Triumph Sports Cars

engine swaps and other performance upgrades, plus "factory" V8s (Stag and TR8)

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motek
George Smathers
Spokane, WA
(118 posts)

Registered:
09/12/2009 02:45PM

Main British Car:
1967 Morris Minor (48 hp @ crank!), 1971 TR6 302

Engine mock-ups
Posted by: motek
Date: February 09, 2010 01:39PM

OK here's another question. Do most of you guys use a plastic engine mock-up (dummy engine) to figure out fit and engine mount locations?

They sell new for about $300 but I can't seem to find one used. E-bay only has new ones. They seem like a tool that would be sold repeatedly as used - use for a few weeks and then sell to the next guy. Am I missing something?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/09/2010 01:42PM by motek.


rficalora
Rob Ficalora
Willis, TX
(2629 posts)

Registered:
10/24/2007 02:46PM

Main British Car:
'76 MGB w/CB front, Sebring rear, early metal dash Ford 302

authors avatar
Re: Engine mock-ups
Posted by: rficalora
Date: February 09, 2010 02:27PM

If you watch ebay, they pop up periodically... but they go for about $300 new & about $250-270 used... I didn't get one, but after messing with putting the engine in & pulling it back out about the 100th time, I sure wish I would have. $50 ($300-250) would have been money well spent -- both in time savings & ease of work. Now, if you're going with an engine swap that has a kit like BOPR or 60*V6 it may not be worth it, but if you're doing anything where you're fabbing your motor mounts & other mods in the engine bay it'd really come in handy. Like you said, you can always sell it when you're done.


74ls1tr6
Calvin Grannis
Elk Grove,CA
(1150 posts)

Registered:
11/10/2007 10:05AM

Main British Car:
74 TR6 / 71 MGB GT TR6/Ls1 71 MGB GT/Ls1

authors avatar
Re: Engine mock-ups
Posted by: 74ls1tr6
Date: February 09, 2010 08:30PM

Hi George,

I didn't have a dummy block either. I did like the fact that, the weight of the engine & transmission in the car, got an idea of where the ride height was going to be.There are some suspesion springs that will make your car ride high. Was able to get ride height to my liking . Also from installing so many times, (in&out) (engine/transmission bolted together) you can make your clearances right, and figure out how your going to maintain in the future. In other words, take headers out, change plugs, change fan belt, starter etc. I only unbolted the transmission from the engine one time, to install new flywheel, pressure plate, disk, and thowout bearing.

So "Yes" agree with Rob. It would be nice to have for motor mounts.

I did think about getting one, but after a while, figured I didn't need one.


Bill Young
Bill Young
Kansas City, MO
(1337 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 09:23AM

Main British Car:
'73 MG Midget V6 , '59 MGA I6 2.8 GM, 4.0 Jeep

authors avatar
Re: Engine mock-ups
Posted by: Bill Young
Date: February 10, 2010 09:03AM

Plastic engine mock up blocks would be the thing to use if you don't have your own engine hoist and had to rent one whenever you needed to pull the engine. I could have paid for a dummy block a couple of times if I'd had to rent the hoist everytime I took that V6 in and out of my Midget!


motek
George Smathers
Spokane, WA
(118 posts)

Registered:
09/12/2009 02:45PM

Main British Car:
1967 Morris Minor (48 hp @ crank!), 1971 TR6 302

Re: Engine mock-ups
Posted by: motek
Date: February 11, 2010 11:10PM

Thanks for all the advice. I guess I'll just buy a new one and sell it later.

I have a hoist but I'm spending a lot on a pretty crate engine and I want to minimize the number of times I have to lift it in and out.


motek
George Smathers
Spokane, WA
(118 posts)

Registered:
09/12/2009 02:45PM

Main British Car:
1967 Morris Minor (48 hp @ crank!), 1971 TR6 302

Re: Engine mock-ups
Posted by: motek
Date: February 19, 2010 10:25PM

I figure I should be able to man-handle this:

http://i883.photobucket.com/albums/ac39/motek999/IMG_3211.jpg

All the threads are there but the manufacturer, [www.payr.com], said to be very careful not to put any weight on them or they will rip out.

http://i883.photobucket.com/albums/ac39/motek999/IMG_3209.jpg


I have purchased a real starter index plate and a real Ford Racing T5 transmission.

How much does the flywheel stick out and what angle did you guys tilt the engine/trany?


Thanks,


George



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/19/2010 10:30PM by motek.


74ls1tr6
Calvin Grannis
Elk Grove,CA
(1150 posts)

Registered:
11/10/2007 10:05AM

Main British Car:
74 TR6 / 71 MGB GT TR6/Ls1 71 MGB GT/Ls1

authors avatar
Re: Engine mock-ups
Posted by: 74ls1tr6
Date: February 20, 2010 12:18AM

Here is a good chart.


driveshaftangles.jpg



motek
George Smathers
Spokane, WA
(118 posts)

Registered:
09/12/2009 02:45PM

Main British Car:
1967 Morris Minor (48 hp @ crank!), 1971 TR6 302

Re: Engine mock-ups
Posted by: motek
Date: February 24, 2010 12:49PM

I'm still mocking up but I need a little help. Since the differential height is fixed doesn't this limit how low I can place the engine?

I.e., say the Triumph designers set the pinion angle at 3 degrees. This means I can not raise or lower the transmission mount - I can only move it fore or aft. If the transmission mount height is fixed and I want say a 2 1/2 degree engine angle, then doesn't this predetermine how low I can set the engine?

To make things more complicated, I'm planning a Richard Good differential. He calls for a shortened driveshaft. Does that mean I need to raise my transmission mount to maintain the pinion angle?

By the way, I ordered a 350hp Engine Factory crate motor. It has a rear sump and a shallow oil pan so I think I can stay above and away from the front frame cross member. I'd like to avoid a hood bulge.


George


alana
alan atkinson
10567
(232 posts)

Registered:
06/19/2008 08:06PM

Main British Car:
68 TR250 LS2

authors avatar
Re: Engine mock-ups
Posted by: alana
Date: February 24, 2010 08:33PM

Not if you set it up like the second one.
All you have to do is ensure that the angles are equal and opposite and so parallel .
Relative heights then become irrelevant, it's those pesky angles that are important.

Either that or I need to lay off the sauce, because it certainly seemed fine last night when I was thinking about it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/25/2010 10:45AM by alana.


69 TR6
Dennis Matthews
London, Ont
(5 posts)

Registered:
01/30/2013 10:13AM

Main British Car:
1969 Triumph TR6

Re: Engine mock-ups
Posted by: 69 TR6
Date: February 08, 2013 01:30PM

Does anyone want to share how and what they used to get the engine to all line up? I may be over thinking but this pinion angle stuff does not make much sence to me. I understood that the engine should be level in all directions for it to work best. Also when you mate body and v8 once happy with fit, are you just slidding the body over an installed engine or do you have to put engine in after body is fit with engine hoist.

Thanks

Dennis


BWA


(317 posts)

Registered:
04/13/2010 08:13PM

Main British Car:


Re: Engine mock-ups
Posted by: BWA
Date: February 08, 2013 02:56PM

Dennis the way I did this thing was to remove the tub from the frame. I then put the engine and tranny in the frame where I thought it should be. I used blocks underneath to support the engine. I went to a local tool supply place and got a bubble protractor with a magnetic base and measured the pinion angle of the flange on the differential. I then placed the bubble protactor on the harmonic balancer and shimmed the engine until the dip angle was within 2 degrees of the angle of the flange on the differential. I then lowered the tub on the frame and checked for any conflicts with the firewall and placed the hood on the car to see how much clearance there was. Of course the engine was not in the optimal position the first time so while the tub was on I used a rolling floor jack to shift it around. While the tub was on I checked out any possible conflicts that would arise with mounting the ancillerys, headers, etc. With doing an engine swap you have to think ahead many steps to avoid any conflicts that will arise. These cars are small and you don't have a lot of room to play with so you need to consider the entire package.
In my case I did not have to do any cutting, if you plan on going with a Ford 5.0 litre you will need to do some cutting so your proceedure will be a little different from mine.

Cheers
Byron


tbo
Tim Body
St Thomas Ontario
(214 posts)

Registered:
01/27/2013 06:47PM

Main British Car:
1954 Triumph TR2 stock 2 litre

Re: Engine mock-ups
Posted by: tbo
Date: February 08, 2013 09:26PM

Dennis . If you look at lots of pictures ofFord 302s into TR6s in the how it was done section of the web site, you will see that the motors are lower in the back compared to the front. this shows they are tilted to match up with the pinnion angle of the rear end.For measureing angles like that I bought an digital calculater for table saws at Lee Valley on Oxford St east in lLondon, only 35 bucks and very accurate and also magnetic so the stick real good.I insalled my motor and tranny with the body on the frame, taking it in and out many times to cut and renovate as needed.I did made the rear tranny mount first so the t5 was the right height for the drive shaft to go thru the tunnel to join the rear end.Then I built motor mounts to suit the proper angle of the motor.Your install should be easier since ther is lots of info on motor mounts for 302 on this site. Search it out there is lots of stuff.If you want to see my tranny mount let me know since TR3 and TR6 mount location were almost identical. Call me at 519 476 4343 Tim


rampant racing
gary fraser
sarnia ont,canada
(83 posts)

Registered:
03/28/2009 02:45AM

Main British Car:
69 spitfiremk111 ford 347 stroker

Re: Engine mock-ups
Posted by: rampant racing
Date: February 15, 2013 07:17PM

the plastic block has been a real joy to use on my build.couldn't do without it.i have the real trans bolted onto it and a set of valvecovers and oilpan.headers bolt right up too.
tmpphppgIjd3.jpg
varwwwclientsclient1web2tmpphpnvPh6U.jpg
tmpphpstCaxNspitfire 50% smaller.jpg
tmpphp9iaY5N.jpg



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/15/2013 07:19PM by rampant racing.


rampant racing
gary fraser
sarnia ont,canada
(83 posts)

Registered:
03/28/2009 02:45AM

Main British Car:
69 spitfiremk111 ford 347 stroker

Re: Engine mock-ups
Posted by: rampant racing
Date: April 01, 2013 10:08PM

her is my driveshaft setup i am using in the spit.engine is 3deg down and pinion is 0deg.i am using coilover and a triangulated four link suspension that is easily adjusted if need be.the shaft is 23" long from center - center of u joints.
varwwwclientsclient1web2tmpphpz2DZQDdriveshaft 1.jpg
varwwwclientsclient1web2tmpphpOCO42qdriveshaft 4.jpg
varwwwclientsclient1web2tmpphpY56bKkdriveshaft 3.jpg
varwwwclientsclient1web2tmpphpaEKDwadriveshaft 2.jpg


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