MG Sports Cars

engine swaps and other performance upgrades, plus "factory" and Costello V8s

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Anonymous User


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12/31/1969 07:00PM

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Re: 340 upgrade
Posted by: Anonymous User
Date: November 30, 2007 11:41AM

If the stock fuel tank is replaced, options are opened for more elaborate IRS mounts.


BlownMGB-V8
Jim Blackwood
9406 Gunpowder Rd., Florence, KY 41042
(5834 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 12:59PM

Main British Car:
1971 MGB Blown,Injected,Intercooled Buick 340/AA80E/JagIRS

authors avatar
Re: 340 upgrade
Posted by: BlownMGB-V8
Date: December 08, 2007 12:06PM

Will, I'm not going to do that. Between moving the tank and doing the IRS, if it requires tank modification of any kind the tube axle stays. Same with the battery boxes. This is either going to bolt in to the stock existing attachment points without any changes to the body or it isn't going to happen at all. That is, with the possible exception of a forward mount near the pinion, but even there what I'm looking for is a modification of only one hole being drilled in the pan that bridges the bottom of the tranny tunnel or something along that line. I want it to be possible to unbolt and drop out the existing rear suspension, jack the new IRS into place, and bolt it up. No cutting, no welding, no hammering. Maybe drill one hole. That's it. If it takes more than that, forget it. Now the Jag setup on the Roadmaster is something altogether different, but that's a different project.

Calvin suggested the R200 and after looking at his thread over on the TR forum I'm seeing some very interesting things there. For instance, the Richard Good flange adapters, which may allow a CV type half shaft to be used with a Jag center section. Well, at least it adds options. Calvin, I have a question I'm hoping you might answer for me. I know you feel the R200 diff is strong enough. (Could you tell me the ring diameter?) My question is, if you measure across the width of the housing right at the front mounting lugs what is that measurement? I want to know if it might possibly fit between the battery boxes. If it will then the next issue would be supporting the rear of the housing. If those two issues can be resolved then the R200 might be a good candidate. I would also like to know where you got your half-shafts. edit: Found it. Richard Good's website.

The Jag diff is one we know will fit in the available space, although control arms might be an issue. The 2003-2004 4.6L Expedition unit is not showing up on ebay with any regularity for whatever reason. I've not seen one yet but I'm still watching for one.

As for other aspects of the project, Jack Morris donated a set of '64 300 heads to the Roadmaster project and they were on the trailer when Steve and Eric came up last weekend, along with some assorted parts. Some we might be able to sell to raise money, and some we won't, but I am considering buying the heads for the 340. The combustion chambers looked good, as did the ports and water jackets, but the spark plug hole on one head was wallowed out very badly and looked like it had been tapped one sized larger and then wallowed out again. Does anybody know if that can be welded up and repaired for anything approaching the cost of another head? (Does anybody have a good 300 head they want to get rid of?)

Jim



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/10/2007 08:29AM by BlownMGB-V8.


rficalora
Rob Ficalora
Willis, TX
(2637 posts)

Registered:
10/24/2007 02:46PM

Main British Car:
'76 MGB w/CB front, Sebring rear, early metal dash Ford 302

authors avatar
Re: 340 upgrade
Posted by: rficalora
Date: December 10, 2007 05:55PM

Hi Jim, I took some pics of my R200S (short nose version) yesterday, but forgot to download them to my PC... I can send you pics & measurements later this evening or tomorrow if you still want them.


BlownMGB-V8
Jim Blackwood
9406 Gunpowder Rd., Florence, KY 41042
(5834 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 12:59PM

Main British Car:
1971 MGB Blown,Injected,Intercooled Buick 340/AA80E/JagIRS

authors avatar
Re: 340 upgrade
Posted by: BlownMGB-V8
Date: December 10, 2007 08:30PM

Sure Rob. I might as well check it out. And no matter what I do the half shafts will be a challenge.

Jim


BlownMGB-V8
Jim Blackwood
9406 Gunpowder Rd., Florence, KY 41042
(5834 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 12:59PM

Main British Car:
1971 MGB Blown,Injected,Intercooled Buick 340/AA80E/JagIRS

authors avatar
Re: 340 upgrade
Posted by: BlownMGB-V8
Date: December 12, 2007 05:33PM

Getting back to the engine, I've talked to Dale Spooner about the heads. Apparently he did some work on 300 heads in cooperation with a rather skilled porting guy up in Vermont. They'll be talking it over during Christmas break but he indicated that in order to benefit from oversized valves some pretty extensive porting work would be needed, and for a moderate lift cam the biggest gains were had with a 30* valve angle in the intake.

In reality it's all a pretty new area though since I will be putting the heads on a 340 short block instead of a 300 and then running a blower. Maybe the small ports and valves will give me good gas mileage. Maybe the boost will be enough to offset the small valves/ports. Maybe leaving it near stock and using the 30* angle is the best approach. Maybe swapping in the better valve springs from my old Buick 215 heads is a good idea. Maybe, maybe, maybe. The one thing I know for sure is that Dale won't pick up the heads until late January so I might as well work on something else. Still, at least he did say that getting the spark plug hole fixed wouldn't be a problem.

In the meantime I have a shortblock to tear down and reassemble, a transmission to build, and an IRS to construct. At least I'm not running out of things to do. Now if only my parts guy would find that elusive NOS 1973 Mustang hub and rotor.

Jim


BlownMGB-V8
Jim Blackwood
9406 Gunpowder Rd., Florence, KY 41042
(5834 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 12:59PM

Main British Car:
1971 MGB Blown,Injected,Intercooled Buick 340/AA80E/JagIRS

authors avatar
Re: 340 upgrade
Posted by: BlownMGB-V8
Date: January 01, 2008 01:29PM

I've been working on the brakes. This all started because I found one usable 256/50-14 tire on ebay and in the process of fitting it to the car I noticed... well you know how it goes. I decided to try fixing one nagging problem I've had since 1980 which is hub-centric wheels on lug-centric hubs. Probably the ultimate solution is a new set of wheels and tires but being the cheap Scott that I am I decided that adapter rings should work, made up a set for the back and while pulling the front hubs discovered scored rotors. No problem, ordered a set. They are only available as a hub/rotor assembly though. More money but I get them anyway. Take the first one out, break it down, and start planning how I'll incorporate an adapter ring. I've pretty well decided to use the ford hub (1973 Mustang), put the rotor to the outside and space the caliper bracket to match and even machined down the flange to go inside the rotor when I open the second box.

It's a one piece assembly. Not only that but it turns out it's the only way anyone makes them any more. Which is fine if you own a Mustang, but not so great for me. Suddenly my brake rotors are obsolete, and worse than that they've fallen into the gap between obsolete and restoration. The first box I opened was the last two piece assembly on the planet earth. I did manage to reclaim one old rotor before it went to the scrappers and it only has one score mark in it so it's usable in a pinch, but what a revoltin' development! No new hub for that side so that plan is out the window. I might be able to fit rings to the existing hubs but it'll take a good bit of work and since my tires are also obsolete and in the gap what's the point? Will the other three thin tires last the 5 or 6 years it may take Coker to pick them up? Not if I drive the car the way I want to. Those Centerline Drag-Lite wheels were never made to last for decades either and are showing their age, wouldn't be a real big surprise to start seeing cracks in them, what with the sealing and pitting problems I'm seeing now on the inside. I guess the thing to do is just to slap it back together as-is and start shopping for wheels and tires, and look for a new plan on the brakes. Best laid plans and all that, who would have thought... I really can't afford Wilwood and they might go obsolete just as fast for all I know. I guess that's the price we pay for progress. So now I have 5 lug hubs that are spaced about an inch out from the 4 lug flanges, an obsolete rotor nobody makes anymore, pads that are hard to find, but at least the caliper brackets use the stock attachments. Well, at least modern technology should provide me with lighter calipers if nothing else, and possibly lighter rotors too. Wonder what Mitsubishi is using these days?

Jim


BlownMGB-V8
Jim Blackwood
9406 Gunpowder Rd., Florence, KY 41042
(5834 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 12:59PM

Main British Car:
1971 MGB Blown,Injected,Intercooled Buick 340/AA80E/JagIRS

authors avatar
Re: 340 upgrade
Posted by: BlownMGB-V8
Date: January 10, 2008 02:16PM

The rotors from Tire rack ended up being the one piece ones and had to be sent back so the old rotor with one score mark in the back will go back on the car. I've found a solution for the pcv plumbing on the 215 blower motor and if I'm willing to pull the heads again should be able to cure the one remaining flaw with that engine, a slow leak of combustion gases into the coolant system. I could make or possibly borrow an o-ring groove cutter, have the heads checked for porosity and use composite gaskets with o-rings and I think it'd hold OK.

I've also been looking for small diameter stainless tubing for the front end lift cylinders, I'm thinking 1/16 or 1/8" tubing would work fine, be easy to route and is flexible enough that a loop or two would be all I need near the connections to the cylinders. Small pressure hose was impossible to find but I think this will work.

Jim



BlownMGB-V8
Jim Blackwood
9406 Gunpowder Rd., Florence, KY 41042
(5834 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 12:59PM

Main British Car:
1971 MGB Blown,Injected,Intercooled Buick 340/AA80E/JagIRS

authors avatar
Re: 340 upgrade
Posted by: BlownMGB-V8
Date: January 11, 2008 01:06AM

You know I've been thinking about this transmission situation. Now I've pretty well determined that it's going to be an automatic, and with the 340 engine the choices are pretty much between the 2004r and the 700r4 and it's progeny except that the 700r4 is not available in a BOP pattern. But an automatic transmission really shifts like crap if you want to drive it hard. The rest of the time they're fine but for the twisties they never do what you want. They shift early, downshift or upshift when you want to stay in gear, don't downshift quick enough, don't upshift quick enough, and in general just miss the optimum shift point every time, to say nothing of the fact that they have absolutely no notion of how to enter a turn. Facing facts, it's just a dumb mechanical device. But then I've been driving this (relatively) new 2002 truck and it does a whole lot better. Reason is that the computer controls the shifts. So that must be the answer. Set it up so the computer can control it. No rocket science there, no new technology. My efi controller can handle that with very few changes. BUT, the 4L60E won't work without an adapter and the gears in that aren't as good as the ones in the 2004r that I already have. Hmmm.... both are 4 speeds with lock up converter.... I think I'll see if I can get a valve body from a 4L60E and see if I can adapt the computer controls to the 2004r. Wouldn't that be a trick? There might even be a market for it. If I'm really lucky the sensors and solenoids will lend themselves to being mounted to operate the 2004r shift valves and not much more will be needed but like most things it's never quite that simple. Well I guess that's one more item for my shopping list.

Jim


BlownMGB-V8
Jim Blackwood
9406 Gunpowder Rd., Florence, KY 41042
(5834 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 12:59PM

Main British Car:
1971 MGB Blown,Injected,Intercooled Buick 340/AA80E/JagIRS

authors avatar
Re: 340 upgrade
Posted by: BlownMGB-V8
Date: January 15, 2008 08:15PM

Here's a neat oil filler cap.
MVC-402S.JPG
If you've been following the PCV thread, this is part of the conversion to a British type pcv system and the cap contains a filter and an orifice to limit air going into the crankcase. The other valvecover is plumbed directly to the blower intake so at idle it sees full vacuum and at WOT it vents blowby into the inlet where it is re-ingested. This system seems like it'll work well with a blower installation where the throttle body is upstream of the blower inlet and also upstream of the filter housing, and gives me more leeway in designing the inlet for the M112 blower to go on the 340. I started the engine today (the Olds 215) and it looks like some recalibration may be in order, but it was quite cold so I'm quite certain the calibration would not have been correct at any rate as I don't believe I've had an opportunity to tune it at that low temperature. I didn't let it run long enough to warm up either so I have no conclusions yet about how well this system will work. The idle seemed high, but again, it was cold. Anyway, ain't that a purty part?

Jim


74ls1tr6
Calvin Grannis
Elk Grove,CA
(1150 posts)

Registered:
11/10/2007 10:05AM

Main British Car:
74 TR6 / 71 MGB GT TR6/Ls1 71 MGB GT/Ls1

authors avatar
Re: 340 upgrade
Posted by: 74ls1tr6
Date: January 21, 2008 08:51AM

Jim,

I have'nt been in looking at this post lately... but noticed the question on the measurements on the R200 diff. Today I will measure all over the R200. I also have a picture I will post later of the R200 out of the frame with the brackets on the diff.

I don't know if you looked at bowtie6.com (Joe's TR6 that has the long nose R200, which I believe is a strong R200..used in drag cars). Lots of picures to look at in his site.

Calvin


MGBV8
Carl Floyd
Kingsport, TN
(3791 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 11:32PM

Main British Car:
1979 MGB, Buick 215

authors avatar
Re: 340 upgrade
Posted by: MGBV8
Date: January 21, 2008 10:22AM

From bowtie6.com:

"The mass of a V8 would upset the handling and balance ..."

That urban legend just won't go away! ;)


74ls1tr6
Calvin Grannis
Elk Grove,CA
(1150 posts)

Registered:
11/10/2007 10:05AM

Main British Car:
74 TR6 / 71 MGB GT TR6/Ls1 71 MGB GT/Ls1

authors avatar
Re: 340 upgrade
Posted by: 74ls1tr6
Date: January 21, 2008 01:03PM

Carl,...OH no! "The mass of a V8 would upset the handling and balance ..."

I hope I have'nt made a mistake ;-)

Jim,....specs on R200

Front bolt mounts on R200 from Q45. .........6"1/8"
Front flange bolt up area outside to outside..8"1/8"..So case at that point is 4"1/8" or pinion staft area.
From Front U-joint flange to rear finned cover is...17"1/4"
From flange to flange on output to rear wheels...13"3/8" + or - a little
From output shaft to output shaft (case measurement)...8*1/2"
From bottom finned cover to top of case......9"1/8" + or - a little

Here is some pictures.
diff.jpg


diff rear.jpg


Picture 277.jpg


Picture 278.jpg


74ls1tr6
Calvin Grannis
Elk Grove,CA
(1150 posts)

Registered:
11/10/2007 10:05AM

Main British Car:
74 TR6 / 71 MGB GT TR6/Ls1 71 MGB GT/Ls1

authors avatar
Re: 340 upgrade
Posted by: 74ls1tr6
Date: January 21, 2008 01:09PM

more pics
Picture 282.jpg


Picture 279.jpg


Picture 281.jpg


Picture 275.jpg


BlownMGB-V8
Jim Blackwood
9406 Gunpowder Rd., Florence, KY 41042
(5834 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 12:59PM

Main British Car:
1971 MGB Blown,Injected,Intercooled Buick 340/AA80E/JagIRS

authors avatar
Re: 340 upgrade
Posted by: BlownMGB-V8
Date: January 21, 2008 02:21PM

MGBV8 Wrote:

> That urban legend just won't go away! ;)

We'll dispense with it once and for all when the Roadmaster is running.

So Carl, would you mind posting the update on the Roadmaster engine progress, or would you rather I did it? I probably need to get some info on there about the upcoming weekend.
-------------------------------------------------------

My opinion is that if Carl thinks an MGB with a V8 will handle, I'd like to see the guy who is qualified to dispute it. Maybe an MGB with a GMC 8-71 or something totally nutso like that... But then again, there might be a way...
No, NO, NO!!!! Absolutely NOT!!! I will not be a party to any such madness!!! (At least not until the Roadmaster and the 340 upgrade are done.) NO!!!!

This cold weather sure slows things down. One of these years I'll have real heat in the workshop and things will move along a bit quicker. For a boy who grew up with a barn with gaps between the boards of the walls and happy to have those and a home-made barrel heater, just having solid insulated walls and a clean concrete floor are a major plus. Guess I could build another barrel heater but it had a voracious appetite and I don't have enough trees on the place to feed it. Still, the gas furnace is in place, just need a little work to make it put out heat. Sad to say I just don't want to mess with it in the cold. Funny how that works. I could get real creative and make a propane powered oil burning radiant monster in the middle of the floor, which would be kinda fun to build, but then it'd be in the way most of the time. Anybody guess it's cold today?

I'm hoping to be able to mock up the engine and blower in a few weeks and begin tacking parts together for the blower intake. For that to happen I will need to get Dale to ship back to me the two heads that we aren't going to use for this engine. I'll use that pair of heads for fitting and then possibly sell them when I'm done. Don't know if I'll use the heat-pipe intercooler this time or not. It seemed to work pretty well, and visibility over the scoop hasn't been a problem, but I must confess it looks a little odd. I will have to datalog some runs with it before I can make a decision one way or the other, and the alternatives will be an air/liquid system or air/air. If I were to go air/air I really think I'd have to look at alternatives to a front radiator.

I really wanted to build an engine with a higher rpm potential. But this block came with cast pistons fitted. If they were low compression slugs I'd be motivated to move up to forged, but since they have the CR I'm looking for it makes it much harder to justify the purchase. Especially when power is not even an issue. I have one or two things to finish up before I'll have the bench space to tear down the short block but once I look at the pistons and the bore clearances I might change my mind about it. I'd really love to have a 7 grand redline. It's just more fun.

I won the bid on a 4l60e valve body so in a few days I'll get a chance to see what needs to be done to fit the shifting solenoids from it to the 2004r. Megasquirt can control all of the shift parameters as well as the line pressure if I can put the hardware together so at least in theory there's the chance of getting the shifting under control. If I get it to work, this may be a product that Blackwood Labs will have to make available for purchase. But we'll see. There's much to do first.

Jim


74ls1tr6
Calvin Grannis
Elk Grove,CA
(1150 posts)

Registered:
11/10/2007 10:05AM

Main British Car:
74 TR6 / 71 MGB GT TR6/Ls1 71 MGB GT/Ls1

authors avatar
Re: 340 upgrade
Posted by: 74ls1tr6
Date: January 22, 2008 06:06PM

Jim,

Check this thread out..it may have some info in there for you that might interest you. Talks about Nissan differentials.

[forums.hybridz.org]



MGBV8
Carl Floyd
Kingsport, TN
(3791 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 11:32PM

Main British Car:
1979 MGB, Buick 215

authors avatar
Re: 340 upgrade
Posted by: MGBV8
Date: January 22, 2008 07:43PM

"So Carl, would you mind posting the update on the Roadmaster engine progress, or would you rather I did it?"

Sorry Jim, I'm off to do Boy Scouts tonight. Besides, it's more fun to read your stuff! :)


BlownMGB-V8
Jim Blackwood
9406 Gunpowder Rd., Florence, KY 41042
(5834 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 12:59PM

Main British Car:
1971 MGB Blown,Injected,Intercooled Buick 340/AA80E/JagIRS

authors avatar
Re: 340 upgrade
Posted by: BlownMGB-V8
Date: January 22, 2008 11:19PM

MGBV8 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Besides, it's more fun to read your stuff! :)

OK Carl, I'll take care of it, soon as I can get the cat to let me be.

Calvin, that was some very good info. I did some measuring and we only have a fraction over 7" between the battery boxes so the diff you used is too wide at the mounts. But in looking at the long nose (R200) diff it looks like it could be narrow enough to work. That might bear looking into, do you think you could confirm? Both sets of front mount bosses would need to be narrower than 7" outside to outside and the rear mounts might still be a challenge, but perhaps that could be designed around. At just under an 8" ring diameter I'm still a little skeptical about the strength of the ring and pinion where I am expecting to have significantly more than 400 ft/lbs of available torque with the blower (375 stock N/A) but perhaps the light weight of the car will offset that some. I can appreciate the advantage in leverage of the longer housing, especially as it is only 4 lbs heavier than the short version. Too bad they never made an R215. Anyway, it bears further investigation, especially as the 8.8 expedition unit does not seem to be real common.

Jim


74ls1tr6
Calvin Grannis
Elk Grove,CA
(1150 posts)

Registered:
11/10/2007 10:05AM

Main British Car:
74 TR6 / 71 MGB GT TR6/Ls1 71 MGB GT/Ls1

authors avatar
Re: 340 upgrade
Posted by: 74ls1tr6
Date: February 02, 2008 12:20AM

Jim,

Here is another site for Long nose R200.

Site below.

[www.datsport.com]

I'm trying to find you the measurements on the pinoin area.

Calvin


BlownMGB-V8
Jim Blackwood
9406 Gunpowder Rd., Florence, KY 41042
(5834 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 12:59PM

Main British Car:
1971 MGB Blown,Injected,Intercooled Buick 340/AA80E/JagIRS

authors avatar
Re: 340 upgrade
Posted by: BlownMGB-V8
Date: February 02, 2008 10:53AM

Thanks Calvin. No LN R200's presently on ebay, but two interesting possibilities are the BMW 735i diff and the Mopar 8-3/4" unit. The Beemer may be compact enough and has a nice 3 bolt side attachment on the pinion, the main issue being the depth of the rear cover, which is replaceable. The Mopar is a drop out center section much like the 8 and 9" Ford but appears to have a higher pinion location which would make it more efficient (my main complaint with the Ford diffs) and the housing could be modified to IRS configuration. I don't know how common they are or what vehicles they were used on but I'm guessing they ought to be about as common as dirt. It's a good bit of extra work over finding one that will work without modification but could be worthwhile.

I'm planning on picking up a dead 735 diff on Monday to test fit it to the car and should know more after that.

Jim


MGBV8
Carl Floyd
Kingsport, TN
(3791 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 11:32PM

Main British Car:
1979 MGB, Buick 215

authors avatar
Re: 340 upgrade
Posted by: MGBV8
Date: February 02, 2008 01:22PM

"The Mopar is a drop out center section much like the 8 and 9" Ford but appears to have a higher pinion location which would make it more efficient (my main complaint with the Ford diffs)"

Mine too. The 8.75 Mopar is a very good unit. I have a friend that has one under a 57 Chevy with a 6-71 blower.
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