MSD Programmable timing computer #8981. This was fitted to my Cobra then removed after fitting.
6: New MSD Soft-Touch Rev Control #8738. Was fitted to cobra then removed.
7: Two Aldan AS-656-G adjustable shocks. Fitted to cobra then removed.
8: One quart catch-can/overflow tank.

As you may not have use for everything, you mentioned that Ebay may be a source of revenue when you sell what you don't need. I've listed the items here so other members may get first pick.

See you Friday,

Arthur



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/14/2008 04:51AM by accobraman50.


V6 Midget
Bill Young
Kansas City, MO
(1337 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 09:23AM

Main British Car:
'73 MG Midget V6 , '59 MGA I6 2.8 GM, 4.0 Jeep

authors avatar
Re: MGB Roadmaster
Posted by: V6 Midget
Date: February 14, 2008 07:49AM

Jim, I've looked at the HF units and I'm not impressed. I have been looking for another MIG machine for myself and have found several units at good prices on Craigslist. I suggest that when you're ready take a look there. Here's an example that's priced hundreds less than when new. [kansascity.craigslist.org]


BlownMGB-V8
Jim Blackwood
9406 Gunpowder Rd., Florence, KY 41042
(5821 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 12:59PM

Main British Car:
1971 MGB Blown,Injected,Intercooled Buick 340/AA80E/JagIRS

authors avatar
Re: MGB Roadmaster
Posted by: BlownMGB-V8
Date: February 14, 2008 09:46AM

Thanks Arthur, see you tomorrow. My wife and son will be coming as well, so we're looking forward to the tour and may get there just a little early depending on traffic.

Bill, thanks for the tip. I guess as a rule cheaper is generally cheaper, but I really don't expect to be able to spend more than a couple hundred on one. Always looking for a bargain though., and there's no tremendous rush. I've got the gas torch and the stick welder and can get by quite well with those until a deal comes along, but I certainly appreciate any leads.

Jim


BlownMGB-V8
Jim Blackwood
9406 Gunpowder Rd., Florence, KY 41042
(5821 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 12:59PM

Main British Car:
1971 MGB Blown,Injected,Intercooled Buick 340/AA80E/JagIRS

authors avatar
Re: MGB Roadmaster
Posted by: BlownMGB-V8
Date: February 14, 2008 03:28PM

Bill, please call me at (859) 816-2187. The guy is willing to deal on that welder and one of us should get the benefit of it.

Jim


rficalora
Rob Ficalora
Willis, TX
(2633 posts)

Registered:
10/24/2007 02:46PM

Main British Car:
'76 MGB w/CB front, Sebring rear, early metal dash Ford 302

authors avatar
Re: MGB Roadmaster
Posted by: rficalora
Date: February 14, 2008 04:49PM

Check this one out good guys. I may be wrong, but could swear I saw the same pics on one of the TX (Hou, Dallas, Austin. San Anton) craigslist sites sometime in the last 6 months.



BlownMGB-V8
Jim Blackwood
9406 Gunpowder Rd., Florence, KY 41042
(5821 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 12:59PM

Main British Car:
1971 MGB Blown,Injected,Intercooled Buick 340/AA80E/JagIRS

authors avatar
Re: MGB Roadmaster
Posted by: BlownMGB-V8
Date: February 14, 2008 09:35PM

Thanks Rob. Bill is going to make arrangements with him to go get it, I'm sure he'll be able to find an outlet to plug into and fire it up if he feels it's necessary. No money will change hands beforehand so we should be OK.

Jim


BlownMGB-V8
Jim Blackwood
9406 Gunpowder Rd., Florence, KY 41042
(5821 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 12:59PM

Main British Car:
1971 MGB Blown,Injected,Intercooled Buick 340/AA80E/JagIRS

authors avatar
Re: MGB Roadmaster
Posted by: BlownMGB-V8
Date: February 15, 2008 08:38AM

Had a touch of insomnia last night so I spent some quality time on the IRS design. It was all in my head so I'll have to look at the actual parts to see what will work but I got a lot of the details of the LCA fleshed out including inner pivots and mounting cushions, and I've pretty much decided on 1-1/4" x .125" wall tubing which will be substantially stronger than the 1-1/8 I'd been considering. Well, off to Indy with us..

Jim


BlownMGB-V8
Jim Blackwood
9406 Gunpowder Rd., Florence, KY 41042
(5821 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 12:59PM

Main British Car:
1971 MGB Blown,Injected,Intercooled Buick 340/AA80E/JagIRS

authors avatar
Re: MGB Roadmaster
Posted by: BlownMGB-V8
Date: February 15, 2008 09:35PM

What a day it's been. Sorry to say Arthur got stuck on I-65 an hour or so from Indy and had to spend over 2 hours sitting and waiting for a wreck to be cleared from the freeway and we all know what a frustrating ordeal something like that is likely to be. Luckily we were in touch by cell phone and an hour in had everyone at the desk of the museum trying to find out what had happened, but information was slow in getting out. By the time I was able to call and pass on what little information we could get, traffic had started moving again. I sure hope he had better luck getting back home. For our part, we got to sit in the Indy rush hour traffic coming back so nobody completely escaped the mess. What was I thinking setting this up for a Friday? Fortunately there was plenty to distract us at the museum while we waited there, I only wish Arthur had it so easy. But in due course he made it in. Turned out we weren't quite as close to the midpoint as I had expected, I think he traveled about 180 miles, maybe a bit more, while we went about 130 one way and 140 the other, but it certainly was a good place to meet and I think we all enjoyed looking at the cars that were on display there. The parking lot was quiet, uncrowded and a perfect place for taking the parts from his van and loading them into the back of my truck.

So the transfer was made and we're now back home. Beautiful parts too, I must say. In the morning I'll do a proper inventory, for now I'm content to let them rest in my trunk while I rest from the day's activities.

Arthur once again I must thank you for this most generous contribution and you may rest assured that in doing so I am expressing the gratitude and appreciation of each and every one of us who have embarked on this quest. We welcome you to our ranks with open arms, and look very much forward to meeting again at the summer meet.

psst: Guys, he should have his Cobra running by then. Now that's a car I want a ride in for sure!

Jim


accobraman50
Arthur Mitchell
Chicago
(43 posts)

Registered:
01/27/2008 08:14PM

Main British Car:
1965 Butler Racing AC Cobra replica 350 SBC

authors avatar
Re: MGB Roadmaster
Posted by: accobraman50
Date: February 17, 2008 02:59AM

The trip home was a breeze. When I reached the site of the accident on my way back, traffic South bound was still backed up for a mile or more and the debris clean-up was still in progress. Bad day for a couple of truck drivers.

Jim, When I got back to the shop I found that I did not pack the 12" splined shaft. It will stay in my steel rod supply unless someone has use for it.

Regards,

Arthur


accobraman50
Arthur Mitchell
Chicago
(43 posts)

Registered:
01/27/2008 08:14PM

Main British Car:
1965 Butler Racing AC Cobra replica 350 SBC

authors avatar
Re: MGB Roadmaster
Posted by: accobraman50
Date: February 17, 2008 03:52AM

Jim, have you seen these IRS suspension mods?

Arthur

[www.streetrodgarage.com]

[www.cp-performance.com]


BlownMGB-V8
Jim Blackwood
9406 Gunpowder Rd., Florence, KY 41042
(5821 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 12:59PM

Main British Car:
1971 MGB Blown,Injected,Intercooled Buick 340/AA80E/JagIRS

authors avatar
Re: MGB Roadmaster
Posted by: BlownMGB-V8
Date: February 17, 2008 11:38AM

Thanks Arthur, quite interesting to be sure. The MG is probably Kevin Jackson's car, he posted a photo on page 3 above and has been a lot of help in sorting out the IRS. The other link is something I hadn't seen before but it has some nice touches. The inboard coil-overs have the wow factor, but unless we were building an open wheel car where wind resistance was a factor I don't see much point in them and would rather have the inboard brakes for unsprung weight reduction. I do like the easy toe-in adjustment link though and a top link is an advantage. I'd like to see more spread on the LCA pickup points or a triangulated UCA for better thrust control but it looks like a decent design. Might not fit under an MG without major modifications. At the very least the battery boxes would have to go. Also the way the toe in adjustment link is made reduces the rigidity of the LCA in torsion to a significant degree. With a triangulated UCA it wouldn't matter because there'd be no torsion but the two point link gives no resistance to acceleration forces.

I do have a question or two about the IFS. This is an Arntz/Butler unit right? Is there a page where I can look at the specs for it? I'd like to know what calipers and rotors it uses, others on this board may be interested in going to a chevy lug pattern. I noticed on the Cobra board that they use Camaro, Jag, Nissan and Mustang brakes and I'm just wondering how much interchange there may be between them and in what ways. This is an area where I think we have much to learn from the Cobra people and it could give us a lot of wheel and brake options that we don't now have. I recall you mentioned that these are the 12" Camaro brakes and I see where there is also a 10.75" chevy option which would require a different caliper of course but could be useful for someone who wants to stay with the 14" rim size. Believe it or not, there are a few out there, and I also run 14" wheels on my car currently, though that is likely to change within the next year or two.

I must confess I tend to hibernate through this part of the year so I still haven't unloaded the truck. I did open the box with the sparky parts and had a quick look, but I'll no doubt have more questions as we go along if you don't mind.

Jim


accobraman50
Arthur Mitchell
Chicago
(43 posts)

Registered:
01/27/2008 08:14PM

Main British Car:
1965 Butler Racing AC Cobra replica 350 SBC

authors avatar
Re: MGB Roadmaster
Posted by: accobraman50
Date: February 17, 2008 07:18PM

Hi Jim,

I've just gone through my records to refresh and reboot my brain on what was involved in doing the Cobra brakes. The brake rotors are 11" diameter 1968 Camaro. I have notes that also show that these may be the same as: 1968 to 1988 Nova. 1969-1972 Oldsmobile Cutlass and F85. A GM parts supplier should be able to make sense of it. I knew a guy at NAPA that gave me some of this info. I also noted that I found that these rotor-hubs were available from from a performance supplier as a two piece hub-rotor combination. I did not keep part numbers, as I saw something (Fast Cars) in the future, although I did'nt know of Ted at the time. The two piece combo would be ideal for anyone wanting to do this mod today, as the hubs require some machining.

There are no places to read the specs about the Butler brakes. The inner and outer bearings on the Camaro have the same inner diameter dimension as the MGB stub axle/bearings. So the Camaro bearings would fit right on to the MGB. However the the distance between the inside and outside of the Camaro bearing as installed in the rotor are about roughly *3/16" wider then the MGB. (* will find out and confirm this exact dimension.) Butler's cure was to machine the rotor hub inner bearing recess deeper by the roughly *3/16". to align the plane for proper bearing/seal fit.

The rotors on mine (yours) are different. I did not machine the inner recess of the Camaro hub. I worked a couple of doors down from Berry Bearing (now known as Motion Industries) and found a bearing set that was thinner. However, I ended up having to machine the outer bearing recess roughly 1/8" deeper so that the castelled nut would be deep enough for the cotter pin to fit the hole in the axle. Thinking about this now it may have been easier to change the outer bearing to a thinner one too and eliminate the machining. I don't know why I did'nt take this approach. It may be worth looking into now, as there are so many bearing combinations available from bearing suppliers.

The caliper/bracket is not a modification I would consider doing today even though the caliper is still available for about $75.00 from NAPA. Have other MGB guys created brackets to fit multi-piston calipers to the Bee? The bracket for the caliper was modified by Butler Racing. Caliper and bracket were 1974 Dodge Dart 400.

Let me know if you need more info.

Arthur


accobraman50
Arthur Mitchell
Chicago
(43 posts)

Registered:
01/27/2008 08:14PM

Main British Car:
1965 Butler Racing AC Cobra replica 350 SBC

authors avatar
Re: MGB Roadmaster
Posted by: accobraman50
Date: February 18, 2008 12:00AM

Hi Jim,

While combing through my records on the suspension today, I took the opportunity to put together the the costs of the items that I donated to the project.

Front suspension parts & labor $ 3,110.00
MSD 8981 $220.00
MSD 8738 $ 69.00
Aldan shocks $100.00
Catch tank $19.00

Total $3,518.00

I've not included anything for the delivery service to Indi.

Please review and let me have your comments.

Regards,

Arthur



MGBV8
Carl Floyd
Kingsport, TN
(3782 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 11:32PM

Main British Car:
1979 MGB, Buick 215

authors avatar
Re: MGB Roadmaster
Posted by: MGBV8
Date: February 18, 2008 10:45AM

Arthur,

Awesome contribution!


"...the same as: 1968 to 1988 Nova"

I believe you meant 1968-1972 Nova. That is what I scrounged disk brakes from for my '68 Camaro.


More interchange info:

[www.chevy-camaro.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/21/2010 01:41PM by MGBV8.


BlownMGB-V8
Jim Blackwood
9406 Gunpowder Rd., Florence, KY 41042
(5821 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 12:59PM

Main British Car:
1971 MGB Blown,Injected,Intercooled Buick 340/AA80E/JagIRS

authors avatar
Re: MGB Roadmaster
Posted by: BlownMGB-V8
Date: February 18, 2008 11:13AM

Arthur, that sounds like it is probably accurate. We should get with Steve DeGroat (sec/treas) for any followup paperwork you need. Interesting how close that comes to the Fast Cars IFS, but then Cobra parts have never been known for being inexpensive. These parts will serve our purpose quite well. As I mentioned on the thread before, we are not building the ultimate BBB/MGB, merely pointing the way. It will likely remain for others to build the 2200 lb car.

I imagine we'll exceed the $5000 reporting minimum this year which means the IRS paperwork will have to be filed, including about a $400 fee. So we need to plan for that. The paperwork and fee won't have to be submitted until closer to the end of the year but I'd think we'll all feel more comfortable sending it in sooner. Any contributions earmarked for that purpose will be set aside until we have enough to cover it and a regular report made as we approach that goal. Currently we have $449.46 in the treasury.

At the next Roadmaster Weekend where we have visiting participants (always the last full weekend of the month unless announced otherwise) we will inventory our parts and select surplus for auction, decide on how to distribute those parts and do whatever packaging is deemed necessary. Everyone's input here is welcomed. My own thoughts lean towards offering the parts to participants and visitors to this site first at a fair market price, and then taking them to ebay. In that way some of the enthusiasts here can support the project indirectly, bearing in mind that even if they could get the item elsewhere for less, in buying it here they are supporting the Roadmaster Project.

Looking forward to a good summer.

Jim


Citron
Stephen DeGroat
Lugoff, SC
(365 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 09:43PM

Main British Car:
1970 MGBGT V6, 7004R, AC, matching trailer 3.1 liter

Re: MGB Roadmaster
Posted by: Citron
Date: February 18, 2008 02:23PM

Arthur,
Thanks for the great donation. As trs. I will have figure out how to get you a receipt for you records and what else to do.
I will seeing my tax person this month and will discuss it with her.

Steve


BlownMGB-V8
Jim Blackwood
9406 Gunpowder Rd., Florence, KY 41042
(5821 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 12:59PM

Main British Car:
1971 MGB Blown,Injected,Intercooled Buick 340/AA80E/JagIRS

authors avatar
Re: MGB Roadmaster
Posted by: BlownMGB-V8
Date: February 19, 2008 09:23AM

More good news. There will soon be a mig welder here that we can use on the Roadmaster project. Bill Young sent me information from Craigs list and I made a deal with the seller, then Bill made the exchange and will ship it to me here while at the same time I will send him a check to cover cost and expenses. This will not come out of the BADASS treasury, but I will make it available for use on the project. The unit is a Snap-on 120v with variable wire and heat, spot and stitch weld adjustments. I have a bottle of gas to use with it already and Bill has checked it out for arc and feed so we should be good to go as soon as it arrives. Looks like the sill and floor work just got a whole lot easier.

Jim

edit: Incidentally, in case anybody was wondering why I own this mig instead of BADASS, I left it up to Bill to decide since he found it, whether he wanted to keep it, donate it, or let me buy it. He chose the latter and I think that choice satisfies all parties although I know Bill is still looking for a welder for himself. The reason I say this is because it furthers the project, which was Bill's intention. It doesn't cost the treasury anything which also helps keep us on track, and it gives me personal control of the asset which I like in the event our construction site should ever change. Just wanted to be sure that made sense to everyone.
J



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/19/2008 04:28PM by BlownMGB-V8.


BlownMGB-V8
Jim Blackwood
9406 Gunpowder Rd., Florence, KY 41042
(5821 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 12:59PM

Main British Car:
1971 MGB Blown,Injected,Intercooled Buick 340/AA80E/JagIRS

authors avatar
Re: MGB Roadmaster
Posted by: BlownMGB-V8
Date: February 20, 2008 01:52PM

Bill Spohn: "People tend to underestimate the forces involved in the suspension and I can't count the number of bent Panhards and lower links I've seen. "

To add to that sentiment, from my own knowledge and experience in dealing with loads and stresses, I can't believe the number of poorly designed rear suspension links I've seen. With the amount of development work that's been done you would think that some of it would have been carried over from F1 and Indy cars to street IRS setups but somehow most builders just keep overlooking the monstrous forces applied to the rear suspension components. My theory is that they look at the slender and lightweight links used in F1 and want them, but not understanding the forces involved neglect to account for the weight difference and other factors like durability and differences in material choices, then make design changes without understanding how different loadings affect the part. LCA's are a perfect example. Any LCA on a car that uses the half shaft as the UCA is going to see some pretty large torque forces. Jaguar accounted for this with a very heavy LCA and beefy pivots. So what does the aftermarket do? Replace the rigid hardened steel bearings with plastic and make up a light weight LCA that cannot possibly handle the same torque load because they do not recognize that there even is a torque load on that part. And if they do add a UCA they don't triangulate it but attach it at two points only and expect it to compensate for a spindly LCA without accounting for the fact that a two point attachment cannot control torque in the least. Sorry for the rant. I've been trying to understand it and it just doesn't make sense to me.

On a lighter note, we have the new front suspension unloaded and sitting on the front of the car.
MVC-431S.JPG
Obviously things are getting a little cluttered but we'll get that all sorted out soon enough. There are so many things in the photo that you almost can't see the suspension but I'll get to those other items shortly. It's a pretty decent suspension, just heavy, difficult to make adjustments to, and not possessed of modern geometry but quite capable of doing the job we ask of it. Much of the weight is in the brakes, and as Arthur noted, the '74 Dart 400 calipers are a heavy choice (and becoming hard to find). But, consider this. In 1980 I went from wire wheels and stock brakes to Mustang brakes (roughly equivalent to what we have for the Roadmaster), 265/50-14 tires and 11 lb wheels and the overall weight of the package was virtually unchanged. Those wire wheels are HEAVY! So our wheel choice can definitely offset the extra weight of the big brakes, and with a little extra sprung weight the ride should be about the same.
MVC-430S.JPG
Here is our current choice of springs. The pair in the center are the old ones out of my roadster, Huffaker -1 with a little sag. The yellow springs are Cobra. I haven't checked wire size but they look very similar to the first ones, and could very well be identical (when new). The next set is stock GT and the outside set is probably TR-6 front springs. At least we have choices.
MVC-432S.JPG
Here we see our ignition system shaping up nicely. In addition to the MSD-6 donated by Mike Domanowski we now have a soft touch rev limiter module and an electronic timing control module, all msd so it should all be compatible.
MVC-434S.JPG
Here is the thermostatic fan switch, Jaz catch tank and there are various other parts lying about as well.
So have fun looking at the photos and trying to see what you can identify. Something to do whilst being snowed in.

Jim
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