Triumph Sports Cars

I have no idea what it sold for - it was on CL in the 12k range. I doubt we'd disagree that he had to have way more than that in there. That's in the same price range as an average TR6, especially during summer.

Since you asked, mine is a crate LS2 with a T56 behind it.
Headers and a tune are the only mods planned.
The front mount ancilliaries have been mounted on a Vintage Air FrontRunner setup, because that pulls everything in so that it all fits in the stock engine bay.

The suspension parts that aren't custom come from a C5 vette and it's been built to fit under a stock-looking shell.
You can see a few pictures here for what they are worth. The cut in the inner fender came with the car and it's getting replaced for one that is whole.

I can't find a 6 racecar right now. This one already sold and I don't know how much it went for, but here's a nice TR4 for 30k, and another for 28.5.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 02/06/2010 03:45PM by alana.

Beautiful chassis work Alan, I see you are quite talented. Interesting to see TR4 racers going close to 30K, maybe Dan will need to re-evaluate his insurance policy after all.

So if I might ask, after it's completed would you sell your TR250? And if you would, what would you ask?

And finally, if a TR modified for racing can command such a price, what reason is there to think that one modified for performance road use would not? I don't think it's a supportable argument to say that a racer involves less modification than an engine conversion.

btw, I saw a TR4A-IRS in LA priced at $7000 back in 1980 and was quite surprised. These cars continue to amaze me to this day.

JB

Oh don't get the wrong idea - I can only dream of being able to weld like that. The best you can say about my efforts are that at the end the two pieces of metal are stuck together. This is being made by someone else.

It's my midlife crisis car. It's not for sale, and unless a catastrophic life event happens, never will be - the cost to make is way in excess of anything I could hope to get for it on the open market. The parts cost alone is way too high, let alone the cost of time.

I don't agree that modifying a car for track use is the same as modifying for street use.
Strip the interior and add a cage and you can race. You won't get very far, but you can race.

Theres a bit more work involved with a bad engine swap.

That 250 is gonna be a lot of fun for sure!

Dan B

>It's my midlife crisis car. It's not for sale, and unless a catastrophic life event happens, never will be - the >cost to make is way in excess of anything I could hope to get for it on the open market. The parts cost >alone is way too high, let alone the cost of time.

Here's the way I have it figured. Cars like Ted's, Terry Schulte's, Dan Master's, Calvin's, and yours Alan (and maybe even mine) are automotive "works of art". They are one of a kind creations that have no other equivalent. They will be kept until their owners die, and then either passed down through the family or go on auction and we can expect that to be many years in the future. In the 3 decades since I saw that TR4 for $7000, according to your figures the prices have gone up by a factor of 4:1 (stock OEM TR4) and the value of these cars can be expected to continue to increase, partially due to scarcity, partially due to other factors. So to state flatly that you can never expect to recover the build costs is not necessarily accurate because at some point the fair market price will exceed build cost. Let's consider why.

Very few of these cars will be built because very few people will have the financing to commission one of these works, or the talent to build it themselves. That by itself, along with the refusal to sell should tell you that these cars are valuable. The fair market price of any item is what a willing buyer will give a willing seller in a free exchange, absent any sort of coercion. Now the simple fact that a knowledgeable, savvy buyer such as, for instance Terry Schulte (and not a TR here but a rough equivalent) will commission a car such as his GT at a cost of,"Well over $100K" is proof enough of the value of that car in a free exchange. If the identical car had been available on the market for half that amount he would have simply bought it. (I sincerely do not believe that Dan M would sell his nearly identical GT for any less) So you can't say it isn't worth or won't sell for the price paid, because it already has. You car may be a similar example, as you are commissioning at least part of the work. The man hours invested by you would be a more subjective matter, but let's say you hired a company such as Fast Cars to do the build. If you were willing to pay the cost as some have, rather than buy an equivalent car on the open market, then like it or not you've just set the free market price of that one particular car and any others that are equivalent. Now, Fast Cars is by now a recognized producer of these art works. Don't you think one of their products is going to command a premium? So what makes you think that Ted's own personal car is not going to fetch a price over $35K? I say it will, and in today's market, not at some future date. The value of these cars will continue to grow, as long as they are properly maintained, as examples of the best of the breed and works of the finest art and craftsmanship that the era had to offer. We do see such examples from time to time come up on the market and typically are astonished by the price they command. The Berlin GT comes to mind.

But what bearing does this have on the average car? Well it sets the upper end of the scale. A few years back when the most expensive MGB or TR4 sold for under ten grand, it was foolhardy to think you could build one that would command a price of double that, and a conversion of average quality would indeed most likely bring less than the original car. But times have changed. The upper end of the scale has been raised to an almost unbelievable degree, but another dynamic has been playing into the scenario at the same time. This started before the Cobra, probably got it's first real boost in the Tiger/Alpine conversions, and has been greatly promoted by the MGB conversions of the last couple of decades. Let's start by acknowledging that the Cobra has vastly exceeded in value, the cost of any build, including repro's. Also the Apine conversions, while not as valuable as an original Tiger are certainly more valuable than the car they sprung from. Now it is well and truly recognized that an MGB conversion, well done, is more valuable than the car it was before the conversion, that is to say, the conversion increases the value as long as it is complete, and properly done. Market prices bear this out. Two cars in equivalent condition, the conversion is going to bring a premium because the buyers recognize the increase in value. Normally you would not expect this to be the case but for this particular car it worked because the factory produced a conversion car. That's right, the original factory MGB-GT V8 was a conversion. Sure, it was done at the factory and subtle changes were made so the engine was a drop-in and there was never any engine removed first other than in the prototypes, but nonetheless, it was a 4 cylinder car converted to American V8 power. In short, this one car more than any other legitimatized engine conversions for British sports cars, and it dragged all the rest of them along in it's wake. It caught on immediately in America and though the sport (and in some cases the Art) grew slowly it continued to gain momentum through the following decades until it reached the point where we are today, with hundreds and even perhaps thousands of converted MGB's and other British sports cars throughout the world. It is now a well recognized archetype, and as such has a well recieved place in the market. Your car Alan, and Calvin's, and even Dan B's car (stock except for a custom EFI system) are now able to begin taking advantage of that recognition and as time passes will gain even more by it.

It's true that the value of original cars will likewise increase, and which will increase faster is a question none of us can really answer. I'll put my money on the top end conversion cars but I have no argument with you backing the originals. One thing for sure, they aren't getting any cheaper.

JB

Another school of thought on this is somewhat contrary to that, and was suggested to me by a Corvette collector. As you look at Barrett-Jackson and some of those high end auctions, the late 60's, early 70's muscle cars are commanding a big price now. Basically the same era as the British sportscars we are talking about. The reason for the high amount is that those are the cars we always wanted growing up and now some people our age have been successful enough to now be able to afford to buy one. As the generation ages, will the cars retain that value? Look at the cars from previous eras. Has their value continued to climb, or has it leveled off, or even dropped? I do know that a Model A is worth much more as a hot rod than a stock from the factory A. That you can verify in Hemmings.

>Very few of these cars will be built because very few people will have the financing to commission one of these works, or the talent to build it themselves. That by itself, along with the refusal to sell should tell you that these cars are valuable

See Jim, that's where we differ in opinion.
I agree that to build one right costs a ton of cash, or time, or both.

The part I don't agree with is that the cars have inherent value by virtue of the additional work or cost to anyone other than the builder.

Now don't misunderstand, I think they ~should~, but I don't happen to think that they ~do~.
Especially when compared to a good stock example.

Here's a couple of other examples to ponder:

There's a couple of MGAs on here with Japanese mills in them.
Do you think they are worth more than a pretty stock one?

What about if we were talking about a DB5 with a BBC in it?
More or less than a concours car?

We may not be all that far apart Alan. I agree with you on the cars you mentioned. The Tiger/Alpine and the MGB are special cases of course, the first because almost all of the conversions use a "proper" (or similar to factory) engine, and the second because once there was general acceptance of the BOPR swap (almost immediate due to the pioneering work of Ken Costello and others but not particularly widespread as it took time to spread across the pond) it wasn't a very big step to accept the SBF and the chevy V6 swaps. Thankfully some of the early ones were quite well done and there were a few open minded enthusiasts who welcomed them. From there, almost any engine in an MGB became accepted, although the market for oddball swaps is still very small. I think the MGA/Toyota swap and several others such as any rotary fit in this category, as well as just about any alternate engine in an ultra-expensive and scarce car, especially if it had reasonably good power to start with. The DB5 very likely fits in this latter category, but I would contend that the TR4 does not. It simply isn't valuable or scarce enough, and based on it's value and place in the market over all the years since it's been built, and comparison of the market performance of similarly situated cars it probably never will be. Sort of like a '51 Chevy, a good enough car but you never hear of it these days. It might have a little better chance of achieving that status than the MGB, but like Dan said, the ranks of the enthusiasts will ultimately thin out, and going on 45 years since it's manufacture that dynamic will be taking place all too soon.

Anyway this acceptance of the conversion MGB has spilled over into other makes such as Triumph and what would never have been accepted before now has a market, though depending on the car it may be a limited one, and the value depends significantly on the engine choice. What Calvin, Ken Hiebert, you, and others have and are doing with the LS series is very comparable to what was done decades ago by those of us who swapped the BOPR into the MGB. At that time it wasn't widely accepted here in the US and the market was small. I even had a guy at a car show comment that he expected my car was a "bomb". He didn't clarify what he meant upon discovering that he was talking to the owner but I took it to mean he expected it to blow up at any moment. A very unfair comment and one you'd never hear today, but it shows how far we've come.

So I predict that your car will achieve complete acceptance much sooner than you think it will. The way has been nicely paved and prepared for you, and you have the advantage of an engine that looks very attractive in that engine compartment and is also technologically greatly advanced over the other common choices and the original engine. It doesn't hurt a thing that it is also one of the most popular engines on the planet today. The quality of the workmanship and the obviously thoughtful design of a quality chassis can only help. Converted TR's are steadily increasing in number, and as they do more sports car enthusiasts will see them, ride in them, drive them, and become believers. Those are the people who create the market, and as they do the value will climb, and at some point rapidly. I may be a little ahead of the curve in my attitude, but I doubt I'm wrong since I've seen it happen before. As demand increases for any scarce commodity the price goes up. Simple economics. My advice once it's built, take it to car shows and give rides.

There will be those purists who will never pay as much for a conversion car. They will also never own one, at least not a good example of one. Meanwhile. the market for quality conversions will continue to grow.

JB

Well obviously I hope you are right, but I still disagree about the value of stock vs converted when it comes to the 4.

Only the 5 (and perhaps on a good day a nice 250) is worth more - I don't count TR-2s as you never see them on the road, and a good 4 is close in price to a good 3 now, but with better appreciation potential.

A nice 6 conversion may well be worth the same as a stock 6, but we started this whole thing with the 4.

I just did a quick Google.

This popped up - [www.carandclassic.com] and here - [www.europeanvintagecarcompany.com]
It's at about 27k if the conversion rate is 1.6:1.
Still under the 30s a good 4 is going for - and this is an acceptable conversion, from a dealer.
Not my thing, but I've seen far worse. I'm actually surprised it's on for that much.

That's pretty good news, it shows the gap is close. Apparently a well done conversion but a few things that hurt that car are the auto, the hood scoop and the side pipes, none of which really compliment the car and all of which reduce it's potential market. (Isn't it funny how an auto enhances a regular car's value but decreases that of a sports car?) And since none of the three except possibly the side pipes is an easy fix, it can be considered a car with fundamental problems. Still a very nice conversion though. Find one without those problems and I bet the selling price goes up.

Earlier I neglected to mention the TR7/8 and how that plays into the TR market. It's very helpful to the make that they have their very own entry into this V8 field along with a near identical model ripe for conversion. Although in much smaller numbers and a later entry, the TR7/8 has more or less tracked the progress of the MGB-V8 conversions. The swapping of a Rover V8 into a TR7 was initially looked upon as some sort of a counterfeit, but they quickly gained legitimacy as it was recognized what a good car resulted from the swap and the number of conversions has been slowly but steadily growing. This situation is more in keeping with the early Alpine/Tiger scenario though, partly because MG only built GT-V8's and any Roadster V8 was instantly identified as a conversion, and partly because the MG factory came late to the party and jumped in after the MGB-V8 was already gaining acceptance.

The TR7 conversion, like the Alpine, is not going to ever reach the value of the TR8 if the two cars are comparable, simply because of the scarcity of true TR8's, especially the FHC. But they may well come close (unlike the Alpine/Tiger) simply because they share an identical bodyshell. (Again, analogous to the late MGB) and as TR7 conversions gain acceptance, it will as described above drag the other TR conversions along in it's wake. Now obviously the 7 is nowhere near as valuable a car as the 4 or even the 6, let alone the 5 or 250. But it's also a later car so that may begin to change some. It never had the initial market appeal the other cars did though so only time will tell. It's a solid enough car and a fair addition to the product line and it benefits greatly from some simple upgrades (leading even more easily towards conversion). Conversely, the earlier TR's are easily divided into the original and conversion camps and each will stand or fall on it's merits. That being the case the market value of each will only track the other in terms of the common elements, that basically being the car body and fitments. While the original will appreciate based on scarcity the conversion will appreciate based on desirability of the driveline and the appearance and feel of the overall package. So their market has diverged and will progress at different rates, and the question of whether or when the conversion may overtake the original is a difficult one at best. Still, based on the roaring progress of LBC conversions in the last decade and more particularly in the last 5 years I'll have to stand by my original thesis that the conversion will match or exceed the original.

Now if it does exceed it I think it will not be by enough to pay the cost of conversion. It might equal the cost to buy the original and rebuild the engine, but probably not a whole lot more than that, despite the custom frames and specialized conversion parts. The reason is because the cost of similar parts is similar. Engines, mounts, headers, transmissions, etc and you have to have them which ever type they are. But I could be wrong about that too, it has happened elsewhere.

JB

I've been looking for a TR + V8 for a couple of years.
Not looking that hard, but looking.
If I bought one, I'd have to sell my well-sorted injection car which as I hope you can see is quite nice, so I'm being a bit particular about what I might buy.



Now I was going to post some more pics in here, but Bucket isn't working properly, perhaps the mid-Atlantic coast power outages, so bear with me if they aren't there....

First, here's the 6 that Alan mentioned going through eBay the second time.



It was actually the sixth time. Six times, with three owners. It runs, it drives. It sold last week for less than $8k. Yes, $8,000.
It has a 327 + Muncie, and a Corvette pumpkin. OK the pumpkin is out of an auto Vette so the ratio is hopeless, but still...
I didn't buy it. Now I don't want to spoil the new owner's pleasure if he's on here, but the first eBay seller described it to me as looking as if it had been thrown together by some college students for a summer holiday. That didn't put me off, but I could see from extra pics I had that the engine was set very low and there were clearance issues with the sump/pan, and the chassis has been pretty much cut about to accommodate the box & pumpkin. And there were other issues. As Alan said in another place, it would cost more to fix it than it cost to buy.
That car is a 69. That's the first production year. The bodyshell looks perfect, no rust. That would fetch far more than $8k, as a stocker. By the time you'd fixed the conversion, you'd be financially sunk.

Then there was this one, sold around $8k. I know where it is, I could probably buy it for around that amount, unless the new owner has started his 'project' on it.



It is/was a 250. It has an SBC, I think it was, plus a TH350. The bodywork has been nicely executed, leaving aside the aesthetics. Someone put a mint of time into that car. I didn't buy it because essentially it's been made into a Town car, and I want a convertible. Whoever built it is waaaay out of pocket in time & money there.

Then there's this. It's a 65 TR4A, It has a 350 SBC crate motor + 700R4, I would have liked that car even though it also has a Dakota digital dash that I would have ripped out. It sold for $8,000. I didn't buy it because of timing and domestic issues. Coulda shoulda, really.



Mind you, it still has/had the stock rear end, that means driveshafts and hubs that need uprating, plus the stock pumpkin (we call it the diff) which won't last long unless the driver is a Promenade Percy. Someone is already down a pile of time and money on that car, and it still needs money spending on it. Whereas a stock TR4A with Surrey top ? $20k ?? easily....

And finally, fttb, this:



Yes, it's the one that's now in Arizona at $27k. Very nicely done. No bodges that I could see. It has a 302 + C6 and a solid rear end, as the advert says.



Yet again, I didn't buy it.... flared arches yuk, colour I don't like and that's $6,000 to fix properly over here in the UK, and there were other things such as what happens to that nice engine bay with that hood/filter arrangement when you take it out in the rain. We have rain over here, and we drive in it. As I say, I'm a bit particular. Even though there are so few cars to choose from.
That was on eBay last year, it went for about $14,000 as I recall, so that dealer selling for $27k will do well for doing nothing, but I bet that car has well over $30k of work in it, so....... yet again...... someone is waaaaay down the tubes with it.

Yes, these cars are built for love, not for money. I'll buy one, one day, it'll be a timepit, moneypit, but that's not the point, is it ?

Ivor

Ivor, if I'd seen the blue one, I'd have bought it!

November 08, it was.
There was some odd looking welding on the chassis around the front, the respray didn't extend to the engine bay, some other minor stuff, but at that price who's complaining....
Must admit, if I saw it again I think I'd jump in.
Coulda shoulda.

Ivor

>Dan B:
>The reason for the high amount is that those are the cars we always wanted growing up and now some people our age have been successful enough to now be able to afford to buy one.


I agree. I grew up in Vancouver BC and I can remember walking to Junior High and drooling over all the TR6's I'd see. I never planned to get one but I guess it was in the back of my mind.


George

I really felt like the numbers we were throwing around represented the very top of the curve and in that respect aren't the most realistic for the average guy. What we are likely to see are more in line with something like the blue car above I think, and it sounds like a bargain. Most of us don't have either the time or the money to sink into one of those very top cars whether it's a conversion or a restoration.

Jim

Well, I'm man enough to admit when I'm wrong (I hope).
This little gem is going to go for way less than it cost to build, but still more than an equivalent stocker.
It's a 6, but even so...

NFI and all that, but it's a nice car.

[cgi.ebay.com]

[schradersspeedandstyle.com]

Here is a stock tr4 for a fairly good price I believe.[bringatrailer.com]

That one that Alan just pulled up has some good ideas in there, like polished trailing arms, why not, just a little more attention to detail.

Anybody know how low in the frame you have to set a Small Bock Chevy to keep the stock hood intact on a TR4?

I have about, 24" from the top of frame rail to the bottom of the hood on my 67-TR4A. My lower profile K&N filter kisses the bottom of the hood. It's rubbery so it does not cause a problem.

You need to make sure your Air Filter or Intake Plenum is a lower one. Or fab an intake system. And then mount the engine accordingly.

Lot's of nice examples on this site!

Just ran across a crashed TR4A race car on the Bellingham Wash. Craigs list.
It's probably not a restorable car but it comes with a ton of parts and it's only $1000.00.

Cheers
Fred

[bellingham.craigslist.org]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/18/2017 12:25PM by DiDueColpi.