MG Sports Cars

12 months ago I purchased a 57MGA and started to plan the restoration. 6 months ago I stumbled upon this site and the project has taken a 180 degree turn for the better, at least temporarily!. My question is this. Are there any benefits to a Ford V8 vs a Chevy V8, or vice versa with respects to modifications, installation, headaches, etc?
Thanks

Welcome Dan!

I predict and hope you get lots of conflicting opinions on this question... that makes for good discussion. The MGA aspect certainly adds an interesting wrinkle. May I suggest you give us more background info about your needs and wants?

Where and how do you hope to use the completed car?

What skills, tools, and schedule expectations do you bring to the project? Will you have to farm work out?

Just as one example, are you comfortable designing and making your own sheetmetal fabrications? How about structural mods?

Many benefits of one engine vs the other can be overcome if you have the resources. For example: "stock" small block Chevy's are relatively heavy - but aluminum engine blocks and heads are available. Do you have a budget?

Curtis,
Thanks for the response. I look forward to the discussions. My goal is to keep the car as original in appearance as possible, just with a lot more power and reliability. Luckily I have experienced help in sheetmetal fabrication and structural modifacations, so I am covered there.

Dan

To answer your direct question or at least part of it, The Small block Ford (302, 5.0) is lighter and not as wide as the small block Chevy, but the Ford has the oil pump in the front of the motor and this (at least with the B) causes some cross member issues.

As far as the MGA I have no idea, but if you haven't looked through the "How it was done" articles at the British V-8 site you should I think there is a few MG As that have been written about.

Joe

Gentlemen:
I see the comments on the Ford and Chevy small block. The weight of these engines before water pump, alternator, carburetor and air-filter is just between 470 and 500#. It is true that aluminum heads are available.

Just think a moment. A friend of mine did the Buick/Rover 215 (3.5L) engine when there were Triumph TR8s. Sometime later the factory put this same engine in the MGC cars.

I believe the Malibu 3.5 – 3.9 V6 600 is the engine. There is more room in the engine bay and this is certainly enough engine if you are not interested in melting your tires.

[www.241computers.com]

Ford 5.0 V8 450 (109)
Ford 5.0 V8 411 (171) 89 Mustang 5.0 GT (dry)
inc: manifold, carb (?), headers and alternator.
Not inc: starter, smog pump, power steering pump, AC compressor, flywheel

Chevy V6-60 2.8, 3.1, 3.4, 3.5, 3.9 350 (2)

Chevy small block V8 575 (generic for '60s-'70s motors)
Chevy small block V8 535 (1) ('59 Corvette 283 w/alum. intake)

Buick/Rover 215 V8 318 (and Olds)

Thank you, Skip Heller

Dan, you've probably already looked at the MGAs featured in the newsletter. I'm also building one and have spent some time considering drive line. Because of the design of the MGA frame, in particular the "goal post" area the least intrusive engine in that chassis would be the 60 degree V6. The most popular one is the 2.8-3.4 liter GM engine, although the Ford units will work also. (A nice SHO engine in one of the Healeys shown on the site for example) The next choice would be the 90 degree GM Buick V6 or the Rover / Buick V8. The wider 90 degree V engines do require major work to the front legs of the goal post though.
Pluses for either the Buick/Rover V8 or the GM 60 degree is the availability of headers that will fit pretty well from the MGB swaps.
Of all the cars featured in the newsletter I've only seen John Mangles MGA in person and it's a beautifully executed swap. You couldn't go wrong with the set up he used for a powerful touring car, the Rover V8 with 5 speed.

V6 Midget Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Pluses for either the Buick/Rover V8 or the GM 60
> degree is the availability of headers that will
> fit pretty well from the MGB swaps.

Actually, the headers from an MGB swap will pretty much not fit an MGA at all. The frame rails are in completely different locations and you may as well start fresh rather than butchering an MGB swap header.

The 60 deg engines are far better for an MGA - you REALLY want to retain the goalpost structure, as half the time you need to removet the transverse member under the trans and anything else will weaken the end result.

If your goal is horsepower, dollar for dollar you can't beat a small block Chevy. Compare the cost of parts at Summit or Jegs or eBay and you will see that you can't make power for less money.

I recently modified a '61 MGA. The engine I selected was a 4.3 Chevy Vortec V-6. We didn't have to modify the firewall for the engine as I suspect we would have had we choosen a Chevy 350. With performance parts the engine should be turning out more than 300HP. A narrower engine (like the 302) may have been easier to install. The baby LT is a tight fit.

Dan,

I'll add my two cents--0.8 cent adjusted for inflation--to play devil's advocate.

I come to this American-lump-in-British-coachwork obsession from that combo's great early embodiments, like Shelby's Cobra. I understand those who, when hacking up a classic anyway, angle for the most performance they can get, which usually means new tech wherever money and space allow.

But my fascination still lies with the classic swap. Thus, everything I could put in my Olds-V8 TR6 that I could make "period" is period--stuff a guy like Shelby would have had access to when my '72 TR6 was a daily road car. When the hood is open I want it to look like a factory swap done by, say, Triumph's version of DeLorean's boys at Pontiac. The interior and exterior of my car will look bone stock.

I'd say put a 198 cubic-inch Buick V6 in there. They're contemporaneous with the last of the MGAs, it should fit as well as anything you'll consider, it will make plenty of power for that little car, and it'll look SWEET. The research I've done on them suggests their sound was good and that they are very reliable. Plus, the "old" angle allows you to spend a lot of time prowling around junkyards--and if there's a better car-related activity than that, I've never found it.

Swap your motor, but keep it all classic, I say... unless you want a race car; then go nuts, 'cause the rest of the crew here are some fast company. :^)

Kris Palmer

Trust me, you don't want to use a Buick odd-fire V6.

Later Buick V6s were even fire. I'd go for a late 231ci. 231ci is one gallon - I think it'd be kinda neat to have a "one gallon" engine!

As Curtis notes, there are preliminary considerations. It sounds to me like you're still at the conception stage, and that's where my suggestion was coming from.

Before deciding what to swap, it's important to be sure of what you want from the swap. There are fast, dependable cars out there--a turbo 944 or a late model Camaro. You bought a 50-year-old MG. Ask yourself why you did that. Is it because you wanted a classic--an old car that looks and drives and sounds unlike a Mustang 5.0 or a Subaru? Or did you buy it mainly for its body lines? If the latter, then it's time to consider weights and measurements.

But if the MGA's age and its classic feel were important to you, you might become dissatisfied building up a car that has lost much of that character. Neither approach is "right," of course, but they're different. Guys who build crate-motor hot rods with digital gauges and 8-way heated seats do not share the rat-rodders' vision. These groups don't appreciate the same things and either camp would be unhappy with the other's ride.

Think about which cars you drift to at the auto shows. Do you like the classic look and feel, or do you go more for modern power and performance? You can take either path with your MGA.

My suggestion was motivated in part by these words from your original post: "My goal is to keep the car as original in appearance as possible...."

The concept I proposed would be a vintage swap--a test mule the engineers might quietly have built after hours at Abingdon in 1962. The 198 V6 came to mind because of its link to the 215 V8, which along with its Rover descendants, is in many of the cars on this website (and was employed by almost all of the British manufacturers themselves after the design's sale to Rover in the mid-'60s). While Buick refined the V6 over its long life, this original 198 c.i. version did power the Buick Special named Motor Trend's Car of the Year for 1962. The engine also drew praise from Road & Track's editors for providing nearly the same power and satisfying sound as the 215 V8. (See, e.g., [www.sixties60s.com] )

I have read that Buick refined it to reduce vibration in later years, and I have heard people say that it is hard to get parts for--though I'm sure the resourceful internet surfer can get everything he needs. The rest of your stated goal was "a lot more power and reliability." Though I know an engine builder who has built these up for performance cars, I have no firsthand experience with this motor, and the latter part of your goal may rule it out.

Other members here can no doubt give you more guidance on this question. There's a ton of amazing late-model power trains among the swaps if that's where you're headed... A book that provided me with much inspiration and guidance is Engine Swapping Tips and Techniques, excerpted from Hot Rod Magazine and published by Motorbooks. Though it's out of print, you might be able to find it used. It has much useful information on underlying considerations.

Kris

The 198 was an interesting engine. It showed up in a large number of Jeeps back in the day, and the dead giveaway is the V8 distributor cap with two towers missing. It was originally felt that an even fire 90* V6 would break cranks because of the rod offset needed to get the even firing order but that was later dis-proven and it didn't take long before the common recommendation was to use the even fire engine. That doesn't make the 198 a bad engine. (and it might even be possible to bore it enough to make it a "one gallon" engine and use the 231 pistons, but that's just a guess since I haven't looked at the stroke) To be sure you would have a unique swap, with a unique sound. The proper distributor cap might be really rare though.

Jim

How about this:
Buy a decent Miata for a couple thousand dollars, pull the motor and tranny, plop it in the MGA and viola! Great performance, fuel mileage and reliability while retaining the look and feel of the original car.

Also...
...the distributor cap for the odd fire engine is not rare - you can retrofit an HEI from a mid to late '70's odd fire motor and your friendly GM dealer has the cap in stock. There is nothing "wrong" with these engines, they are just oddballs. You must know how to tune them properly, else they will never run right and will be a constant source of anguish for you. I wrote an article for the newletter on proper tuning of odd-fire and semi-odd fire engines, but I haven't looked to see if it's been published/posted.

I know all this because I am the proud(?) owner of a 229 Chevy semi-odd fire engine in my '65 B. Based on my experience, and my extensive research on the subject of tuning and modifying these little monsters, I would recommend avoiding them like the plague! They are heavy, inefficient, and don't make enough horsepower to justify the effort and expense of building them.

Later, even-fire engines like the 4.3 Chevy or the 3.8 Buicks are much more sensible choices if you must have an iron V-6.
If I hadn't invested ten years of my life into finally getting that damm 229 to run right, I would dumpster it tomorrow without a second thought! : )

So, great! Now we know the contact person for odd fire tuning problems! Good of you to volunteer, Will.

Jim

Nice follow-up, guys. I'm a head-in-the-clouds period-resto-mod kook and that's a factor in my posts. The part I had to walk through five junkyards to find and pulled myself lying in a pile of broken glass is dearer to me than the one I bought at Pep Boys.

Not everyone feels that way. :^)

I guess I am the crabby realist of the bunch...

I outta get one of those photos next to my name. It's hilarious to read your last post looking at Dr. Evil....