Triumph Sports Cars

engine swaps and other performance upgrades, plus "factory" V8s (Stag and TR8)

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Remade in Detroit
Jamison Janda
Detroit Burbs
(7 posts)

Registered:
03/12/2014 10:05AM

Main British Car:
65 TR 4A Ford 302 5.0

TR 4 steering question
Posted by: Remade in Detroit
Date: March 12, 2014 10:16AM

Newbie here..... I am putting a Ford 302 in my TR4A and have a question about the steering rack. With the extra 100 of weight from the V8 is it a bad idea to put in a quick ratio steering rack of does it not really matter???I know there will be more joints in the steering and I have not heard either way on this site. Also does anyone have any ideas on adding a second brake master to have separate front and rear braking set up?


BlownMGB-V8
Jim Blackwood
9406 Gunpowder Rd., Florence, KY 41042
(6002 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 12:59PM

Main British Car:
1971 MGB Blown,Injected,Intercooled Buick 340/AA80E/JagIRS

authors avatar
Re: TR 4 steering question
Posted by: BlownMGB-V8
Date: March 12, 2014 10:26AM

I'd do everything possible to avoid allowing play in the steering. I've seen it run all over the driver's side of the car but every time you deviate from a straight line you add potential for flex and play and every u-joint is going to wear. I will ALWAYS do everything possible to keep that steering shaft as straight as possible, even if it means compromising the headers.

Jim


Remade in Detroit
Jamison Janda
Detroit Burbs
(7 posts)

Registered:
03/12/2014 10:05AM

Main British Car:
65 TR 4A Ford 302 5.0

Re: TR 4 steering question
Posted by: Remade in Detroit
Date: March 12, 2014 10:32AM

I was told the gearing is a lot tighter/more teeth in the quick ratio rack and with the extra weight it could be harder to steer?? Any thoughts??


BlownMGB-V8
Jim Blackwood
9406 Gunpowder Rd., Florence, KY 41042
(6002 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 12:59PM

Main British Car:
1971 MGB Blown,Injected,Intercooled Buick 340/AA80E/JagIRS

authors avatar
Re: TR 4 steering question
Posted by: BlownMGB-V8
Date: March 12, 2014 10:37AM

Well, how strong are your arms? How many turns lock to lock?

I'm not sure about the TR4 but the MGB had two racks. The early one had maybe just a smidge under 3 turns and the later one had more. Neither has a lot of trouble with an extra hundred pounds, but we do occasionally hear of someone wanting power steering. Your wheel offset has a lot more to do with it. Moving the tire out increases steering forces significantly.

Jim


Remade in Detroit
Jamison Janda
Detroit Burbs
(7 posts)

Registered:
03/12/2014 10:05AM

Main British Car:
65 TR 4A Ford 302 5.0

Re: TR 4 steering question
Posted by: Remade in Detroit
Date: March 12, 2014 10:43AM

I don't think I need power steering. I saw one of the parts suppliers had the quick ratio on sale for the price of the standard rack. and since I have a credit from returned TR4 4 cylinder motor rebuilding parts, should be a no brainer.


Dan B
Dan Blackwood
South Charleston, WV
(973 posts)

Registered:
11/06/2007 01:55PM

Main British Car:
1966 TR4A, 1980 TR7 Multiport EFI MegaSquirt on the TR4A. Lexus V8 pl

authors avatar
Re: TR 4 steering question
Posted by: Dan B
Date: March 12, 2014 03:47PM

Do you think a 302 actually weighs 100 pounds more than the tractor motor it came with?


Remade in Detroit
Jamison Janda
Detroit Burbs
(7 posts)

Registered:
03/12/2014 10:05AM

Main British Car:
65 TR 4A Ford 302 5.0

Re: TR 4 steering question
Posted by: Remade in Detroit
Date: March 12, 2014 04:15PM

Please correct me if I am wrong more info is better than less but from the info on this site I have collected the standard TR4 engine weighs 403 pounds and the standard SBF weighs 460 pounds with iron heads.

If anyone has pics of where to place motor mounts with out having to move the steering rack please share. Also I am stuck on pinion angle vs. engine angle.



88v8
Ivor Duarte
Gloucestershire UK
(822 posts)

Registered:
02/11/2010 04:29AM

Main British Car:
1974 Land Rover Lightweight V8

Re: TR 4 steering question
Posted by: 88v8
Date: March 13, 2014 05:20AM

Steering weight also depends how wide the tyres and what size steering wheel. A quick rack + wide(r) tyres + smaller wheel can add up to a lot of extra effort. As Jim said, how strong are you.
It also depends whether your driving muscles have been corrupted by a PAS daily driver. I never had a car with PAS so for me it's not a problem.

Somewhere I have a pic of a dual master setup on a car I saw. As I recall it wasn't too elegant.

Steering rack - you're right not wanting to move it - you know about bump steer?

Ivor


Dan B
Dan Blackwood
South Charleston, WV
(973 posts)

Registered:
11/06/2007 01:55PM

Main British Car:
1966 TR4A, 1980 TR7 Multiport EFI MegaSquirt on the TR4A. Lexus V8 pl

authors avatar
Re: TR 4 steering question
Posted by: Dan B
Date: March 13, 2014 07:55AM

TR6 should be pretty close to the same. [www.britishv8.org]


BlownMGB-V8
Jim Blackwood
9406 Gunpowder Rd., Florence, KY 41042
(6002 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 12:59PM

Main British Car:
1971 MGB Blown,Injected,Intercooled Buick 340/AA80E/JagIRS

authors avatar
Re: TR 4 steering question
Posted by: BlownMGB-V8
Date: March 13, 2014 06:27PM

And the TR6 had wider tires. I wouldn't worry about it, even with iron heads.

Jim


jdevries
john devries
grand rapids mi
(18 posts)

Registered:
05/08/2011 06:06PM

Main British Car:
1963tr4 chevrolet destroked 400 to 358cu in

authors avatar
Re: TR 4 steering question
Posted by: jdevries
Date: March 14, 2014 07:04AM

Are you going to use the stock steering wheel? If you are going to use a smaller diameter steering wheel the faster rack isn't necessary. I agree with Jim: try to do everything possible to keep the steering shaft straight. Move it inside the car if necessary (I did) so that it just clears the obstructions. Are you going to use the clutch hydraulic master cylinder to actuate a hydraulic throwout bearing? If not, then the linkage shaft that drives the clutch master can be seperated from the clutch pedal, welded to the brake pedal linkage to actuate it, and the hydraulic clutch master can be used for the rear. This necessates a balance bar setup to allow them to function independently but works great.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/15/2014 09:13AM by jdevries.


ghornbostel
Greg Hornbostel
Nebraska
(75 posts)

Registered:
09/02/2013 01:41PM

Main British Car:
1957 TR3 Buick 231 evenfire V6

Re: TR 4 steering question
Posted by: ghornbostel
Date: March 15, 2014 10:46AM

Speedway Motors pt 910-30235 might be just what you are looking for. It looks to be a compact unit that can be coupled to the input side of the box and runs off a normal steering pump.
Regards
Greg Hornbostel


Remade in Detroit
Jamison Janda
Detroit Burbs
(7 posts)

Registered:
03/12/2014 10:05AM

Main British Car:
65 TR 4A Ford 302 5.0

Re: TR 4 steering question
Posted by: Remade in Detroit
Date: March 16, 2014 10:52AM

Thanks for the info. I am not trying to do a power steering set up. I think I want to stay as close to factory set up. I think I will go with quick rack and as shallow angles as possible. The rack comes with solid mounts and I plan to use the factory banjo steering wheel.

John do you have any pics to share on how you moved the steering shaft and the clutch set up? I see your from Grand Rapids I would love to see your car. Any plans on Michigan shows?


jdevries
john devries
grand rapids mi
(18 posts)

Registered:
05/08/2011 06:06PM

Main British Car:
1963tr4 chevrolet destroked 400 to 358cu in

authors avatar
Re: TR 4 steering question
Posted by: jdevries
Date: March 16, 2014 08:17PM

I'll try to get some pics of my set up in the next couple of days. I don't do much with the show circuit, mine still needs a repaint since I rubbed the top on the ground. I like to drive it when time allows. I have spent a few hours on the 28th street cruse each year but riding the clutch in heavy traffic isn't one of my favorite things to do. J


jdevries
john devries
grand rapids mi
(18 posts)

Registered:
05/08/2011 06:06PM

Main British Car:
1963tr4 chevrolet destroked 400 to 358cu in

authors avatar
Re: TR 4 steering question
Posted by: jdevries
Date: March 19, 2014 07:07PM

Jameson, I took some pics of my brake setup and it reminded me how much work it was to package all this stuff in such a tight area. The mount for both master cylinders was moved over to allow more gas pedal clearance, then both cylinders were spaced back towards the firewall until the cap can just be removed to fill them. The clutch actuating pivot was separated from the clutch pedal and welded to the brake pedal. A little yoke was made to fit between the two pivots to move it forward and get enough room for the heim joint in the middle that allows both cylinders to function independently. If the balance bar isn't used, then there isn't any way to adjust front to rear brake balance. If just a proportioning valve is used (mine has that too) without the balance bar, then when the rear pressure reaches the set limit of the valve, it restrains all travel to the front system as well and it won't stop like it should. I know this from experience. I'm enclosing the pics so you can see what it looks like, but IMHO you would probably be better served by trying to adapt the TR6 brake system into your car. Dan Masters has some pics on his site that show this mounting system quite well and it solves all the problems.
Mine has a chevy so the setup on the steering/headers is entirely different however, the principle is the same. Steering in mine is moved inside the car approximately 1 inch over and new mounts fabbed under the dash. The hole in the dash was reworked to hide the move. The Ford engine is 2 inches narrower so that helps a lot with header fab to clear the shaft. I haven't seen a Ford engine install without a u-jointed steering shaft so maybe it's a lot tougher to do. John


Master cyl balance bar.jpg
Master cyl Top View.jpg
P3170144.JPG



74ls1tr6
Calvin Grannis
Elk Grove,CA
(1151 posts)

Registered:
11/10/2007 10:05AM

Main British Car:
74 TR6 / 71 MGB GT TR6/Ls1 71 MGB GT/Ls1

authors avatar
Re: TR 4 steering question
Posted by: 74ls1tr6
Date: March 19, 2014 07:29PM

I have the quick rack in my TR6. It does take out one full turn of the wheel turning out (so 3 1/2 full turns to 2 1/2 full turns lock to lock). At faster speeds you need to be aware not to turn the wheel to much. It is great for auto crossing. I do have a u-joint at both ends of my steering shaft + in the center a double u-joint. I have a 14" steering wheel I think too. It is hard to turn at first, but once the car is moving it is easy. Tires I'm using are fairly good size at 245/45/17 with a +45 offset and 1"adapters. So kind of all the stuff were not wanting to mix in there. It works fine for me. I'm use to it now, but at speed be careful.

Trying to give you insight to someone that has a quick rack installed and yes have the aluminum blocks under the rack.


Dan B
Dan Blackwood
South Charleston, WV
(973 posts)

Registered:
11/06/2007 01:55PM

Main British Car:
1966 TR4A, 1980 TR7 Multiport EFI MegaSquirt on the TR4A. Lexus V8 pl

authors avatar
Re: TR 4 steering question
Posted by: Dan B
Date: March 20, 2014 07:50AM

If you want dual circuit brakes and have the money: [www.revingtontr.com]


jdevries
john devries
grand rapids mi
(18 posts)

Registered:
05/08/2011 06:06PM

Main British Car:
1963tr4 chevrolet destroked 400 to 358cu in

authors avatar
Re: TR 4 steering question
Posted by: jdevries
Date: March 20, 2014 11:49AM

Dan, wish I'd seen that set-up before mine was built. It is a very elegant way to fit them all in one space. Back to the drawing board. Who was it said "if it's worth doing once it's worth doing over"? J


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