MG Sports Cars

Hi;

I am removing a Spax front shock kit that is mounted on MY MGB Shell. The Spax setup is for sale if you are interested. It will interfere with my through the fender headers, so I am going to need to either go back to the Armstrongs, or upgrade the front end.

Since I am upgrading everything else, I am considering options. This one from Moss looks really nice:

[www.mossmotors.com]

This is a nice looking coilover shock setup that fits in the location where the springs and shocks live already.

So, do you have any experience with these? What do you think of them? Are the uprated springs too stiiff? Ideas and input welcome! Thanks.
(This car is really fun to wrench on!)

Requires serious cutting of the crossmember. I would go to Armstrongs and air springs.

Jim

I have just built one of these up, not on the car yest. Yes you have to cut a circuler hole in the top but its not hard, just tedious. The kit comes with metal templates etc so you cannot get it wrong. Also, the cutting does not effect refitting the original suspension so if you wish to go back to original, no problem



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/07/2012 03:07PM by avbates.

The Moss kit has been around a long time. I bought it and installed it on my MGB right around 1991, and I used it until spring of this year (2012). In the end, one of my shock absorbers either wore out or got damaged - after 20 years of service it puked its oil and had to be replaced - so I took the opportunity to redesign and improve aspects of the suspension. More about that below...

Moss has made some important changes and improvements over all those years since I bought their kit. Serviceability was greatly improved by increasing the diameter of the shaft that goes through the pillow blocks at the top (i.e. the one that the shock absorber and upper control arm pivot on). Also, the current GAZ shock absorbers seem to work much better than the original shocks. (The original supplier went out of business. The new shocks appear to be a bit beefier too.)

Someone should probably point out that the photo above is slightly misleading in one respect. It shows the spring pan installed upside-down.

With regard to modifying the crossmember, I'm certain Jim must be thinking of a different (now obsolete) design from a different supplier. The modification required to fit the Moss kit is absolutely trivial. Basically, you just have to remove a circular disc of material (~1.5 inches diameter) for the top end of the coilover to poke through. The metal removed was dead weight anyhow. The instructions are very clear, and the job isn't difficult.

The big selling points of this kit are ride quality (only because and to the extent that the more modern shock absorber functions better than the original lever shock), easy/accurate ride height and corner weight adjustability, and that it's easy and inexpensive to select or change spring rate. From my point of view, the disappointing aspects of the Moss kit are that it doesn't reduce weight - sprung or unsprung! - and it's rather unambitious from a suspension geometry point of view. When I installed the Moss kit, I did exactly what most any BritishV8 guy would do - I set the ride height quite a bit lower than stock. The inevitable problem with doing that is the very same problem as using regular "lowering" springs: it screws up the front suspension geometry, resulting in roll steer and bump steer while simultaneously shifting the front suspension's roll center quite a bit lower than it ought to be.

So what did I do this spring? A lot, considering it was all done at the very last minute before departing for BritishV8 2012.

My assessment is that the Moss kit is a pretty good start, but it can be dramatically improved upon with off-the-shelf parts from a different supplier. Specifically, I called up John Targett (Targett Motorsports) and ordered a set of dropped spindles from him. (John sells the ones that Dick Luening makes, not the ones that Dave Headley makes.) With the dropped spindles John sells, about an inch of material has been cut off of an MGB upright casting and about an inch of new material has been added at the bottom. You swap your standard kingpins into them; there's no need for special extended kingpins. The Targett/Luening spindles come with dust shields, and with zerk fittings so you can keep them properly lubricated for street use. (That was important to me.) Now here's the catch! You've lowered your car by inch without fitting lowering springs, but you've moved the bolts where your steering arms attach upward by an inch too and that's enough to give you a dreadful bump steer problem. I made a second call to John and then a call to Dick... and Dick got me set up with specially modified steering arms that fixed the problem. Fast and easy. An alternative would be to use Heim joints and shim washers, but I wouldn't recommend that for a street car.

Instead of reinstalling pillow blocks like the Moss kit uses, I decided it would be more fun to gut and rework old Armstrong shock absorbers as shown in this How It Was Done article: [www.britishv8.org] (Note: Henk-Jan would be happy to supply similarly modified shocks to anyone who wants them, for a fair price.)

I ordered replacement GAZ shock absorbers from Moss Europe... and they arrived in Colorado just three days later.

What about springs? For a GT, I believe Moss recommends 475#/inch springs, but also offers higher spring rates too. Normally they supply 7" springs. Rather than buy springs from Moss Europe, I fitted 525#/inch, 6" long, Made-in-USA Eibach springs. (If you use a non-standard spring, be careful to check that it won't reach coil bind within the working range of the shock absorber.) I'm very happy with the 525#/inch springs. If anything, I'd go a little stiffer rather than softer.

I plan to write a more detailed article about this, so I'll stop rambling on. Photos will come with the article, but a couple preliminary snapshots already appear here: [forum.britishv8.org]

Good info Curtis. Guess I was thinking of a different kit. But the air springs do remove couple pounds of weight each.

Jim

Thank you for the write-up Curtis. This is a lot of useful information! I have been eyeing Henk-Jan's setup as well. Whatever I do, I'll post details.

Have you checked these out.
I have them fitted to my BGT V8, the work involved is the same as the Moss kit but I think this offeres more adjustment.
[www.hoyle-engineering.co.uk]

Those look nice... Pricey by the time they make it to California, but I can see the value in the design.

I have been eyeing these really nice upgraded Armstrong shocks with a dial adjustment valve mounted in the wheel well. They are made by Peter Caldwell peter@nosimport.com. Could be a god option and not too pricey for a full set.

Hi

There is a kit on sale over here that looks very similar.

I cannot see from your photgraph if there is a new damper or if it uses the lever arm ones.

The kit here adds a telescopic damper, the internals of the lever arm ones are removed and the unit just acts as the top suspension arms

John

Here is a bit more information on the valved Armstrong shocks:

Thank you for asking about our adjustable Armstrong shocks.

Having been in the remanufacturing business of Armstrong lever shocks for many, many years, we have had the opportunity to rebuild a few of the original Armstrong "Adjustable 22" externally adjustable shocks. You can find examples of these in some of the original special tuning parts manuals. Armstrong had different castings made for some of these models, but did not make them available for all of their various models of shocks. Because the body is somewhat larger and had a large adjusting knob, not all cars could be fitted with the "Adjustable 22" units.

We have been able to use their same principles and apply them to a wider variety of lever shocks by employing an external and remotely mountable valve alleviating the need for new castings and fitment constraints.. The way the Adjustable 22's and our shocks work is by utilizing an extremely stiff modified main original "co-axial" valve assembly in the usual position, and providing a bypass circuit with a variable needle valve that allows adjustment of the volume of oil that passes through the co-axial main valve. (The "22" meant that Armstrong had 22 steps of adjustment.) Our valve is variable without steps, and can allow the shock to be locked solid without moving, to full, undampened movement. By machining the co-axial valve and replacing the springs with our custom made ones we succeed in providing a damping rate equivalent to full competition at 1-1/2 turns open of a potential 5 turns.

The valve is of brass body full flow stainless steel needle construction. Connections between shock and valve are similar to brake hydraulic equipment. We've been able to test fit these on all of the models we offer to ensure accessibility and roadworthiness.

Historically, shocks become less effective as the oil heats. Our experience has been at about 20 - 25 minutes of track work, the shocks lose their dampening. After several attempts, we are now using Redline's suspension oils, and have been very pleased with the performance, especially in this application.

The modifications of the adjustable shocks are performed on our highly regarded remanufactured units. We install sleeve bearings in the bodies, install stainless shaft sleeves, and install radial lip oil seals. Pistons and bodies are selected for their proven reliability using the best combinations.

Each order is custom made so that we can consider your intended use, as well as any additional equipment you may have that would affect the mounting of the valve. We also like to know if the ride height is significantly changed as we can ensure the pistons are working in their mid-range most of the time.


Peter Caldwell
World Wide Auto Parts of Madison
2517 Seiferth Rd.
Madison WI USA 53716-3302
US WATS (800) 362-1025
(608) 223-9400
(608) 223-9403 fax

www.worldwideimportautoparts.com
www.nosimport.com

John;

I am going to inquire about the Hoyle units too as they do look good. You wouldn't happen to have a photo of the crossmember modification by any chance would you?

It is not a great one (I will see if I can find a better one(, but if you zoom in you can see the semi-circular cut out (with a new section of metal added) at the end of the cross member

John

This one is better

Yeah, that looks pretty irreversible to me.

I would be more interested in the adjustable Armstrong shocks. WW has a very good reputation for rebuilds and it sounds like they've got the details worked out. Also it looks like the adjuster could be located inside the engine compartment for easy access. That should complement air springs perfectly.

Jim

Jim;

Can you post a link to the air springs you suggest using? I agree that WW has a great reputation. I am leaning in that direction.

Robert, I worked up a kit for the air springs, they are on four cars now. My RD, Steve DeGroat's GT, the Roadmaster, and Bill Davidson,'s RD.
Nothing currently in stock but if you are interested I can re-order. I have guages, line, and some fittings. The kit included a small compact compressor, bleed valve, push button, check valve, all the fittings and hose needed, and of course the air springs, modified for the MG and leak checked.

Send me a pm if you are interested. You can work the controls in different ways.

Jim

Here are photos o the Hoyle conversion here. The only problem I had was one fo the holes in the brackets was in th wrong spot and would not allow the camber to be in range. I had to weld up a hole and re-drill the hole:


[www.rc-tech.net]

Gary,

Had no problem with mine, it all fitted with no alterations.

I notice you mention Hawk, if I am correct the kit was a joint development between Hawk and Hoyle Engineering.

The curved insert is part of the kit over here

John

As a follow up, here is what I went with. I am using the Armstrong dial adjustable shocks from Worldwide Auto Parts of Madison Wisconsin. I placed the dial adjustment in front of the shocks rather than behind them as I do not want the fluid in the shocks to heat up next to the through the well headers.

Looking good. Can you let us know how you like them? I do not think we've gotten any reports on the externally adjustables so far.

Jim