Triumph Sports Cars

engine swaps and other performance upgrades, plus "factory" V8s (Stag and TR8)

Go to Thread: PreviousNext
Go to: Forum ListMessage ListNew TopicLog In
Goto Page: 123Next
Current Page: 1 of 3


motek
George Smathers
Spokane, WA
(116 posts)

Registered:
09/12/2009 02:45PM

Main British Car:
1967 Morris Minor (48 hp @ crank!), 1971 TR6 302

Why so few TR4 V8s?
Posted by: motek
Date: October 08, 2009 12:49AM

This is a great site and I've learned a ton. My question is why are there so many fewer TR-4 V8 projects than TR-6s?

Is it just because more TR-6s were sold? Are TR-4 bodies more expensive? Or are the conversions harder to do?


Thanks,


George


TRip
Trip Anthony

(162 posts)

Registered:
08/18/2009 01:16AM

Main British Car:
1980 TR7 performance 4 cyl

Re: Why so few TR4 V8s?
Posted by: TRip
Date: October 08, 2009 03:26PM

I think it's because there are fewer TR4s left and the ones that are remaining are being restored to OEM stock.

Yes also that there were many more TR6s built.

That in turn means that there are fewer aftermarket parts and accessories available.

But hey, if one has the cash, time and interest, anything's possible!

Trip


alana
alan atkinson
10567
(232 posts)

Registered:
06/19/2008 08:06PM

Main British Car:
68 TR250 LS2

authors avatar
Re: Why so few TR4 V8s?
Posted by: alana
Date: October 09, 2009 10:20PM

Check out both the cost of body panels for a TR250 vs a TR6 and the relative values for "decent" cars - that'll answer your question in fairly short order...


motek
George Smathers
Spokane, WA
(116 posts)

Registered:
09/12/2009 02:45PM

Main British Car:
1967 Morris Minor (48 hp @ crank!), 1971 TR6 302

Re: Why so few TR4 V8s?
Posted by: motek
Date: October 10, 2009 01:55PM

It's too bad. I really like the extra curves on the TR-4s.


Bugeyev8
Brian Marshall
San Leandro CA
(32 posts)

Registered:
12/16/2008 08:53PM

Main British Car:
1960 Bugeye, 1974 MGB,Triumph TR8 1.2 115 Hp 1275 in the Bugeye, Nissan Ka24DE in MG

Re: Why so few TR4 V8s?
Posted by: Bugeyev8
Date: February 02, 2010 12:25AM

the engine bay on the TR4 is smaller and requires more cutting, the inner fenders and in the front the cross support between the shock towers can be a challenge, the TR6 was also untill a few years ago a low $$ car, now the TR4s are worth way too much for someone to hack up, you don't even see too many TR6s getting engine swaps these days


alana
alan atkinson
10567
(232 posts)

Registered:
06/19/2008 08:06PM

Main British Car:
68 TR250 LS2

authors avatar
Re: Why so few TR4 V8s?
Posted by: alana
Date: February 02, 2010 06:02AM

The engine bay is the same. Only the outer panels changed between the 4 and the 6 - the tub is the same.
The 6 was a styling exercise, done on a limited budget, to freshen the ageing 4s.
Look at the 250 - 4 body, 6 running gear. It was the stopgap while they finished the 6 design.


BlownMGB-V8
Jim Blackwood
9406 Gunpowder Rd., Florence, KY 41042
(5284 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 12:59PM

Main British Car:
1971 MGB Blown,Injected,Intercooled Buick 340/AA80E/JagIRS

authors avatar
Re: Why so few TR4 V8s?
Posted by: BlownMGB-V8
Date: February 02, 2010 05:39PM

Putting a V8 in either one is a rather daunting task to begin with since any but the most mild mannered engine will require chassis reinforcement and so the cost goes up significantly with power. That's a little easier to justify in the 6 with the smaller initial investment. But with the 4 the higher initial value of the car combined with the cost of the conversion puts most off, especially when they consider that the car may well be worth more in stock condition.

But having said that, if a conversion is done to high enough standards it will usually increase the value of the car somewhat, even if it's not as much as the total cost.

JB



alana
alan atkinson
10567
(232 posts)

Registered:
06/19/2008 08:06PM

Main British Car:
68 TR250 LS2

authors avatar
Re: Why so few TR4 V8s?
Posted by: alana
Date: February 02, 2010 09:17PM

But having said that, if a conversion is done to high enough standards it will usually increase the value of the car somewhat, even if it's not as much as the total cost.

A pretty v8 TR4 vs a pretty stock TR4?

I'd really like to see one that has a v8 in that's worth more - to someone other than the owner that is.


BlownMGB-V8
Jim Blackwood
9406 Gunpowder Rd., Florence, KY 41042
(5284 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 12:59PM

Main British Car:
1971 MGB Blown,Injected,Intercooled Buick 340/AA80E/JagIRS

authors avatar
Re: Why so few TR4 V8s?
Posted by: BlownMGB-V8
Date: February 03, 2010 01:52PM

Well it's a very subjective thing of course, the right buyer and all that. But you have to have the right buyer for the nice TR4 also and the difference would probably be a small one. Like I said, certainly not enough to cover the overall costs. But then restoration rarely does that either so there you go. I don't think they'll ever reach the status of something like an original Cobra, hemi 'cuda or even a Tiger though so it's an incremental difference at best. Obviously though if the job is not done to the proper standards or the selected engine is a poor choice... but then you'd be comparing it to a similarly cobbled TR4 so I guess it actually would be comparable. I don't have a suitable TR4 at my fingertips but one done like Ted Lathrop's TR6 would qualify for sure.

[www.britishv8.org]

Oh, and here's a nice TR4 but there's no mention of frame work.

[www.britishv8.org]

JB


alana
alan atkinson
10567
(232 posts)

Registered:
06/19/2008 08:06PM

Main British Car:
68 TR250 LS2

authors avatar
Re: Why so few TR4 V8s?
Posted by: alana
Date: February 03, 2010 09:16PM

That 6 has over $35k in it. GFL finding a buyer at even 1/2 that.
I know of two stock engined 6s that fetched >18k in the last two weeks, so there's a fair comparison for you.

Increase the value - not a chance.
Come close to covering the costs - no way on earth.

You might be able to shove a $600 4.0 LandRover engine into a B and get close, but with a Rumf not a hope.

Prove me wrong and I'll publicly, and humbly, apologise but until then I call BS.
These conversions are done for the owners pleasure. They are a money losing proposition from every viewpoint.


motek
George Smathers
Spokane, WA
(116 posts)

Registered:
09/12/2009 02:45PM

Main British Car:
1967 Morris Minor (48 hp @ crank!), 1971 TR6 302

Re: Why so few TR4 V8s?
Posted by: motek
Date: February 03, 2010 11:26PM

Alan,

It may actually not be BS. I will just about break even if you use the numbers I've been telling my wife!


BlownMGB-V8
Jim Blackwood
9406 Gunpowder Rd., Florence, KY 41042
(5284 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 12:59PM

Main British Car:
1971 MGB Blown,Injected,Intercooled Buick 340/AA80E/JagIRS

authors avatar
Re: Why so few TR4 V8s?
Posted by: BlownMGB-V8
Date: February 04, 2010 05:10PM

$18K for a TR-6? Wow. I have a couple of buddies who will certainly be glad to hear that! So you think that Ted's TR-6 wouldn't sell for $18K? Obviously you haven't seen the car then. I'm quite certain that if he ever decided to sell it the price would be considerably higher. And I know of at least 2 and probably 3 $100K V8 MGB-GT's that you can't buy. But you could be right about the TR's in general since they never came with much of an engine in the first place. There is something to be said for having a factory produced V8 car after all to at least replicate.

Anyway, there's no point in arguing about it. Seems pretty clear that you and I will just have to disagree, and what George decides to do is his own choice.

JB


alana
alan atkinson
10567
(232 posts)

Registered:
06/19/2008 08:06PM

Main British Car:
68 TR250 LS2

authors avatar
Re: Why so few TR4 V8s?
Posted by: alana
Date: February 04, 2010 10:28PM

Yup, 18k. Two. Both in the last two weeks. Both really nice cars. Neither guy made a profit.

And since you mentioned it, I saw Ted's car at Carlisle in May.
It's a nice car, but not to my taste. If he ever sells it for more than he put into it, including his labor, do please let me know.

As an aside, I'd have let it slide if you'd started by saying costs to do a swap into a 6 (which Lathrop's car clearly is). You can buy a ratty one for MG money, spend $500 buggering it up and then sell the botched conversion on eBay. Oh look, there's one on its second trip through there now...

4s are a different animal. Less common. More desireable. Much more expensive to replace body parts on.

George, I say go for it. Make it look like that black one in the photo articles, or the green one that I saw in Pa a few years back with the Rover engine in there. Both are beautiful cars.

Just do it with your eyes open - you aren't doing the conversion with an eye to make money. Ignore the polishers when they talk about desecration and calamity and tragedy.

My one piece of advice would be that if you don't have one already, spend more up front and buy a good shell - panels are eyewateringly expensive. I know because my 250 conversion started out with this little gem.

http://tr250v8.com/images/frame/glory.jpg

The photos flatter it. Every external panel has or will be been replaced.
And no, it won't fetch even half what I have in it, but I don't care. It is being built for me.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/04/2010 10:30PM by alana.


BlownMGB-V8
Jim Blackwood
9406 Gunpowder Rd., Florence, KY 41042
(5284 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 12:59PM

Main British Car:
1971 MGB Blown,Injected,Intercooled Buick 340/AA80E/JagIRS

authors avatar
Re: Why so few TR4 V8s?
Posted by: BlownMGB-V8
Date: February 05, 2010 11:51AM

Well you see Alan, that's really the point isn't it? You build it for yourself, not to sell it. Except for the cars that are built for a customer, they fit more into the purchased cars category and prices paid for conversion service indicate that yes indeed, the converted car is worth a premium. Anyway, TR4's and TR6's are pretty much the same except for the 4's being scarcer. My brother's had one for decades. Bought it for $300 and it's right much a jewel of a car. No idea what it'd sell for but prices are all over the map and since it isn't an original car in original condition it's doubtful it'd bring anywhere near that $18K figure, but we're willing to be re-educated. Still, this does bring up another point. Even if he could only sell it for half that (and I'd almost bet that'd be a fire sale) he'd get back all the money he's put into it. In current devalued dollars of course. The point being that it isn't decreasing in value any more.

As far as Ted selling his car for his cost, you're putting words into my mouth. I never claimed that. I don't know what it'd sell for, I only think that for $18K it'd be one heck of a bargain, refuting the bald statement that a converted car is less valuable than a restored car. Just ain't so. How about Calvin's car? You think it'd be worth less than a original car in like condition?

JB



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/05/2010 11:53AM by BlownMGB-V8.


alana
alan atkinson
10567
(232 posts)

Registered:
06/19/2008 08:06PM

Main British Car:
68 TR250 LS2

authors avatar
Re: Why so few TR4 V8s?
Posted by: alana
Date: February 05, 2010 01:53PM

Except for the cars that are built for a customer, they fit more into the purchased cars category and prices paid for conversion service indicate that yes indeed, the converted car is worth a premium

To the guy paying for the work. Not at resale time.
Find a TR4 that fetched more and I'll agree with you. Until then you are just guessing, and I don't agree with your guesses. I've yet to see a converted 4 on the open market. I've seen a ton of nice 4s go from 20 - 40k. Find ONE converted one that went on the open market in that price range. Just one, that's all I'm asking for. Don't try to muddy the waters with a 6, stick to the original premise - the TR4.

Anyway, TR4's and TR6's are pretty much the same except for the 4's being scarcer.

And worth rather more than 6's in the general scheme of things. Or do you also disagree with that statement?
You know one is a 4 cylinder and the other a 6, and a 4 (as opposed to a 4A) has a beam axle and a different frame, right?
So different engine different frame different body and different name, but pretty much the same.
That's like me saying a Midget and a B are pretty much the same.
Actually I guess they are - they both say MG AND they are both 4 bangers...

I only think that for $18K it'd be one heck of a bargain, refuting the bald statement that a converted car is less valuable than a restored car

Then I won't mention the one that went for $32k last summer to a guy in NJ. I was talking about that sold stuff recently. Obviously I have no idea what the prices of TRs are, and I didn't speak to the buyer (who is still happy with the deal) the day before yesterday. He didn't pay another 3k to ship it down from Canada either. It is a nice car mind you, not like the usual eBay fare.

How about Calvin's car? You think it'd be worth less than a original car in like condition?

In pieces as is, or finished?

In pieces, as is it's worth more. The running LS1/T56 combo adds to the parts value vs an unrestored LBC engine. You can get $2500 for the pair. An unrestored TR6 engine and box (unless it's an overdrive) is only worth about $1000 (on a good day).

Finished, I say a properly restored stock car will appeal to a wider audience, and as such will edge it out on price.
But I'm fairly sure Calvin doesn't care. He's building what he wants.


Anyway, I'm done with this. You have a widely different opinion to mine, and that's fine. When you find the modded TR4 that validates your argument, I'll change my mind and agree with you. Until then we're going to have to agree to disagree.



Dan B
Dan Blackwood
South Charleston, WV
(890 posts)

Registered:
11/06/2007 01:55PM

Main British Car:
1966 TR4A, 1980 TR7 Multiport EFI MegaSquirt on the TR4A. Lexus V8 pl

authors avatar
Re: Why so few TR4 V8s?
Posted by: Dan B
Date: February 05, 2010 04:16PM

So I guess what you guys are saying is that I need to call Hagerty and upgrade my agreed value policy.......


Dan B


alana
alan atkinson
10567
(232 posts)

Registered:
06/19/2008 08:06PM

Main British Car:
68 TR250 LS2

authors avatar
Re: Why so few TR4 V8s?
Posted by: alana
Date: February 05, 2010 09:01PM

Well I doubt it'll appraise for quite what the one that went at Barrett-Jackson in 2006 went for (97k for those who missed it) but if you've had it a while and not changed the value, it's likely worth more than you think.


BlownMGB-V8
Jim Blackwood
9406 Gunpowder Rd., Florence, KY 41042
(5284 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 12:59PM

Main British Car:
1971 MGB Blown,Injected,Intercooled Buick 340/AA80E/JagIRS

authors avatar
Re: Why so few TR4 V8s?
Posted by: BlownMGB-V8
Date: February 06, 2010 12:22AM

Yeah, I agree, I'm done with it too. Apparently whatever converted 4's are out there the owners aren't selling them. Gee I wonder why? Yes, yes, I know about the frames, motors, axles and such and stand by my original statement. Alan, if I might ask, and no offense intended, for such a purist, what are you doing here? No wait I take that back, I see you're converting a TR250, an even rarer car than the TR4A-IRS. How do you reconcile that with your position? Wouldn't you be money ahead to restore it? What are the details?

George, I apologize we took this so far off point. But if any of this helped it was probably to point out that you should do with your car what makes you happiest.

JB


alana
alan atkinson
10567
(232 posts)

Registered:
06/19/2008 08:06PM

Main British Car:
68 TR250 LS2

authors avatar
Re: Why so few TR4 V8s?
Posted by: alana
Date: February 06, 2010 11:22AM

That's about what I expected.
Can't refute the position, so attack the person instead.

I'm still waiting for one of those expensive modified TR4s that validate your position.
Find one yet?

While you are looking, try to find out what this went across Craigslist for last year. I'll find you a nice TR6 to contrast it with and we'll see which is worth more.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/06/2010 11:26AM by alana.


BlownMGB-V8
Jim Blackwood
9406 Gunpowder Rd., Florence, KY 41042
(5284 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 12:59PM

Main British Car:
1971 MGB Blown,Injected,Intercooled Buick 340/AA80E/JagIRS

authors avatar
Re: Why so few TR4 V8s?
Posted by: BlownMGB-V8
Date: February 06, 2010 01:28PM

Now Alan, I wasn't attacking you. My curiosity just got the better of me. So what ARE the details of your conversion? What engine are you using?

Maybe you could tell us what that car sold for since you picked that one. Personally I'd never buy that car. It is too specialized. So you'll have to find a track car to compare it to, since there's no trunk, no bumpers and the appearance has been fundamentally altered as well as having that goofy logo on the glove box door. Not that I'm saying Bruce is goofy mind you (sorry Bruce) but just that lots of potential buyers are going to pass just because of things like that. It really isn't a valid basis for comparison if you go out and find the most extensively modified car available. Oh, and your track car will have to have an automatic transmission. I doubt that one is going to bring anywhere near a premium.

I'd suggest another car for comparison, like maybe Ken Hiebert's TR [www.britishv8.org] but you'd not pry that one away from him with dynamite. That points up another problem with this approach. The guys who've built really good cars are not about to give them up, so it makes it really hard to establish a free market value for them. You can base your pricing on problem cars, those show up all the time. But that isn't going to come close to giving you the real value of a properly done car. It's a sad fact that a conversion car with a fundamental problem is indeed going to bring a low price because most people rightfully think that if the owner couldn't fix it how could they? This is not a problem with a restored car no matter what condition, because, "parts is parts". So even if you find a well restored car with a fundamental problem it still won't be a valid comparison with a conversion car which has a fundamental problem. And guys like Ken and Ted and Les and even Dale (included because his turbo car is a bit radical for the average buyer) aren't about to let their cars go up for sale. Those cars are as hard to find as that elusive TR4 you're looking for.

JB
Goto Page: 123Next
Current Page: 1 of 3


Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.