MG Sports Cars

Here's another good place to see Huffaker flares: [www.britishv8.org]

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Curtis, this car NEEDS to be in the the Photo Gallery.

I totally agree. I've asked Bill for the photos and write-up. They've been promised, but they haven't arrived yet.

If installing fiberglass flares means cutting away steel in the quarterpanels, then I'd recommend thinking twice about them in conjunction with the big block engine. Chassis strength and torsional rigidity are important. You want to get all that big block torque to the ground!

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Graham Creswick is running Panasport 15x7 with 22mm offset & 225/50ZR-15 Dunlop SP Sport 8000 tires with a Ford 8.8 narrowed to stock MGB width & no flares. So, they will fit.

Yeah, but Graham makes things look easier than they really are. I know Graham put his front antisway bar in a press and put a curve in it (to narrow it) so it wouldn't contact the tires. Maybe Graham will step into this conversation and let us know what trickery is going on here. Have the rear wheel arch lips been removed entirely? It seems he's not even using Panhard bar!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/23/2008 01:35PM by Moderator.

"Yeah, but Graham makes things look easier than they really are. I know Graham put his front antisway bar in a press and put a curve in it (to narrow it) so it wouldn't contact the tires."

We can work around that. Ted Lathrop mentioned building a front bar for the Roadmaster. :)

"If installing fiberglass flares means cutting away steel in the quarterpanels, then I'd recommend thinking twice about them in conjunction with the big block engine."

There ought to be a way to weld the inner & outer fender back together so as not to cause any weakness. It may be very labor intensive to rework the inner fenderwell. Though it seems that would be necessary even with steel flares.

Do you guys honestly like the Huffaker flares? I can't say I do, and that's the reason mine are the way they are. Joe showed them to me when I was out there in 1980 and I did buy a set of the front ones thinking I might be able to rework them for the rear but it just didn't work out and I sold them and made up some formed steel ones instead. If we're going that far with it I think I'd rather create another set of steel ones. But then we're back to the tire problem I've got, no 24" diameter tires with 12" of tread. How much bigger in diameter we might go could be limited by header clearance on the front. I can try to look at that, just not today.

I can't say exactly why I don't care for those flares. Sort of a visual thing because of that small vertical section. For some reason it reminds me of those early dually pickup trucks with the stuck on fenders and I never did like the looks of those. Some people do, just not me. Those give you 3". That's a lot. If you put that wide of a tire on the front the steering force is going to increase noticeably, particularly for parallel parking and with more weight on the front it'll be worse. If we put smaller tires on the front then we'll be fighting understeer and we can do that too of course if we have to. But since no amount of rubber is going to prevent wheelspin, do we really want to go overboard in getting maximum rear traction anyway?

I'm not sure we need to decide this right now. As long as we maximize the usable space to the inside I can determine the half shaft length based on whatever optimum axle width you guys give me. But I agree with Carl on the shims. I do not want to have to space the wheel back out because we made a mistake.

Jim

QUOTE: "Maybe Graham will step into this conversation and let us know what trickery is going on here"
Without getting into a lengthy Blackwoodian response, let's say that I DO have rear tire scrubbing.
When the 8.8 was narrowed to 51", one thing I did was to weld the spring brackets 3/16" off centre to the left which in effect situated the axle biased to the right 3/16" - in effect trying to compensate for the well-documented MGB axle phenomena of the axle mounting biased to the left. This did help centre the wheel/tire in the wheelwell but found that I could have gone an additional 1/16" for a better fit - 3/16" still left me with an external tire rub on the left and an internal tire scrub on the right. This internal tire rub was eliminated by messaging the bump stop metal with a hammer. Both wheel well lips have been essentially ground off to the spot welds.
If, as Carl mentions, both bump stops are eliminated entirely and the axle width shortened even further (to perhaps 50-1/4"), I believe that 15" rims w/22mm offset & 225/50 tires can be made to work. I see no reason why an adjustable axle mockup (w/square tubing/ & flanges/studs) couldn't be fabricated and installed with the correct rims/tire combination to arrive at an optimized axle width.
As far as the front sway bar, there's no smoke and mirrors there! Bending a sway bar after it has been heat treated must be done slowly and deliberately or else you are left with a 2 piece arrangement. True, my tires don't contact the bar, but the exhaust headers are a different story - we'll fix that next Winter!

Thanks, Graham. That's a big help knowing the inside scoop..

"I can't say exactly why I don't care for those flares. Sort of a visual thing because of that small vertical section."

Well, what about the Sebring flares? They look better on a GT than a roadster.



Otherwise, with no flares I'm for 225/50-15 rear & 205/55-15 front on 7" wheels or König – Helium 15X6.5 at only 11.6 lbs!

On second thought, the Huffaker flares don't look so bad. He had two versions, 2" and 3" IIRC. I'd guess these are the 2" flares on Pete Smith's car and they're not bad at all. I believe the 3" ones looked a lot more like the Sebring flares. So what do the Omni flares give you an inch or so? Personally I'd just as soon work with steel. I guess it really comes down to what is donated though. Which is a good reason to plan the axle width without the flares I would think.

Jim

Yeah, the rear Sebrings are pretty bulky.

I like the stock look, BUT i keep daydreaming about what a 5" wider track might do for the handling.

Those omni flares are fairly subtle and will probably get you the extra 5" (outside to outside). You guys remember Joe in a previous thread stating that he had 63" at rear and 61" at front, that's getting close (well the rear is) to a miata.

The omni flares are 3" wide each but when installed on the MG you get about 2 1/4" to 2 1/2" per side due to the angle of the body -- e.g. the flare mounts to the MG higher up on the body curve so you're not starting at the widest part of the body shell. You can probably get a bit more or less depending exactly where you mount them, but not much.

As for the inner fender... i haven't done mine, but i've done a lot of looking at them. Looks to me like it won't be too tough to split them down the middle lengthwise (there's a seam down the middle already) & drill out the spot rivets in the outer half... then re-install with a piece of sheet metal with a simple curve to fill the gap. no compound curves to deal with. I hope to be doing mine within the next month; will let you know how it goes.

I do think if you have the rear axle out, it's not a bad idea to go ahead & remove the bump stop bulges... why not? It's easy to do when the stuff is off the car & the extra space will likely come in handy.

I measured a couple of spare axles. On the disc wheel axle I got 51-1/2", that should be within 1/8" on the measurement. The width of the wire wheel axle, a surprise, was 49-3/4", making it 2-1/4" narrower. The wire wheel axle came off our Roadmaster GT, so it'd be a '69 and the disc wheel axle should be about the same vintage.

I also measured the bump. The most that we could expect to gain there is 3/4" per side. If not for the shock bolts this would be a full 1". So given these measurements, can you guys recommend a width for the axle, assuming we cut the bumps and keep the shock bolts? Thx

Jim

Oh, and the inner fenders aren't bad at all. You do them exactly as Rob suggests. I'm in favor of the Omni flares if someone can get us a set.
J

Jim, I know how much you want to get something done on the project, but when you're dealing with such small clearance issues every 1/4" is important. Best to wait until you have the tires and wheels and then work from there. Changing the width of an axle assembly is just too much work to have to do twice and adding spacers will work but not necessarily the best solution.
As far as forming a sway bar, what Graham did works fine for small adjustments, but it's easy to just heat the bar up, bend it to the shape desired and then retemper in a good spring furnace. I made the rear bar for my Midget from a small rear bar from some type of Japanese import I don't remember. I chose it because of the diameter, not the shape. I had to change almost every bend in the bar to work, just heated with my torch and bent away in my vise. When I had a shape I liked I took it to the local spring shop and for $20 they ran it through the furnace. Worked great.

No promises, but let me look at the spares I have. I may be able to help with the omni flares Jim.

Rob

Thanks Rob, that would help a lot. Very, very much in fact.

Bill, I completely understand what you're telling me, but I really need to get going on those lower control arms as soon as possible. I don't want to be trying to get it done 2 weeks before the meet. If we take things in the proper order then we'd do the flares, acquire wheels and tires, fit everything up and then do the axle but any delay puts the show at risk. Yes, I'm getting a little anxious because of the inactivity over the winter. More than anything I'm worried about the wheels and tires. If I can get the axle done then any old junkyard wheels can get us to the show, and maybe there we will pick up a sponsor for the wheels and tires. But unless we have an undercarriage we do not have a car for the show. On the other hand, nice wheels will attract a lot more attention to the project. But before we can buy wheels we have to know what our choice is for tires. Before we know that we have to decide about the flares.

Sorry guys, I seem to have a little cabin fever this morning. It's been building. Once we get past the middle of March I'll be fine, please just bear with me until then.

Jim

Okay, Jim, take a deeeep breath & calm down.

Maybe making this year's show is a tall order that is gonna stress you too much. You have work to do on your own car, as well. Are you talking, on 4 wheels trailering it to the V8 Meet to show the progress? Or, actually having it in driving condition?

Have read this thread:

[forum.britishv8.org]

It may reinforce with what has been discussed about rearend width. Unless, we do flares, the add 2". I'll call the local junkyards about Omni/Horizons.

The 22mm offset might be difficult in the Chevy bolt pattern, though

Tires? 225/50-15s minimum in the rear. Same or 205/55-15s in the front. A used or worn out set might be helpful for steup

I'll be OK Carl, just give me a week or so for the snow to clear.

That would be the width Ted uses. 51" hub to hub, 51-1/2" with rotors. Same as a stock axle, drum to drum. Can I subtract 1-1/2" from that? (3/4" per side by flattening bump stop humps?) Gives 50" exactly.

Is this correct for the 22mm offset?

What is the most common offset for GM wheels?

I'm more familiar with backspacing. I run 3-1/2" backspacing on my car and I see that on ebay fairly often. I find it easier to work with because clearance to the inside does not change regardless of wheel width. Anyone know what the offset on an 8" wheel with 3-1/2" backspacing would be?

We're getting closer. Answers to those questions should be about all we need right now.

I'll have more info for the Roadmaster thread soon. The goal is to trailer a roller to the meet. Anything above that is great, but it needs to be on it's own wheels and capable of being unloaded from the trailer.

Jim

Jim,

I always worked with backspacing in the past. My Camaro has 15X10s with 6" of back spacing. That is how I get the wider Chevelle rearend to work. Apparently, offset is the standard, now.

Offset is just the difference between the wheel's mounting surface & half of the wheel's width. So, your wheel has a 1/2" or 12.7mm of negative offset. Negative offset gives the "deep dish" look. Positive offset moves the wheel more inward.

"Can I subtract 1-1/2" from that? (3/4" per side by flattening bump stop humps?) Gives 50" exactly. Is this correct for the 22mm offset?"

No. The 22mm offset is for a stock width MG rearend. Don't cut anything, yet. We need to look at the available offsets. I was thinking we would want a stock width rearend or possibly a bit wider if using flares. Still depends on the wheels & flares or not.

Are there any GM factory wheels that you like. I always liked the Firebird Trans-Am wheels that look similar to mine. They come in 14, 15, & 16' with different backspacing for front & rear.

Check these out (good backspacing info):

[www.tacreationsusa.com]

Jim, if you have access to an old trailer axle why not just cut it to fit and mount on the original leaf springs to make a roller for the show. Having the IRS would be nice, but not necessary for people to get the overall idea for the car. That way you can concentrate on the tires and some wheels that will get it rolling without having to have the final pieces in hand.

I'll wait to cut the shafts. I also will make some calls to see if we can get tires donated. If we use Omni flares what's the biggest tire we can use? Can we put the same tire on the front?

My preference on the wheels is first to spend as little on them as possible (possibly ebay), second to get the lightest and strongest wheels possible (Weld and Centerline come to mind) and then go for looks.
[cgi.ebay.ca]

These are the wrong pattern but is an example of what I would look for. Carl, I understand your wheels are also very light, don't know what others are.

Jim

Well, being that these are factory wheels, I doubt they are real light. Certainly not anywhere near Weld wheels.



I wouldn't think that you want to go any bigger than 225/50-15 on the front. Then again, l see what you are running. :)

Joe Schafer has 245/50-15s out back. Not sure they are really under the flare, though. In any case, I think that is about big enough. Bigger tires are heavier & usually more costly.

I haven't weighed just my wheels (wish I had), but the current combo is 31 lbs. (on a digital scale that rounds to the nearest tenth) with considerable tread missing from the barely legal tires. That is pretty close to the low end of the scale. Toyo says that my tires weigh 21lbs. at full tread.

You can go for lightweight wheels & then wind up with a lot of heavy rubber mounted to them.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/28/2008 12:08PM by MGBV8.