MG Sports Cars

121 is a standard 2-pin Weatherproof connector. If that's it, let me know - I'll be ordering some in the next few days and will add it into my order. 120 is probably a standard Metri-Pack (not sure how they spell that). If that's it & someone can I'd it for sure, I can order that too - most suppliers stock all the variations.

It's the #120 with the two side clips.
I don't know yet whether the car will push or wag its tail but I plan to find out soon and will pass it along just as soon as I know.

Carl, do you know how to turn on the radio?

JB

Don't remember off the top of my head. What is the brand/model #. Or post a pic. Bet my son can turn it on. ;)

JIm:

Pretty sure the radio instructions DID go with the car! (Check the rear tire area). New radios are either hit the main knob OR (if not an individual "power" button) hit the "Source" button.

If none of that wakes it up, then maybe we have lost connection somehow. I don't think Steve had to mess with the center console, but we know he was playing with gauges. Thus, why I thought maybe a drop at the ignition switch....

You can sell that 1" front sway bar-- it isn't going to mount on that car, anyway. (Frame rails modified). You'll have to custom make a front bar, if it comes to it.

We made our own rear sway bar for the race car, using a cut (and rewelded--tube) 9/16" front bar. Mounted it below the battery boxes, which we welded up with plates. (The plates provided different mounting locations for some "adjustability".) Not sure the Roadmaster would provide a similar possibility, but I would think going lower would be easier than higher, what with the Jag rear.

Can you play around with rear spring rates first?

M

Sorry: "spare tire area". :p

M

We build a great frickin' car.....

.....and cannot figure out how to turn on the radio....

....without the assistance of the younger generation....

.....which is why we built the car in the first place....

....to get the younger generation involved....

....I say....

MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!

Went for a drive this morning to test the ride and handling characteristics and I'm sorry to say that I didn't make much headway on evaluating the handling. The roads I chose just weren't challenging enough to test the limits without going WAY too fast, and I found myself in 4th gear most of the time. In reality this is a credit to the sticky tires because the road was twisty enough that I thought it would give the car a decent test, but I just couldn't get it to push. The closest I came was on a sharp left hand off camber cresting a hill and even then all I did was begin breaking traction on the inside rear tire. Which doesn't mean anything anyway because I was into the loud pedal pretty good at that point too (in 4th btw). So much for that, I'll need to find another road.

There is some body roll but it isn't bad. I'd say we could get by with no sway bar at all, but if we do decide to fit bars my impression so far is that we'll be likely to want them at both ends. But there's no hurry since we aren't racing it. I didn't hear any sounds of body contact but it feels like if it's a hard enough and long enough corner to cause maximum body roll we could get some contact.

Speaking of gears, 1st is good for parking lots, steep uphill starts and jumping across traffic. 2nd is fine for starting out. So is 3rd. 4th is no challenge. 5th is doable. It'll complain a little but not enough to strain the clutch or engine. But a higher gear isn't needed I don't think, as 5th is really only good for 40 and up as it slows the engine down too much.

It has a little transient trailing throttle oversteer but it quickly goes away. Not sure what the cause of that is, it seemed a little unsettling but not particularly dangerous. Might be the looseness in the rack. Otherwise it was capable and predictable, though certainly different from your average run of the mill MGB.

The ride was something I did manage to test pretty thoroughly, and I can say that roads with rough, uneven and just basically bad pavement don't slow it down. Both front and rear suspensions took on everything I could throw at them at whatever speed I wished to do it. I think I did manage to hit a bump stop once or twice but it was just a momentary increase in stiffness rather than an abrupt jolt. Directional control remained stable and though I can't say for certain that it wasn't present, I did not notice any bump steer. We will need to have the driveshaft balanced.

It's been awhile since I spent any time behind the wheel of a very high powered MGB and there are some necessary adjustment that take a little while to make. Your driving style has to be matched to the car and to the level of power available. Ultimately you end up using all of that power infrequently and only for short periods of time because that is what makes sense, and anything else is just showing off. And you can't very well be doing that all the time now, can you? What we've built here is a very very fast cruiser that will handle any sort of roads extremely well. If your goal is to make good time over a long drive this is the car to do it in. The power is effortless, the handling very good, and the ride superb for a car of this size, and better than some large luxury cars.

Not bad. In fact, very good.

JB



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/04/2011 03:05PM by BlownMGB-V8.

Sounds like our mission was accomplished, to build a true Grand Touring car with plenty of power and torque to make highway driving quite and smooth yet be able to handle the twisty bits without any drama. A job well done! Considering what the general idea of that much engine in a B would do to the handling before we started I think we've proved that point as well. Careful selection of the light weight block and the aluminum heads and other accessories has kept the weight well withing limits and kept then handling sharp without too much steering effort. I'm looking forward to getting a turn behind the wheel on the Power Tour or such to see just how it feels on the road.

Jim,

You posted the weight of that engine once, I believe - do you still have that data?

Rick, I think you are right... so Carl, are you bringing him with you next time up?

Bill I think you are absolutely right and this car fits the definition of a true GT in every sense of the word and should be a worthy addition to the Power Tour. There are a few items that need our attention first but we'll get to those I'm sure.

Dan, this is from Page 3 of this thread, near the bottom. Hope it answers your question:

"Here are some engine component weights, as measured on a digital shipping scale:

Complete short block minus flywheel, starter and engine mounts: 300#
Bare block: 177#
Crank: 66.1
1 rod and piston: 4.0
cam: 8.8
Cover and pump: 8.2
Damper: 6.8
distributor: 2.0
timing chain and gears: 1.8
iron intake: 48.9
bare head with rockers: 57.1
flex plate: 4.2
pan: 7.0

I realize that adding up the weights results in an error of 2 or 3 pounds (we were at the limits of the scale) and we'll take a closer look when we have clean parts to weigh during reassembly, but it gives us a better look at the weight we're dealing with here. We came up with 465 lbs for the complete engine minus starter and flywheel, where we had 500lbs for the 430 similarly equipped. This would seem to indicate that there may indeed some basis for the claim that the '70 455 is 50 lbs lighter than later engines. At any rate anyone would have to admit that this is very light for a big block motor. Add flywheel and starter and we're still real close to 500 pounds. On their website TA performance states that their aluminum heads are lighter by 30 lbs each. They also state that their intake is 30 lbs lighter. That would get us down to to around 410 lbs depending on starter and flywheel used. If we can manage to put one of Ted's suspensions under it, we'll be down to an effective weight of 330, which is as light as stock!"

There was other discussion which pointed out that with the weight added by the IRS the weight balance of the car was unchanged. The car has picked up a couple hundred pounds overall and hopefully we can weigh it in May. I suspect it will be very close to 2500 lbs which was our target. Obviously the extra weight is not a problem but for an MGB it's true that it is "extra chunky".

JB

If you would like a comparison, my brother is 2600lbs with his Cobra, 605 cubic inch with over 700hp at the rear wheels.

If you have to much roll take some weight of the front.

T-shirt ??? that is ok. I was just trying to help out.

Interesting comparison Gary. For a bunch of reasons I'm not sure how valid that is, but what the heck, let's go with it. Naturally your brother has more money in the car so let's consider what we could have done with a bigger budget. First, a TA Performance alloy block drops 67 lbs off the front end, which Bill G should also like. And since the size limitation on that block is something like 700 cubic inches we could easily achieve parity in terms of displacement and horsepower with an accompanying decrease in weight. Of course there are no pretensions that this is a race car so there wouldn't be much point in doing that, but we could have. You didn't say and I don't recall if your brother's car is FF or something else so does it have side windows? We could replace those with armored Lexan, weighing about 2-3 lbs each. The window cranks wouldn't be needed with such light windows either, so we're talking about 5 windows plus wing glasses, probably a hundred pounds or more right there. Quite a few MGBs are down in the 2200 lb range and with the alloy block the engine is within about 30 lbs of stock so a 2300 lb car should be easily done. If we went with the Fast Cars front end (minus 80 lbs) and a set of tubular half shafts and alloy lower control arms (minus probably close to another 80 lbs) that's another hundred fifty pounds or so removed and now we're at a very light 2150 lbs or near thereabouts with basically unlimited horsepower potential. I'm not sure at what point you say enough is enough but for most people we are already well past that point with our current build and this whole exercise is just extremely excessive, but the point is, for a reasonable amount of money, had it been available, we could have done these things if we'd wanted to.

Now you, being an MG guy are in the perfect position to go tell your brother that, hey, the Cobra isn't really so special... if that's what you'd like to do. And if so I'm happy we could give you the ammunition. But the Cobra is a truly iconic car and nobody can ever take that away. The MGB? As we've shown, seriously under rated and under developed, but a car with incredible potential nonetheless. All that being said, most of us drive MG's instead of Cobras because we like MG's more than Cobras. There are about as many reasons for that as there are owners.

JB

The Cobra is a Superformance long before they became Shelby licensed cars.

[www.superformance.com]

Years ago Shelby left the country to evade debtors. When he left he told the people building kit cars good luck with the Cobra's because he never made any money. Later back int he states, Shelby went on a campaign to sue all the Cobra manufacturers. Superformance was one of the few Cobra builders with real financial backing to actually fight him off.

Superformance spent a great deal of time and money in the design of these cars. When they wanted to build a Daytona Coupe, they went to the original builder Peter Brock. Peter Brock said I don't do kit cars. The people at Superformance said you don't understand. They flew Brock to the plant in South Africa and discussed how they build a car.

You see, when Brock built the Daytona Coupe, he was not finished refining the car when Shelby said, we need to race it; build what you got.

Superformance said the car will not be built unless you do it. They gave Peter Brock the key to the design studio and said stay don't come out till you are done.

It became the Brock Coupe and was not a replica of the Daytona Coupe but the finished Daytona Coupe Peter Brock designed. Later Shelby wormed his way in and now it's a Shelby car. The car is an amazing car in all aspects.

Superformance took orders and hooked up with people who would put engines in cars and for the most part people bought a complete car. For a while it was the brother of the shop where my brother got his car who put engines in the Superformance cars...until the DOT came in and said, well that's a bit much like selling a complete car.

Now that match cars up with other groups to put engines in them...but my brother was one of the first to put the engine in himself and he bugged them everyday about details int he instructions which obviously had never been used. Point being he don't have as much in that car as you might think. He does his own engine work so there is nothing exotic there either.

As far as performance, I would wager you a lot of money if you had 100 more hp you would not be able to take this car in a road coarse; it's bad ass and it is sorted out and well balanced. As far as 1/4 mile he has ran it a couple times and it's in the 10's. Problem is running 10's requires a full cage and once he runs he really can't do it again.

Last time he was at a track he was running with a lotus group. The Elise were speed bumps as were the Lotus turbo Esprit. There were several Cobras at the track and the only 2 he could not take were raced prepped small block full race cars. One blew the engine and the other blew it's engine latter that summer.

The car has not been babied. He has almost 70k miles on it. They have spun it off a track a dozen times and flogged it routinely.

If you build an MG like that.....I have seen what this car is....Sorry, but my money is still on this car 10 fold.

Thank you very much for that history Gary, it was quite entertaining as well as informative. I can see that your brother is heavily involved in the Cobra scene, and many of us here have always felt a close affinity and respect for Cobra cars, their owners, and the organizations. In fact you or your brother may know Arthur Mitchell, one of our early contributors and an Arntz-Butler owner who donated his NOS unused front suspension when he switched to Ted's "Fast Cars" front end. As I'm sure you know, Arntz-Butler used MGB front ends.

I have no intention of bench racing with you Gary. The car we built is not a race car and was never intended to be one. It's purpose is to be a marketing tool to bring youngsters into our sport, and while racing can be an effective way to do that, our budget is no where near enough to allow for it. Gary, you say your brother doesn't have that much in his Cobra but that is compared to other Cobras. When I say that we don't have much in the Roadmaster that is in comparison to other MGs. The difference in the scale is massive and it's a little disingenuous to suggest that your brother's investment in his Cobra is similar to what we've spent on this car. Given those considerations and the size of the handicap who would not expect the Cobra to win on the race track? If it did not there would be something seriously wrong with it. That's not saying the GT would not be competitive, only that a comparable amount of money would probably have to be spent to make it so, and that there is indeed an upgrade path which would allow that. But we aren't going down that path so it's pointless to argue it. If someone wants to build one to compete with the Cobras I'd be more than happy to offer my services though with full expectation of success.

Having said that, I have to ask. Did you post in this thread in an attempt to set up a grudge race or something? I mean, your posts have sort of inferred that whereas the Cobra is your brother's car the MGB is yours. I realize now that you never said that and it occurs to me that you may be a Cobra owner wannabe living on your brother's glory. There's nothing wrong with that if that's what you're doing and you are welcome here, but if you want to jab people who have put in solid work to build good cars you really need to show us what you have done too. This isn't the thread for it though. If you're going to do that start a new thread, and you can link to it here with no complaints. This thread is a very special one, the only dedicated "Sticky" build thread in the entire forum, for the specific purpose of covering the build and development of a car intended to benefit the participants in the sport as a whole. It has been here as long as the web site itself and really should be respected as such. It isn't really here to discuss other cars except as they might relate to the B.A.D.A.S.S. MGB-Roadmaster Project. Please pardon me if I've stepped on your toes. That was not my intent. But as President of BADASS I do have a responsibility to keep things on track, and right now that means getting the car ready for the annual British V8 Meet in Palestine, TX this May. You are cordially invited to come to the meet, see the cars, and mingle with the owners, many of whom you've encountered here.

JB

Grudge? Hell no Jim, my brother's Cobra is just a benchmark I am familiar with. I think we all launch form benchmarks we are familiar with. I see what he has done a little more then bench racing because he's actually done it. Like he always said, it doesn't matter what you brung, some one brung one faster. My MG doesn't hold a candle to it nor ever could. The things he's done with that car would rip mine in half which does beg one question.

How do you think the MG GT's would hold up to 700 rwhp, 900 engine hp? I know years ago I know a Chevell with less hp twisted and popped out a back window?

ps.....it's about the journey!

Wake up, Jim. I think yer asleep. Cobra owner wannabe? I'd rather have Gary's Pantera! ;)

Thank you Gary, I'm glad we didn't end up in a misunderstanding.

To date we are pushing the envelope of what the MGB monocoque will stand, far beyond what has ever been done before with an un-reinforced shell. At this point with an unverified and estimated (based on credible engine builders' projections) 500/500 power level we are seeing no signs of any stresses whatsoever in the body, windows, or any other indications. How far beyond this we can go is anybody's guess, but the MGB body shell is remarkably stiff. The primary causes other than the fairly straightforward construction has a lot to do with the thickness of the panels (the car is heavy and overbuilt for it's size) and the small size itself which lends stiffness. For the purpose of comparison, I put a convertible MGB on the lift and applied a force of around 11,000 lbs to the center of the door sill in an attempt to deform it. With that much force I got only 1/4" of deflection in the door opening and this was with the rocker panel cut away. It sprang back when the force was removed. For contrast consider a typical TR7 in good condition which will flex enough just from being lifted that the doors are hard to open or close. I can't give you a measurement of flex but the force applied is way less. We have long recognized this characteristic in the MGB and it was undoubtedly a major factor in its successful racing history but nobody seems to know the reason behind it other than it being the first unibody design to come out of Abingdon.

So would I be afraid to go to 700 hp? No, not really provided the shell was sound. Some extra seam welding might be advisable but until we start to see deformation we don't even really know which seams would benefit from that and which ones wouldn't care in the least. It was because of these unknowns that we chose to go with the GT bodyshell since the roof adds a great deal of strength, but I'm currently building a convertible which will be at a similar power level: [forum.britishv8.org] and which should be a suitable test bed for the rag top. We'll see where that goes but I expect it to do just fine.

JB

Carl: Gary's Pantera? and here I though you were a Chevy guy. ;-)

Did I say anything about retaining the 351C? Noooo, I was thinking LS7............. :D

Well Jim what your doing power wise to a shell intended for a 90hp engine is amazing. I would say the MG shell both the convertible and the coupe in the 1960's was the most amazing thing they did to the cars. It was if they were 15 years ahead of their time on the shell and still in the stone age n the rest. Since they made so many MG's it makes it a great car to screw around with. It will be interesting to see the failure points on the car as you thrash it.


Carl it's a Ford 400 stroked 434. The 400 is basically a stroked Cleveland although they were packaged in truck configurations. The other Pantera has and will retain the 351C.