Triumph Sports Cars

engine swaps and other performance upgrades, plus "factory" V8s (Stag and TR8)

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Unkle Savage
Tim Coles

(8 posts)

Registered:
10/18/2016 06:26AM

Main British Car:


Spitfire transplant
Posted by: Unkle Savage
Date: October 18, 2016 06:39AM

Hi,

I,m new to the forum and was looking for a bit of advice. I am going to put a 3.0L V6 and gear box from an S type Jag into my Triumph Spitfire. It is also my intention to use the complete front and rear suspension including the diff. I know this is going to be a lot of work and will require a lot of fabrication but I have a good Jag donor car and am committed to the build. My question is regarding the Jag shock absorbers they are quite long and I was wondering if it would be possible to use shorter units and if so can anyone recommend a suitable unit?

Cheers


BWA


(296 posts)

Registered:
04/13/2010 08:13PM

Main British Car:


Re: Spitfire transplant
Posted by: BWA
Date: October 18, 2016 09:24PM

Welcome to the forum Tim.
That 3.0 Liter V6 sounds like a pretty cool engine.
Does this drive train have the 5 speed manual or the automatic?
Are you planning on building a new frame or graft on new frame ends that will work with the suspension.
Are the Jag units coil over shock units?
You could go to QA1 coil over shock units (they are kind of pricey but come in all kinds of lengths.
Remember we like photos on this forum, lots of them.

Cheers
Byron


Unkle Savage
Tim Coles

(8 posts)

Registered:
10/18/2016 06:26AM

Main British Car:


Re: Spitfire transplant
Posted by: Unkle Savage
Date: October 19, 2016 03:20AM

Hi Byron.

I have a 2000 S type Jag with a 5 speed manual which is in really good condition it's done 70K miles and the engine is sweet I got it for a song so want to use as much from it as possible to keep the build cost down. It has the standard struts at the moment and I am intending to try and incorporate the front and rear subframes as much as possible. I will definately look to put new coilovers in place. The engine is all alloy so reasonably light and having spring weight options will be ideal. Ill start posting pictures soon and will start a build log.

Cheers
Tim


BlownMGB-V8
Jim Blackwood
9406 Gunpowder Rd., Florence, KY 41042
(5198 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 12:59PM

Main British Car:
1971 MGB Blown,Injected,Intercooled Buick 340/AA80E/JagIRS

authors avatar
Re: Spitfire transplant
Posted by: BlownMGB-V8
Date: October 19, 2016 10:24AM

That's an ambitious project. You might want to start by removing the frame from the Spitfire, storing the other parts and setting up the Jag frame beside it where you can take measurements and make easy comparisons. Provided you are doing this on a reasonably level concrete floor you can drop lines and make marks on the floor to measure both horizontally and vertically. I would suggest you try to shorten and narrow the Jag frame to match the Spit, rather than trying to graft them together as you would have a serious mismatch in strength and rigidity which would only encourage failures in the remnants of the Spit frame. You may have to build frame sections from scratch to match the Spit body, and remember at any frame splices to make any joints on the diagonal rather than vertical to spread the loads. Also, large diameter tubular crossmembers will do a great deal to reduce body flex if you can incorporate them into the frame at any location.

Best of luck with it. Probably narrowing is going to be your largest challenge.

Jim


Unkle Savage
Tim Coles

(8 posts)

Registered:
10/18/2016 06:26AM

Main British Car:


Re: Spitfire transplant
Posted by: Unkle Savage
Date: October 20, 2016 05:39AM

Hi Jim,

Thanks for the advice, I am fabricating a wheeled jig to put the spit body on so I can deal with the rust on the body and have the chassis free to work on. I need to replace the sills as the LH door is binding so I have bought a pair of door spacers to ensure I get it all square. I'll then take the chassis back to bare metal ready for modding. The last time I did anything like this I used a small laser level with square shot and made a grid on the garage floor that way I get everything aligned, level and square. I'll make a final decision on the adaptation once I have the jag torn down and can offer the subframes up. I already plan to stiffen up the spit chassis with either tube or box steel. I have access to a free supply of box steel from my work place so that is an option. I intend to use the Jag wiring loom and ECU but will do away with the ABS and traction control I don't know if that will work any suggestions are welcome.

Regards

Tim


BlownMGB-V8
Jim Blackwood
9406 Gunpowder Rd., Florence, KY 41042
(5198 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 12:59PM

Main British Car:
1971 MGB Blown,Injected,Intercooled Buick 340/AA80E/JagIRS

authors avatar
Re: Spitfire transplant
Posted by: BlownMGB-V8
Date: October 20, 2016 05:51AM

Tim, you do know that narrowing your track is going to change your ackerman angle, right?

Jim


Unkle Savage
Tim Coles

(8 posts)

Registered:
10/18/2016 06:26AM

Main British Car:


Re: Spitfire transplant
Posted by: Unkle Savage
Date: October 21, 2016 03:16AM

Hi Jim,

As the jag is about 10" wider I was hoping to keep the width the same so avoiding any geometry changes. I'm pretty good at fabrication but not so hot on engineering know how. I really want to use as much from the donor car as possible, including the brakes and possibly the power steering. Also keeping the wheel hubs the same making wheel choice a bit simpler is an idea. If the front does not work out I'm sure I can find another suitable setup from another vehicle or upgrade the spit front end and adapt the jag rear to suit. Again any advice is most apreciated that is why I joined this forum as you guys have built some stunning cars. My initial plan was to adapt the spit chassis to match up to the mounting points of the jag subframes then beef up the chassis to handle the additional power and tourque. I have done a few engine transplants before that required extensive bodywork and frame mods but nothing this ambitious. I'm Uk based and over here when I mentioned my plans on some enthusiat sites they wanted to burn me at the stake as a heretic for even suggesting such a thing. A lot of Google searching and I found this site and was inspired by the builds I saw here, so again any advice/suggestions are most welcome. This weekend I plan to remove all the parts I want fron the jag and sell the rest it has a rust free and unmarked body and a nice set of 18" alloys with low profile tyres that should sell and the interior is great. Once I can offer up the parts it will be easier to see how practical my plan is.

Regards

Tim


Regards

Tim



Unkle Savage
Tim Coles

(8 posts)

Registered:
10/18/2016 06:26AM

Main British Car:


Re: Spitfire transplant
Posted by: Unkle Savage
Date: October 21, 2016 12:45PM

Hi Jim

You are correct I did not fully consider the Ackerman angle, as the spit wheelbase is shorter if I did maintain the width of the front sub frame the angle of intersection would be behind the rear axle causing toe-in on the inner wheel. I will either have to move the rear sub frame back to match the jag wheelbase which would involve major headaches re-fitting the body, or narrow the front frame so the point of intersection is correct. I would also adjust the rear to match and that route would make the body mods a lot easier and keep the spit nearer to the original dimensions. Looks like I got a weekend of measuring and planning.

Regards

Tim


waterbucket
Philip Waterman
England
(55 posts)

Registered:
07/30/2011 01:08PM

Main British Car:
1978 MGB GT

Re: Spitfire transplant
Posted by: waterbucket
Date: October 23, 2016 12:57PM

Hello Tim
Like you I am UK based and also trying to use the Jaguar V6 engine but this time in an MGB. I will watch your progress with interest, mine is proceeding very slowly. I have got to the stage where I am going to remove the front crossmember to weld on engine mounts.
I have some info for you which you may find usefull (or not), the engine weighs 360lbs complete. If the sump is the wrong shape for clearance the following have the sump at the back rather than in front of the engine. The Mondeo V6, X type Jaguar and ST220 Mondeo all have different sumps and all interchange. The ST220 sump is best because it holds a litre more oil (I think) to try and cure the oil starvation problems that ruined many of these engines,, use the corresponding dipstick though. For those that have not seen it the S type sump extends in front of the engine. The same applies to inlet manifolds, they are all different heights.
I am using a T5 gearbox simply for the better ratios, you will need large wheels and/or a high diff ratio or you will find first and second are rather low with the standard Getrag gearbox.
Are you modifying the rear end just to fit the S type rear? if so have you considered the Canley Classics [www.canleyclassics.com]) suspension mods to keep the original layout, this includes alloy rear uprights, cv driveshafts, trunnionless front uprights and alloy hubs? I know that like me you are doing this on a budget but it would possibly be an easier route. A diff option would be from BMW the smallest 168mm diff will easily cope with the V6 torque in the sort of ratio that you will use and only weighs 49lbs according to [metricmechanic.com] The larger 188mm diff will cope with 400ft/lbs and weighs 61 lbs. These diffs can be bought low mileage for £20 to £50 except for the low ratios (3.64 and up) and have every ratio you could possibly want.
I will particularly interested in how you get on with the engine management, there is very little out there for these engines but have read that with better manifolds, no cat and a better exhaust 300bhp is achievable on a standard engine. This would require a standalone ECU, any one have any idea which one though?
best regards
Philip



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/23/2016 01:08PM by waterbucket.


Unkle Savage
Tim Coles

(8 posts)

Registered:
10/18/2016 06:26AM

Main British Car:


Re: Spitfire transplant
Posted by: Unkle Savage
Date: October 24, 2016 02:58AM

Hi Philip,

Thanks for the information especially regarding the sump I have checked out the Cranley Classics site there is a lot of good stuff there especially for modding the suspension and brakes. My spit was registered in 79 so I believe it has the better floating leaf spring arrangement already at the rear. My original plan was to use the jag front and rear suspension and hubs etc purely as having a complete car to cannibalise it makes sense. I even plan to use the pedal box so I can keep the fly by wire throttle and sensors. The main problems I belive with using the stock ecu are the non engine related sensors there is one on the steering box that can cause problems. Alternately there are a couple of after market options Emerald make one, the K6 that works well with the ford v6 the only problem with that is you need the Mondeo st220 throttle bodies and intake manifold as it wont work with fly by wire. One bonus is the the mondeo intake is a bit lowe. There is also the megasquirt I dont know if that needs a manual cable throttle. I've only just started my build and this weekend just stripped the spitfire to look at the rust issues. All in all not bad for a barn find left under a tarpaulin for 10 years. I'll need to look at the A pillar bottoms mid and outer sills and the floor needs a couple of patches but is generally solid. All the parts are available from Rimmer Bros so no problem there, next weekends job will be to brace the doors open and get the gapping right then weld in temporay stiffeners before cutting the old sills and A pillars out. It will be a few weeks before I start any serious suspension work.

Regards

Tim


Unkle Savage
Tim Coles

(8 posts)

Registered:
10/18/2016 06:26AM

Main British Car:


Re: Spitfire transplant
Posted by: Unkle Savage
Date: April 24, 2017 10:51AM

Hi

I thought I would put an update on my progress, so far most of my work has been in getting a solid body I tried to patch as much as possible but in the end decided that new panels is the way to go. So now I have replaced the floor, inner sill, strengthener, outer sill, lower A post and B post on the left side. The right will be next as I expect it to be the same condition then I will have a good solid body I've not done the wheel arches as they will need modifying for the wheels I am planning on fitting. To make life easier I fabricated a stand on castors so the car is at waist height now and I can move it around, as my garage is quite narrow. Regarding the diff ratios I have got the diff from a 3 series BMW with a ratio of 2.93:1 using an online calculator this works out that I can fit 16" wheels with 195-45-16 tyres which matches the Jaguar final drive. The wheels also are are then nearly the same height as the original spitfire wheels and tyres so only minor fender mods will be required for the wider wheels. For the ECU I have gone for a Megasquirt 3 pro the guys at DIY Auto Tune where really helpful and listed out what I needed. I have dry-sumped my engine so no issues with fitting/oil starvation and I am planning on using a Jenvey throttle body kit and manifolds so no more fly by wire. My original plan for a low budget build has gone out the window so I sold one of my bikes to finance the build. I am also going to weld in a steel transmission tunnel as that will add a bit more strength to the body tub, once I have something worth looking at I'll start posting pictures.

regards
Tim


BWA


(296 posts)

Registered:
04/13/2010 08:13PM

Main British Car:


Re: Spitfire transplant
Posted by: BWA
Date: April 25, 2017 02:10PM

Tim it sounds like you are making great progress.
Yes photos are required.........
Looking forward to hearing more on what is going on.
I have kept track of the money I have spent on my car and it amazes me how it adds up.
Two hundred here fifty there and it never ends.
I am fortunate I do not have a wife to questioning these expenditures.

Cheers
Byron


waterbucket
Philip Waterman
England
(55 posts)

Registered:
07/30/2011 01:08PM

Main British Car:
1978 MGB GT

Re: Spitfire transplant
Posted by: waterbucket
Date: April 26, 2017 01:34AM

im
I am interested to know what Megasquirt bits you have bought and the advice you have had from DIY Auto Tune, as you know I am attempting to go down a similar route with an MGB. Why did you go for Megasquirt? and why with DIY Auto Tune rather than a UK based supplier? I have no fixed idea as to what ecu to choose and your thoughts would be appreciated.
My progress has been almost non existant this last year but this week have bought everything (I hope) that I need to fabricate the exhaust headers, all in stainless steel. The bends are from Germany and the pipe from Poland (at less than a third of UK cost for bends) all in 304 grade metal.
Philip


Unkle Savage
Tim Coles

(8 posts)

Registered:
10/18/2016 06:26AM

Main British Car:


Re: Spitfire transplant
Posted by: Unkle Savage
Date: April 26, 2017 08:17AM

Hi Philip,

I did contact a UK supplier but they were not very helpful they just said to check the online manual and tell them what I would need and were not too forthcoming with any further information. I then contacted DIY Autotune and they asked me for the specific engine details then sent me a list of what would be needed. They recommended using GM Map sensor rather than the jag/ford version as there were map curves on line for it. I asked if this was a plug and play and they said they could not do that (I have attached the email and list of parts below) as it was not an engine they had previously made a plug and play ECU for. I have since asked questions regarding TPS, using a Jenvey 6 throttle body intake and other items and have always received a good reply. I also spoke to Emerald they would supply the ECU and do all the work for me including the wiring and setting up on a rolling road but would need the car completed. They wanted a little over £2k to do this which I don't think is too bad but unfortunately that will not fit in with the way I need to build the car.

E-mail and shopping list from DIY Autotune:-

OK, for this application, you'll need a pair of QuadSpark ignition modules to run the stock coil on plug ignition, and a cable operated throttle. If you don't have a calibration curve for the stock MAF, I'd also recommend using a GM type MAP sensor for load calculations.
Thanks,

Matt Cramer
DIYAutoTune support

OK, we typically reserve the term "plug and play" for a system that either ships with a complete, ready to go harness or plugs directly into an OEM harness and comes with a base map for a stock example of the engine that we have tested on our own dyno. And I would like to make it quite clear that we can't deliver THAT level of ready to go for this engine; you would need to do a bit of wiring and tuning to get it up and running, but you wouldn't need to open the ECU case or anything. Here's what I recommend.

$1199.00 MS3Pro-PKG1: MS3Pro package with 8' (2.4m) wiring harness and tuning cables
$64.00 GM3bar-map: MAP sensor
$11.50 GM3bar_piggy: Pigtail connector for MAP sensor
$178.00 2 QuadSpark: Four channel ignition modules ($89.00 each)
$22.25 IATwPiggy: Intake Air Temperature Sensor
$9.00 38NPT-Bung_A: Aluminum bung for IAT sensor (Also available in stainless steel)
$1483.75 Subtotal without wideband

The wideband oxygen sensor system is optional, but a very useful tuning tool. We carry the Innovate line.

Wideband Options—

$189.00 LC-2 without gauge (you can still view real-time AFR and datalog AFR through your laptop)
$209.00 MTX-L digital gauge system
$219.00 LC-2 with DB digital gauge (available in red, green, or blue)
$259.00 LC-2 with G series analog gauge
$349.00 LM-2 basic data logger with one sensor
$479.00 LM-2 deluxe kit with one O2 sensor
$669.00 LM-2 deluxe kit with two O2 sensors

I think this will give you a pretty good start in the right direction. If you’d like to place an order, you can do so at www.diyautotune.com/shop/ and it will calculate exact shipping costs (based on weight of your order) and accept all major credit cards securely. If there is anything else I can assist with, please just let me know!
Thanks,

Matt Cramer
DIYAutoTune support

I hope this information helps Philip and I will keep you posted with any successes or failures, my ECU etc should be here soon and I will set it up and get the engine running I can then give you a better idea of how easy it is or isn't.

Regards

Tim


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