Triumph Sports Cars

After checking junkyard prices, it might make sense for me to simply replace the 231 V6 in this car. For about $350 I can get a decent 3800 with the tranny (auto) and the power and mileage should be a major improvement, although engine/tranny control may be something of an issue. Reasons for the swap? This one is kinda tired, doesn't run well, and only has about 100hp. Mileage isn't too bad but still only maybe 20. It doesn't smoke noticeably but does have that old engine smell.

Aside from the electronics and the different induction it'd be an out and in R&R so nothing fancy there. Car was converted with a John's cars kit.

Other options might be a SBB (really a bit long and would need headers), Toyota/Lexus 1UZ (mounts, exhaust, and driveshaft but supposed to be a really sweet package and I already have the transmission for it), Rover (lighter, tranny won't bolt up), or maybe the 4.1L (252) as used in big Buicks and Caddy (probably lots of miles). There is also the supercharged version of the 3800, but it isn't my goal here to make another hot rod.

I'd like to hear some of your comments on why it would make sense to use one over the rest, and also any suggestions as to which specific engine/donor to look for.

Jim

Quote:

but it isn't my goal here to make another hot rod.

Bummer! I was hoping to see you go really crazy with the TR7.

Buick V6 is the easy and sensible solution, but isn't particularly sexy. The supercharger would fix that quick.

If not that, I'd like to see you go for the Toyota mill, but in the later version that includes variable valve timing and OBD2. We could all learn a ton from that How It Was Done article!

Jim, Perhaps it's time your family had a roller cam motor ? The later Buick V6, maybe the oem blower? I 've "heard' the later V6's had aluminum heads ? Variable cam timing available ? Of course with a Rover V8, you could have a TR 8 clone. Aisian Warner 3040 od. auto, to keep Edith happy ? Good Luck, roverman.

Hey Jim,
What are your goals for the car?
Is it a cross country cruiser, a grocery getter, does handling matter, does fuel mileage trump horse power, what do you want it to sound like?
How about servicing if someone else is driving and it brakes down? What about future upgrades?
These are some of the questions that I ask my customers before we get into a drive train swap.
I bet if you ask Edith she will have some good input as well. It is her car.......isn't it?
Cheers
Fred

The tranny I have is the A650E (Asian Warner) 5 speed, which mates right up to the 1UZ, but I haven't asked the pick and pull about that engine. It rained today so I didn't go. I expect that one would cost a good bit more. It would take a lot longer to install too, but I could do a test fit into the spare MGB while I was at it, which would be a very good thing but not enough justification to go that way.

The car is still driveable, probably good enough to make the BritishV8 meet this year, although a straight replacement or something close would still make that window where a 1UZ swap would not. I tested the HEI module today (bad) and replaced it but I still have an intermittent miss. Timing light shows the mark regularly wandering 5 degrees or more and random scatter to 10-15 degrees or more. The wandering could be a sloppy timing chain but the random scatter (misfire) has me buffaloed. Replaced coil, module, wires, plugs (gapped .050"). Would the inductive pickup do that? The mechanical and vacuum advance are good and it doesn't feel like there is any play in the shaft. (from the top) I really hate just throwing parts at it, especially in light of the cost of replacing the whole engine.

Jim

In my opinion, you have two choices. Easiest would be swap in a new Buick that fits all the John's cars parts. That would give you a grocery getter, reliable, well mannered runabout that Edith could drive if she ever wanted too, and not too overpowered for Matthew to learn on. Also not real expensive.
Second choice, we do two UZ engine conversions. If it's worth doing, it's worth doing twice, right?

Series II 3800, 95' up, might be worth considering. N.A. hp is 205. 26 lbs lighter, due to shorter deck. Only 22 lbs heavier than GM's all alum. V6. Your mileage may vary. Cheers, roverman.

Okay so at the risk of getting kicked out of the pool,
What about a VW TDI?
Once you've all finished laughing..... hear me out.
These engines are relatively light and strong
They run clean and routinely get 60mpg or better.
They rev very happily up to 5500rpm (or more with some mods)
200 hp and 300ftlbs torque are available relatively easily.
Would be an excellent match with the 5 speed auto that you already have.
Not everyone's cup of tea but not such a bad idea.
Cheers
Fred

Lots of info on the VW TDI on MGExperience threads including cad files for adapter and flywheel mods to Toyota trans. Dyno chart of one with 315HP and over 500ftlb Torque.

[www.mgexperience.net]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/23/2012 07:11PM by mgb260.

Well Fred, maybe you could persuade Dan, as he hasn't made a move on the 1UZ yet. As for those goals, well they are and have always been a little muddied. I guess what I've learned from the experience is to get Edith exactly and only what she tells me she wants and not to get creative about it. That always seems to work the best. In this case I really thought I heard her say that she liked the car, as in, would like to have the car. So after I discovered the error of my ways and it was too late to return it, I mistakenly thought I heard her say that she would like it if it was fixed up. So after I learned of my mistake, I could have sworn I heard her say she'd like to sell or trade it. So after I figured out I was wrong, I thought she said it would be OK for me to drive it some. Then after I learned I'd misunderstood, I thought she'd said she would need it when Matthew started driving this summer. Only, it seems I might have gotten that wrong too.

So I'm not real clear on what it is we want the car for. It alternates between being "Her Car" and "the car you bought for yourself", even though I've repeatedly said if it had been for me it'd have been an MG. Maybe I just didn't understand what I was doing. If I ask Edith what to do about the engine I'm pretty sure it'll be just fine the way it is. I probably just don't understand the situation there.

But I may have made a very slight improvement in the irregular firing by changing the module, condenser, module harness and cleaning contacts. The pickup is all that is left I think that isn't new, and when I put the timing light on it the scatter seemed to be gone but the wandering was still there and it still stumbles at idle. I'll get it out tomorrow and see how it runs. But here's another odd thing, I think the inertia ring on the damper has slipped. Tuning it by ear, the sweet spot is at about 45 degrees going by the knob on the timing light (and I compared two of them). Now at 45 degrees of static advance there's no way that engine would even start, let alone run. Unless I misunderstand the situation, I suppose that's possible. But I do know this, If I try to retard it 30 degrees from where it is now it will be VERY unhappy. So I think the ring slipped.

SO... let's tally up what we have here. Damper. Timing set. Carb and intake off a 4.1 (4 bbl, good for 30% hp, better air cleaner, etc.) That's going to be close to $200 at very good prices. Entire junkyard 4.1 is $180. Swapping the engine is about the same work as swapping the timing set and damper.
about double the horsepower, etc. THAT sounds like a decent swap.

Or... a Gen-III 3800 with tranny is $330 if I understood him right. And they are overrun with them. (What year did the Gen-III start? I've forgotten.) All modern stuff, low mileage, EFI and the works. Very good power and economy, plus smooth to drive and with a better tranny. (this one has a shift kit and is a little harsh) Probably could go ahead and take the harness and the ECM would only add a few bucks, or use my spare MegaSquirt. But it'd have to be done after Palestine. I could almost guarantee I could be up and running for under $500 total. But do I really want to put that much into it? I mean, I could be mistaken...

Those other ideas are just ideas. I mean, before I could even consider something like a 1UZ or a VW I'd have to finish my MG, and what if Edith's intention is to use this as trading stock for a new car? Then the smart thing to do is nothing. But that was just an idea that I I think I floated one time and I could have been wrong about that.

Jim

Jim B, Isuzu Trooper V6 bellhousing has small 60 degree GM pattern same as Series I,II or III 3800. That would allow you to use the Aisan Warner 5 speed auto. That is what I'm going to use with the Caddy 4.9.

Now that's an intriguing possibility Jim! A small modification to the tranny mount, swap the end on the driveshaft, and not much more, to get a modern engine and transmission. I think that just might be worth looking into, although it would be a longer term project, cost more, and take significantly more labor for the injection and tranny control. Or, I could wrap this up quick, get my car running, and move on to the MG in the shed. Of course Steve D and I have been looking at possibly going electric on that one, but here's a thought, maybe we should go electric on the TR. Skip all the paint and interior and start with something ready to drive. Maybe let Dan use the V6 stuff.

Too many options.

I've been reading up on the V6 engines. Maybe it will never run smooth and I'm expecting too much. Spoiled by V8s I suspect.

Jim

Perhaps now would be a good time to ask your better-half about battery powered things ? Don't want to second guess again- right ? With gas prices, ever climbing, maybe Hz is better, after all, you've been "enjoying" TR 7 wiring- yes ? Cheers, roverman.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/24/2012 10:49PM by roverman.

what about an LZ4 or 9? over 200 hp out the box and can bolt to a t5 if you decide to go the standard route.
[britishcarconversions.com]

Yah.....right there with you Jim.
Way back I bought the lovely Lynne a new 626. An unfortunate incident (it has guages, why doesn't it have a light? she said) caused the engine to become less than useful. I "heard" her say that she loved the car and that it just needed a little more power for getting onto the fwy. I also "heard" her say that she liked driving my 427 chevelle. So the obvious thing to do was put in a 377chevy, 700R4 and a ford 9". Slammed the suspension, stuck on some wilwood parts (for her safety), 16" steel wheels with the factory mags split and cut down for hubcaps and it was done. Looked stock, went fast, ran nice. All was good until the fall. A part throttle lane change in the rain caused a loss of directional control resulting in a 720' spin (not her exact words). I was told that if I liked my? car, I should go get it as it was in the middle of the fwy running with the door open.
Some cross examination revealed that " I love that car it just needs a little more power" means that she wanted the new 850R that I was using as a demo for Volvo. And "I like the way your chevelle drives" meant that she had a outfit that matched the car colour.
Had I not been listening?
I continued to learn in the interim,
455 Firebird, 511 Grand Cherokee, Northstar Delorean and a 502 Mercedes SL
Now after paying close attention for 28 years I have learned that
#1 momma wants something nice, comfortable and smooth.
#2 momma's car had better stay nice and comfortable and smooth but better be faster that the daughters cars.
#3 the daughters drive like their dad so #2 is always an issue.
#4 and the most important. "If momma ain't happy, ain't nobody happy.
We still have the Delorean and the Mercedes but these are apparently "my" cars.
I love the woman to bits but what she sees in me is open to conjecture.
Apparently I'm handy to have around.
Cheers
Fred

As Red Green say's
''If the women don't find you handsome then they should at least find you handy".

I'm still working on,
I'm a man.....and I can change.....if I have to.....I guess.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/26/2012 04:12AM by DiDueColpi.

Did you or Graham ever figure out the opening chant of the Possum Lodge brotherhood? I realize it's a sort of pseudo-latin but I just haven't quite been able to get it. If you know the words, I do have a Latin-English dictionary and can generate a translation. Red's my hero.

Well, it gets ever more confusing of course. I mentioned a possible upgrade in the course of my struggles to get the car to run right and was promptly informed that the car was to be traded to get something for Matthew to drive. Which I find confusing of course, since I thought I heard her say that Matthew would be driving her Jeep Liberty. What does it all mean? Does Matthew get to pick the car of his choice as a first vehicle? (And what kind of a precedent does that set?) Is "a car for Matthew to drive" some sort of code for "a new car for Edith"? And who IS this Matthew she speaks of anyway? How come I haven't heard of him before? (Just kidding!)

Well, some good news anyway. After swapping out all those HEI parts it looks like I've gotten rid of the intermittent miss. Could have been the condenser. Could have been the module wiring harness. Could have been bad connections. Could have been the evil genius of Lucas infiltrating the new American components. Anyway it's better and will now idle smoothly, that is, if a V6 ever does. But the timing is completely off. I think the damper ring has slipped, and being a smog motor it's timed with switched, ported vacuum which totally screws the idle advance. Right now the vacuum is disconnected and plugged and it runs pretty good, but I'm going to see what I can do with straight manifold vacuum and see if I can get a TDC mark and some usable advance numbers. Got no specs for the engine, Chiltons thinks it's all automatic computer mumbo jumbo and don't give out the specs. So I'm thinking maybe something like 8-14 initial, 36-38 mechanical + initial, and 50 or so initial + mechanical + vacuum. Anyone have better numbers for this engine? I'm sort of flying blind here.

Anyway, it looks like the engine is going to run well enough for the time being so I guess the upgrade is off. But hey, those were some really great suggestions and I'm sure they will be useful to others who are considering a swap. I really appreciate the thought that went into them. But maybe now I can get back to the really important job of getting my own car back on the road. (I mean, assuming I'm right and this one ISN'T my car.) It could still use a few fine touches but the A/C works and I think it is good enough to drive to Palestine should we decide to take it, and I wouldn't have to feel bad about foisting it off on anyone as a trade, should it come to that.

Jim

Jim, when I want to know what my wife means I generally ask my kids. They seem to have it figured out better than me.

I know if it were her, all of the above would boil down to:
1. I just wanted a nice car to drive. I don't want a project.
2. It's taking too long so just sell it so we can buy a car for Matthew (or for her to free up the Liberty for him).

But, that's coming from a guy who's wife's been known to tell him "Honey, the best way to get out of a hole is to quit digging."

Good luck.

I feel your pain.

Personally, I don't understand why Matthew isn't lobbying to get the TR-7..... Maybe if it had a good stereo.....

Hmm... Ya know, he might be able to succeed at that eventually.. maybe if somebody like an uncle suggested it..

Jim, Edith is indeed a wise and knowledgeable woman, I'll have to remember those instructilons when I start digging a hole of my own with Jenny.