MG Sports Cars

engine swaps and other performance upgrades, plus "factory" and Costello V8s

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Burrogs
Matt Burroughs
Houston, TX
(37 posts)

Registered:
01/18/2016 02:19PM

Main British Car:
1970 MGB GT V8 Conversion Ford 331ci

authors avatar
Weber 8-stack vs Holley EFI
Posted by: Burrogs
Date: January 25, 2016 06:23PM

Hi Guys, Iím looking to redo my fuel system and am considering a couple of options, I'm estimating costs to be about $3,500 for each setup.

Iíve got a SBF stroked 331 and am currently running a Holley Ultra 750 DP and a Ford Racing dual plane intake manifold with a Sceptre dual plenum CAI. The car runs ok, is a bit boggy under 3k RPM, and experiences cold start issues at temps below 50F. The air intake is...let's just say not what I would have chosen...

Option 1: Holley Terminator Stealth EFI Ė Carb look EFI that isnít out yet. This will require I get a Single Plane intake manifold, new pressure regulator, and will keep my current CAI setup

Benefits: Self tuning, increased gas mileage, reduced gassy garage smell, increased throttle response, no cold start issues.

Cons: Looks exactly the same as current setup, could be finicky with the addition of O2 sensors and all that comes with that. New tech now is old tech in a few years. Not sure where to turn in 10 years if I have an issue.

Option 2: Weber 8-stack Ė SBF 4x44 IDF setup is likely what Iíd get.

Benefits: Drop dead looks, improved throttle response and HP in the low RPM range (where my car lives), Gets rid of the CAI setup, statement piece, ignorance is bliss mechanical setup. Donít spend $3,500 and wonder where it went when I open the hood.

Cons: Finicky, may actually increase gassy smell garage, old tech, I must be missing something if people switch from Weber to Holley setups?

Under either scenario I will have a professional install and tune it properly on a dyno.

I know thereís 8-stack EFI setups out there, but they are ridiculously expensive (2x the cost of these) and letís be honest, this is an MGB, and not a show car.

What do you all think? ALL opinions welcome.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 01/26/2016 10:42AM by Burrogs.


tr6turbo
Dale Knapke
Sidney, Ohio
(165 posts)

Registered:
08/24/2008 09:44PM

Main British Car:
1972 Triumph TR6 Ford 2300, 4 Cyl Turbo

Re: Weber 8-stack vs Holley EFI
Posted by: tr6turbo
Date: January 25, 2016 06:41PM

I run a Holley Dominater on a 2.3 Ford turbo in Triumph TR6. I highly recommend it.


rubbinisracin
Ivan Collins

(38 posts)

Registered:
03/19/2013 09:34AM

Main British Car:


Re: Weber 8-stack vs Holley EFI
Posted by: rubbinisracin
Date: January 26, 2016 08:56AM

I looked into one of these from [ingleseinductionsystems.com] and even talked to someone there for a bit, but just couldn't pull the trigger when comparing to the cost of my Holley DP 650. One of the things that popped up was the air cleaner issue, it can be tricky with the stacks and also hood clearance. But the sound and the throttle response would be awesome.


Burrogs
Matt Burroughs
Houston, TX
(37 posts)

Registered:
01/18/2016 02:19PM

Main British Car:
1970 MGB GT V8 Conversion Ford 331ci

authors avatar
Re: Weber 8-stack vs Holley EFI
Posted by: Burrogs
Date: January 26, 2016 10:42AM

Thanks for the replies, I've got the Preform RV8 hood with the "power dome" so I don't think that hood clearance would be too much of an issue. Actually, the dual plenum CAI that I've got now causes a bit on an issue as it rubs ever so slightly on the outside frame of the hood. I believe the IDF Webers are shorter than the IDAs (and supposedly more streetable). Additionally, I've read the stacks can be shortened about an inch if it is still an issue. As for tea strainers or air cleaner elements, I may run into an issue there.

Jim Inglese makes some serious stuff...and commands a serious price.


rficalora
Rob Ficalora
Willis, TX
(2636 posts)

Registered:
10/24/2007 02:46PM

Main British Car:
'76 MGB w/CB front, Sebring rear, early metal dash Ford 302

authors avatar
Re: Weber 8-stack vs Holley EFI
Posted by: rficalora
Date: January 27, 2016 07:49AM

Matt, who's doing the tuning on your carb? Reason I ask is because it sounds like your current carb it isn't fully tuned. If that's true and the same tuner tries to get the webers dialed in and synchronized, you might continue to have difficulties such that one of the carb looking EFi kits might be a better choice.

If you really want the bling/cool factor of the webers, you might want to reach out to S&S Performance Carburetors here in Houston. He can tune your existing carb and may be able to help with a Weber set-up (although when I had home help on my carb, I think he said he only works on Holley's. Your carb, like mine, sounds a bit big for the motor. If air bleeds and power valves in addition to jets haven't been addressed, you'll be surprised how smooth and responsive tour existing set-up can be.


Burrogs
Matt Burroughs
Houston, TX
(37 posts)

Registered:
01/18/2016 02:19PM

Main British Car:
1970 MGB GT V8 Conversion Ford 331ci

authors avatar
Re: Weber 8-stack vs Holley EFI
Posted by: Burrogs
Date: January 27, 2016 10:20AM

Thanks Rob, I'll give them a shout and maybe take it by to see if they can improve on anything. I haven't had anyone local tune the cab, it seems to run fine, idle fine, and act pretty much the way I would have expected a race carb to work on a street machine.

I did some more internet browsing and it looks like for a little bit more $$$ (maybe another grand), I may be able to make an Inglese 8 stack EFI system work. I think this would be the best of both worlds. Maybe I'll get my current carb looked at and dialed in (at least I'll know for sure), then save up for the Inglese EFI kit.


burner1
Gary W

(212 posts)

Registered:
09/24/2011 09:59AM

Main British Car:


Re: Weber 8-stack vs Holley EFI
Posted by: burner1
Date: January 27, 2016 06:36PM

I would have to agree if you have those kinds of problems your carb or even timing is not tuned as well as it could.

If you are serious about individual induction systems you may evaluate the cam overlap.

I rebuilt the Webbers on my Pantera. They are certainly easy to work on and do look great. Not always the best choice though.

http://www.rc-tech.net/pantera1/as3/EngComp1.jpg

EFI is a great choice for those who really don't want to get involved in tuning.

If you want to work on tuning more an O2 gauge can be extremely helpful. I mounted mine behind the radio delete plate which is held on with magnets:

http://www.rc-tech.net/cars2/mg2/cleanup/gp2.jpg

http://www.rc-tech.net/cars2/mg2/cleanup/gp3.jpg



DiDueColpi
Fred Key
West coast - Canada
(1259 posts)

Registered:
05/14/2010 03:06AM

Main British Car:
What if the Hokey Pokey really is what it's all about?

authors avatar
Re: Weber 8-stack vs Holley EFI
Posted by: DiDueColpi
Date: January 27, 2016 10:05PM

Hey Matt,

I'm going to echo Rob's comment.
Your current setup is capable of running well.
Just because it's a "race" carb doesn't mean it has to have bad manners.
The opposite is generally true. A race carb is more tunable than the standard fare.
Getting your engine set up properly (that includes the ignition) will make a world of difference.
However the Weber setup is pretty darn attractive.
It looks great ( because it's shiny and has all those masculine things pointing straight up) and the sound is second to none.
The down side is the tuning and adjustment, the fuel smell when parked, packaging under your hood and the inevitable constant tinkering that goes with something that has that much linkage.
Must have had some Bentley involvement, they can't build anything without "linkage".
As the brochure says, "No complexity will be spared in the pursuit of perfection".
Inglese will give you a very good system set up as near as possible to your requirements.
But there will always be room for improvement and refinement.
With 8 barrels and countless combinations of venturies and jets and emulsion tubes and air bleeds etc. It can get very expensive to have an expert tune it to your particular combination.
You will notice more fuel smell when parked. Just makes sense, you now have 8 fuel bowls venting rather than 2.
Clearance under your hood will be tight as these things are tall. As Gary's Pantera shows.(BTW very nice Gary)
The Inglese linkage is as bulletproof as it gets but it does and will go out of adjustment.
As well the sheer temptation to just touch it is irresistible. And so you will, and often.
Having laid all that out, it would probably be my first choice anyway. I love the look and tinkering is what I do.
As far as fuel injection, I think that far and away it's your best choice.
I would not choose a TBI system though. It comes with almost all of the drawbacks of a traditional 4bbl system, with added cost and complexity thrown in for good measure.
These style of carb replacement systems exist solely because they are an easy way to fuel inject a massive variety of power plants.
Kinda the yoga pants of fuel injection. It fit's a lot of people, but it doesn't work out like you hoped.
So that leaves port injection. The best choice for you in my opinion ( said the man high atop his own personal mountain)
The choices here are mind numbing. From stock 5.0, to build it yourself Mega Squirt, to custom race pieces that look like jewelry.
Or..............talk to Inglese.
They have partnered with FAST and they also have a crossram manifold for the small Ford.
You can have the fantastic look of the 8 stack with the clearance that you need. Tuneable fuel injection from one of the leaders in the market. And no fuel smell.
Winner winner chicken dinner!
It'll probably cost more than your first divorce, but it's worth it don't ya think?
If you decide to go this route, and money is tight. Buy the manifold first. They only made a small run of them. The fuel injection parts will always be around. As well as the DCOE's that the manifold was designed for.
So there you have it, my scotchty scotch induced ramblings.

Live like you mean it.
Fred


BlownMGB-V8
Jim Blackwood
9406 Gunpowder Rd., Florence, KY 41042
(5833 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 12:59PM

Main British Car:
1971 MGB Blown,Injected,Intercooled Buick 340/AA80E/JagIRS

authors avatar
Re: Weber 8-stack vs Holley EFI
Posted by: BlownMGB-V8
Date: January 28, 2016 09:34AM

Yeah. What Fred said.

Jim


Burrogs
Matt Burroughs
Houston, TX
(37 posts)

Registered:
01/18/2016 02:19PM

Main British Car:
1970 MGB GT V8 Conversion Ford 331ci

authors avatar
Re: Weber 8-stack vs Holley EFI
Posted by: Burrogs
Date: January 28, 2016 03:57PM

Well first things first, I'll call up the shop and have them take an independent look at the carb and see what they say.

Gary, your setup looks great! A coworker of mine has a Pantera with a weber 8 stack too. Interestingly, I've been reading abou them on Pantera and GT40 forums as they seem to be the only ones vocal about them with SBFs.

Fred, I appreciate your analysis and recommendation. After some soul searching I think I've accepted the reality that I won't be happy with the TBI, and will always long for the 8-stack. I'm not intending to sell this car anytime soon and I'm more of a do it once do it right kinda guy so I think I'm going to bite the bullet, continue to search the web for used deals, and save up for either the Borla or Inglese setup. I've read that the manifold and stacks are the same on each, although I'm not sure that's true. I have NOT read anything positive about the EZ EFI 2.0 setup though, so I'm not sure if I should buy the kit or just the manifold. I fell like if they offer it as a kit it SHOULD work, but who knows. It's cheaper up front to buy the kit, but something tells me that to tune it right, you're going to want to get in and work the tables yourself on a laptop. I'd hate to waste $800 on vaporware that could have gone towards the right management system. I've also heard that the customer support is a bit lacking at FAST compared to other vendors. My guy has got a guy, as they say, so I'll reach out to him and see what he prefers. I believe he may have some connections at Kinsler so I may give them a look too. I know they make killer stuff, but will likely command a commensurate pricetag. Thanks again everyone.

For grins I've attached some pics of my enginebay just so you can see what I'm working with.

Matt
DSC03467.jpg
DSC03472.jpg
SS0307151.jpg


DiDueColpi
Fred Key
West coast - Canada
(1259 posts)

Registered:
05/14/2010 03:06AM

Main British Car:
What if the Hokey Pokey really is what it's all about?

authors avatar
Re: Weber 8-stack vs Holley EFI
Posted by: DiDueColpi
Date: January 28, 2016 05:08PM

Very nice car Matt,

Just to reassure you Matt. Inglese is very meticulous. If he sells it, it works, for sure.
We have installed a few FAST systems here and repaired a few that wouldn't run right.
I've been pretty happy with them.
Every single issue that we've ever had to repair has been related to a botched installation.
Ie. When they say use shielded wires and resistor plugs. Then you should use shielded wires and resistor plugs.
And never let an analog MSD box anywhere near it.
That goes for any electronic fuel injection system.
They are all very sensitive to EMF interference.
One of the easiest ways to check for issues is to grab a good old cheap transistor AM radio.
Tune the radio to around 800 start up your engine and listen. If you can hear your ignition, alternator, fuel pump, rad fan, heater motor etc. then so can the fuel injection computer. And it won't like it. It don't dance to that tune.
Second is power, ground and charge integrity. They have to be rock solid.
Third is proper fuel delivery. Consistent, regulated, air free fuel.
There are other issues with consumer installed systems but these are the top three that we run into.
Anyway FAST has been around for a long time. If it was as problematic as the internet trolls say. I don't think we would have the opportunity to buy their products anymore.

Cheers
Fred


BlownMGB-V8
Jim Blackwood
9406 Gunpowder Rd., Florence, KY 41042
(5833 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 12:59PM

Main British Car:
1971 MGB Blown,Injected,Intercooled Buick 340/AA80E/JagIRS

authors avatar
Re: Weber 8-stack vs Holley EFI
Posted by: BlownMGB-V8
Date: January 29, 2016 12:53AM

If you do look into the MS option, have a look at the MS-3. It might be more appropriate for an IR system.

Jim


HealeyRick
Rick Neville

(468 posts)

Registered:
12/19/2007 05:01PM

Main British Car:
1963 Austin-Healey 3000 Ford 5.0L

authors avatar
Re: Weber 8-stack vs Holley EFI
Posted by: HealeyRick
Date: January 29, 2016 07:44PM

Just another thought. A lot of the Cobra replica guys are running stacks with an SBF. You can post here with questions: [www.ffcars.com] Lots of knowledge there and are very responsive.


Nexxussian
Erik Johnson
Alaska
(62 posts)

Registered:
04/20/2015 10:32PM

Main British Car:
1974, MGB, Citroen Color Rover V8

Re: Weber 8-stack vs Holley EFI
Posted by: Nexxussian
Date: February 11, 2016 12:08AM

Matt B.

I have a 331 in an OT vehicle (1931 Model A Ford).

I've had Holley and Edelbrock carbs on it.

An 8 stack of Webbers is awesome looking, and Ingelese can assemble a set to pretty much any engine spec.

If your goal is better response at low speed and / or light throttle settings, any of the retrofit EFI systems should get you that, as well as the Webbers.

The Webbers have a cool sound at part throttle, as well as WFO, for short trips, longer trips they rank up there with side pipes, cool in short bursts, not so cool after the 3rd hour in. :(

The best single tuning upgrade on my 331 was changing to MSD's Atomic EFI.

Sounded completely different than with any carb I had tried, picked up a couple MPG and was more responsive to throttle inputs.

Several firmware updates later and it keeps getting better. :)

Specifics on my engine for accurate comparison to yours:

331 CI SBF (1968 302 block)
10.25:1
AFR 165 CC heads (1.94 intake, 58 CC chambers)
Edelbrock RPM Air Gap
Custom Comp hydraulic roller, slightly tighter LSA prototype of the biggest SBF Thumper in the catalog
MSD "E Curve" distributor (Blaster II coil, mechanical advance locked, 20į start retard, full time vacuum advance)
Atomic EFI, standard kit W/ pump, filter and hose
1 5/8" Sanderson Block Huggers
2 1/2" true duals
(2 ea) Dynomax "Super Turbo" 17769s (3", used stepped reducer on the inlet with the pipe passed in almost an inch beyond the step to kill reversion and drone)
11 Lb Aluminum SFI certified flywheel.
Hays 95-201 Clutch set (10.5", Steel cover, Iron pressure ring, diaphragm spring, sprung hub button style clutch)
Summit Racing house brand urethane safety engine mounts
'92 Mustang T5
4.30 rear gear
27.8" tall rear tires
2510 Lb vehicle ready to drive, less driver. (car, full fluids, spares, extra oil, coolant and a few tools)

I keep tweaking on the tune, as I've had the engine apart a few times chasing a stubborn rear seal leak.

I tighten the quench clearance each time (0.034" currently) and it runs a bit better, each time.

Locking out the timing was initially a tuning tool for me, the car drove better with it, so I left it in there.

Point to all this, you may well be able to get the carb you have to run as you like, but any of the options you mention considering should get you there.

Ingelese will need to know at least everything I listed of mine, for yours, and perhaps a bit more.


Burrogs
Matt Burroughs
Houston, TX
(37 posts)

Registered:
01/18/2016 02:19PM

Main British Car:
1970 MGB GT V8 Conversion Ford 331ci

authors avatar
Re: Weber 8-stack vs Holley EFI
Posted by: Burrogs
Date: February 11, 2016 10:50AM

Erik,

Thanks for the detailed info. I was going to update the post when the parts are in hand, but a little over a week ago I went ahead and ordered the Inglese Eightstack EFI system with Fast EZ EFI 2.0. I think they're backordered a bit, but hopefully I'll have it by the end of the month. My set-up (off the top of my head is as follows)

331 CI SBF (new 302 block)
9.6:1 Compression
AFR 185 58CC heads
Crower stainless roller rockers
Custom Comp 224 hydraulic roller, mild(er) cam
MSD Pro Billet Dist, MSD Coil, and MSD 6AL Ignition
Ford Racing Dual plane intake
Holley Ultra 750 DP, mechanical secondaries with In-tank fuel pump, braided lines
Billet Specialties front runner set-up with 140 amp Alt
Fast Cars Inc Block Huggers
2 1/2 2 into 1 Exhaust
SFI Quicktime Bellhousing
Tremec TKO ĖMMR750 5speed
Centerforce Clutch/Flywheel set
Hyd Throwout
Pro 5.0 shifter
Speedway Engineering 9Ē rear end
N Case 3.55 Trac Loc
Billet Strange Yoke
Flowmaster Muffler with Magnaflow tip
Not sure on tires, 255/40/17 Hankooks for now.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/11/2016 11:12AM by Burrogs.



Nexxussian
Erik Johnson
Alaska
(62 posts)

Registered:
04/20/2015 10:32PM

Main British Car:
1974, MGB, Citroen Color Rover V8

Re: Weber 8-stack vs Holley EFI
Posted by: Nexxussian
Date: February 12, 2016 11:39PM

Glad to be of help. :)


Please make a thread of the install, complete with running and test drive videos, pleeease. :)


Burrogs
Matt Burroughs
Houston, TX
(37 posts)

Registered:
01/18/2016 02:19PM

Main British Car:
1970 MGB GT V8 Conversion Ford 331ci

authors avatar
Re: Weber 8-stack vs Holley EFI
Posted by: Burrogs
Date: July 13, 2016 11:02AM

After a LONG wait, the Inglese 8 stack EFI kit has been installed and is up and running. Unfortunately, I don't have many pics of the install as it fought pretty much the entire way. My mechanic spent the better part of 3 months (spare time) installing it and due to all of the numerous setbacks, he didn't take pics.

In short, the system is awesome, but don't fool yourself thinking this is a weekend install (as advertised).

Here are some pics. We still need to clean up some wiring and some minor things, but the good news is it fits under the RV8 hood with the filters.

Sorry it took so long to post back. I'll try to get a driving video up later on.
Inglese1.jpg
Inglese2.jpg
Inglese4.jpg
Inglese5.jpg


rficalora
Rob Ficalora
Willis, TX
(2636 posts)

Registered:
10/24/2007 02:46PM

Main British Car:
'76 MGB w/CB front, Sebring rear, early metal dash Ford 302

authors avatar
Re: Weber 8-stack vs Holley EFI
Posted by: rficalora
Date: July 14, 2016 02:35AM

Look great Matt. Can't wait to see & hear it in person.


Anarchy99
Jim Purdy
Memphis, TN
(118 posts)

Registered:
12/06/2013 03:54PM

Main British Car:
61 austin healey sprite LS6

Re: Weber 8-stack vs Holley EFI
Posted by: Anarchy99
Date: July 14, 2016 04:17PM

That has me thinking about swapping from a single holley carb in my setup to one of the 8 stack type setups out there. They look great!!!!


DiDueColpi
Fred Key
West coast - Canada
(1259 posts)

Registered:
05/14/2010 03:06AM

Main British Car:
What if the Hokey Pokey really is what it's all about?

authors avatar
Re: Weber 8-stack vs Holley EFI
Posted by: DiDueColpi
Date: July 14, 2016 10:32PM

Nice to see that you went "all out " with it Matt.
Sounds awesome doesn't it?
I'll bet that even with the time and money spent, it was worth it.
What do you think of all the naysayers now?

Live like you mean it.
Fred
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