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castlesid
Kevin Jackson
Sidcup UK
(361 posts)

Registered:
11/18/2007 10:38AM

Main British Car:
1975 MGB GT Rover V8 4.35L

Building A Race Olds 215
Posted by: castlesid
Date: August 07, 2009 01:27PM

Hi Guys,

Looking for some of your collective wisdom.

A friend of mine is interested in entering a one make race series which can use a variety of engines but with retrictive regs to keep costs down,

There is nothing to stop you using a V8 and the max capacity is 3651cc which = 215 + 60 thou which is handy!

The major restriction is you must use the inlet manifold and carb which the engine originally came with,
with a maximun of two chokes/barrels, though these may be modified.

We are now thinking that the olds 215 would make quite a good basis for this engine as the heads with the valves closer to the centreline of the bore have more potential, something similar to what Kurt Schley had done by Dwayne Porter but full race spec.

We would also be lintending to use a roller cam and lifters to maximise the valve opening periods to offset the restrictive breathing of only having two chokes/barrels to get the air and fuel through.

If we use the Olds engine that will mean using the two barrel manifold and Rochester carb of which I know nothing.

D & D will obviously come into the equation as a source of the engine and related parts.

So advice re the cost of getting the heads built to full race spec and what we may be able to do with the inlet and carb would be most helpful.

I look forward to hearing your suggestions.

Regards,

Kevin.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/07/2009 01:35PM by castlesid.


mabie1978
Michelle Pierce
Elyria, OH
(111 posts)

Registered:
08/25/2008 07:47PM

Main British Car:
1978 MGB 3.5 Rover V8

Re: Building A Race Olds 215
Posted by: mabie1978
Date: August 07, 2009 03:41PM

I wonder if that is what Kurt was planning to do with the block I bought off of him, the bore on it is close to the max and he had a set of the hard to find heads. I will be reading this one Kevin to see what replies you get. Sounds interesting.


castlesid
Kevin Jackson
Sidcup UK
(361 posts)

Registered:
11/18/2007 10:38AM

Main British Car:
1975 MGB GT Rover V8 4.35L

Re: Building A Race Olds 215
Posted by: castlesid
Date: August 07, 2009 04:07PM

Hi Michelle,

Yes it's an interesting project and having to work within class regs makes it more of a challenge.

I appear to have answered my question about the carb as have found a company in Ca that modify Rochester carbs for racing and they will flow 500CFM, that'll do nicely, just the inlet mods to sort out, don't know whether their aly or cast iron, i know they certainly were not designed for high RPM work but I'm sure there's some tricks that can be utilised to make them work.

[www.smicarburetor.com]

Kevin.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/07/2009 04:16PM by castlesid.


BlownMGB-V8
Jim Blackwood
9406 Gunpowder Rd., Florence, KY 41042
(6468 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 12:59PM

Main British Car:
1971 MGB Blown,Injected,Intercooled Buick 340/AA80E/JagIRS

authors avatar
Re: Building A Race Olds 215
Posted by: BlownMGB-V8
Date: August 07, 2009 05:24PM

Kevin, the Rochester 2bbl is actually a very good carb and as you've found can be made to flow quite well. There were at least two bore sizes available, obviously here bigger is better. The archives may have an article or two on them. Best of luck with your build.

Jim


roverman
Art Gertz
Winchester, CA.
(3188 posts)

Registered:
04/24/2009 11:02AM

Main British Car:
74' Jensen Healy, 79 Huff. GT 1, 74 MGB Lotus 907,2L

Re: Building A Race Olds 215
Posted by: roverman
Date: August 07, 2009 06:24PM

Kevin, Do rules allow head mods? Can't run 300/Rover looking heads? De-stroked 4L crank to make the cc limit? 3.7 bore will breathe better with reduced thermal losses. Crossbolted mains more durable. Non-stock rods? 1 3/4" SU's won't flow more? Windage Tray/dry-sump? Stock 1.660" valve C/L Rover heads take 1.77" int. and 1.5" exh. and flows approx. 177cfm.@ 28" on int. So the BL/ Huffaker, logo int. man not legal? Good Luck, roverman.


castlesid
Kevin Jackson
Sidcup UK
(361 posts)

Registered:
11/18/2007 10:38AM

Main British Car:
1975 MGB GT Rover V8 4.35L

Re: Building A Race Olds 215
Posted by: castlesid
Date: August 07, 2009 06:32PM

Jim,

Yes Ill do some investigation but the SMI site has most of the spec I needed.

Whats your opinion on the Olds 215 Heads, I think you had an Olds 215 in your B albeit with a blower on top.

Kevin.


castlesid
Kevin Jackson
Sidcup UK
(361 posts)

Registered:
11/18/2007 10:38AM

Main British Car:
1975 MGB GT Rover V8 4.35L

Re: Building A Race Olds 215
Posted by: castlesid
Date: August 07, 2009 07:51PM

Art,

Can't use most of the stuff you mention and if we use the Rover were stuck with the 1 /34" SU's which I'm sure wont flow 500CFM

The engine must run the block original stroke crank,heads, Inlet manifold and carb.with no more than 2 chokes/barrels all from the same original engine so the Olds look a better choice

The basic engine now seems fairly straightforward, the usual mods to the bottom end with possibly a girdle plate to tie the bottom end together. Possibly Rover rods which I believe are a little stronger than the Olds items, upgraded cast or possibly forged high comp pistons to get us into the 12.5/1 area and a pair of Olds 215 38cc chamber full race heads. Valve gear possibly roller rockers or Group A volvo type.

To get the most out of the spec we are going to need a roller cam and lifters (solid) and need some advice as to the most suitable spec.for the cam, power range would be 4000RPM - 7500RPM

A modified carb looks ok for what we need, but the stock 2 barrel inlet is an unknown as to how its breathing potential can be improved, any ideas? also is it Ally or cast Iron?

Kevin.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/07/2009 07:53PM by castlesid.



BlownMGB-V8
Jim Blackwood
9406 Gunpowder Rd., Florence, KY 41042
(6468 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 12:59PM

Main British Car:
1971 MGB Blown,Injected,Intercooled Buick 340/AA80E/JagIRS

authors avatar
Re: Building A Race Olds 215
Posted by: BlownMGB-V8
Date: August 08, 2009 12:26AM

The stock intake is aluminum, no worries there. No iron intakes were ever used on the 215 so far as I've heard. Olds intake runners are a little more restrictive than the ones in the Buick heads, and for that reason in N/A applications the Buick heads have almost always been the item of choice. If you are allowed to do porting work the situation can be improved of course, but take a look at how the sixth head bolt impacts the intake port routing. The Buick heads (and Rover) don't have to deal with that and can therefore get a straighter shot at the valve. I can't think of any inherent advantage in using the Olds as a platform unless higher cylinder pressures such as in a boosted engine or nitrous is part of the plan, and then the extra head bolt is supposed to give more even gasket clamping, but in practice I do not believe that it does, as I saw compression leakage between the inside bolts which would seem to indicate what the two extra rows of outside bolts were actually doing was warping the heads very slightly. (bear in mind under two atmospheres and without o-rings on a plain composition gasket it just about had to leak someplace, that place was inside the two central rows of bolts) Now having said that much, and implied that 10 head bolts is the best arrangement for sealing, I should also point out that studs should be used. I do not believe that head bolts in the Olds or Buick block give adequate clamping regardless of the number.

The Buick 2bbl intake is very similar to the 4bbl intake. In fact it is quite possible it has the same runners and just a different pad for the carb. The Olds 2bbl intake otoh is a bit of an oddball, with an unusual arrangement for the air cleaner and a ring cast into the manifold to mate with it. I've only ever seen one of them, they aren't considered a desirable item and have been frequently replaced and discarded so may be rather hard to find. Overall I think you may find the Buick engine the better choice, but if you have an Olds block it is considered an acceptable replacement for the Buick (can't go the other way) however I do believe there were some distinguishable casting differences so you might want to check before you mix-n-match. hth

Jim


Moderator
Curtis Jacobson
Portland Oregon
(4576 posts)

Registered:
10/12/2007 02:16AM

Main British Car:
71 MGBGT, Buick 215

authors avatar
Re: Building A Race Olds 215
Posted by: Moderator
Date: August 08, 2009 03:17AM

Jim wrote: "The Olds 2bbl intake otoh is a bit of an oddball, with an unusual arrangement for the air cleaner and a ring cast into the manifold to mate with it."

I've never seen a good hi-res photo of the whole installation.

Here's a photo of the Olds 2-barrel manifold. Above number label "3", I think you can see the slot where the PCV hose was routed. Does the throttle linkage come through a hole below number label "1"?
Olds2bbl.JPG

In this photo, it almost appears that the ignition coil is inside the air cleaner...
http://www.britishv8.org/Articles/Images-V16-1/SpeedMechanics-E.jpg

Additional differences between Olds and Buick 215's are discussed here:
"There's Soupability in GM's Aluminum V8's" Speed Mechanics Magazine, August 1961



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/08/2009 03:42AM by Moderator.


BlownMGB-V8
Jim Blackwood
9406 Gunpowder Rd., Florence, KY 41042
(6468 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 12:59PM

Main British Car:
1971 MGB Blown,Injected,Intercooled Buick 340/AA80E/JagIRS

authors avatar
Re: Building A Race Olds 215
Posted by: BlownMGB-V8
Date: August 08, 2009 12:18PM

"These new Buick and Olds engines will undoubtedly influence the future of the automotive industry."

You might say that, yes.


castlesid
Kevin Jackson
Sidcup UK
(361 posts)

Registered:
11/18/2007 10:38AM

Main British Car:
1975 MGB GT Rover V8 4.35L

Re: Building A Race Olds 215
Posted by: castlesid
Date: August 08, 2009 03:06PM

Jim,

Yes and 50 years later we are still playing with them.

Curtis,

Thanks for the link to the archive information on the Olds and Buick 215's. Not sure if that sectioned manifold is Olds or Buick whichever, it looks fairly tortuous with lots of water passages. would love to see how the runners work. A cross section through the carb base plate centre runners would be very helpful if it exists.

I think the problem we are going to have is the manifold holding back the rest of the engine.

Any ideas on the cost of head work by Dwayne Porter (smile) or contact details, as I'm sure money can be saved by sourcing parts and services from the US now that the exchange rate has improved a bit.

Perhaps Kurt Schley could give me an idea of what the work to his heads cost.

Kevin.


Moderator
Curtis Jacobson
Portland Oregon
(4576 posts)

Registered:
10/12/2007 02:16AM

Main British Car:
71 MGBGT, Buick 215

authors avatar
Re: Building A Race Olds 215
Posted by: Moderator
Date: August 08, 2009 07:09PM

Quote:
Not sure if that sectioned manifold is Olds or Buick whichever, it looks fairly tortuous with lots of water passages. would love to see how the runners work. A cross section through the carb base plate centre runners would be very helpful if it exists.

I'm not 100% sure either, but I think the sectioned views in that article showed Buick parts, and any Olds parts were shown un-cut...

Additional sectioned views of the Buick manifold and heads appear in this article:
The New Buick Aluminum Engine (an S.A.E. paper by Buick engineers)

examples:
http://www.britishv8.org/Articles/Images-V16-2/Buick-Aluminum-Engine-36.jpg

http://www.britishv8.org/Articles/Images-V16-2/Buick-Aluminum-Engine-29.jpg http://www.britishv8.org/Articles/Images-V16-2/Buick-Aluminum-Engine-30.jpg




I'm very curious to know what engines your competitors will be using. Any guesses?


castlesid
Kevin Jackson
Sidcup UK
(361 posts)

Registered:
11/18/2007 10:38AM

Main British Car:
1975 MGB GT Rover V8 4.35L

Re: Building A Race Olds 215
Posted by: castlesid
Date: August 08, 2009 07:29PM

Curtis,

Thanks, did do a search but didn't find anything.

Kevin.


castlesid
Kevin Jackson
Sidcup UK
(361 posts)

Registered:
11/18/2007 10:38AM

Main British Car:
1975 MGB GT Rover V8 4.35L

Re: Building A Race Olds 215
Posted by: castlesid
Date: August 10, 2009 05:37AM

Curtis,

Engine classes.

1. 1600cc 16 valve twin cam. EFI

2. 2000cc 8 Valve twincam no EFI

3. 2001 - 3651cc push rod single cam no EFI and with original manifold and 2 Barrels/chokes carb.
Cam, valvegear and headwork would appear to be free but no metal to be added to heads or manifold I believe.

Kevin.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/10/2009 06:14PM by castlesid.


castlesid
Kevin Jackson
Sidcup UK
(361 posts)

Registered:
11/18/2007 10:38AM

Main British Car:
1975 MGB GT Rover V8 4.35L

Re: Building A Race Olds 215
Posted by: castlesid
Date: August 11, 2009 06:13AM

Any suggestions on the headwork costs?

Kevin.



NixVegaGT
Nicolas Wiederhold
Minneapolis, MN
(659 posts)

Registered:
10/16/2007 05:30AM

Main British Car:
'73 Vega GT 4.9L Rover/Buick Stroker

authors avatar
Re: Building A Race Olds 215
Posted by: NixVegaGT
Date: August 11, 2009 08:30AM

Fun thread. I've got a couple suggestions and one counter argument. First things first:

It sounds like you can modify the valve gear so I'll suggest getting some rocker shaft end girdles. The replace the outside rocker shaft mounts and include a gusset that fits over the end of the shaft. It dampens harmonic vibrations at high RPM leading to shaft breakage.

I would argue that the Olds is the preferable engine to the Buick. Specifically considering the class restrictions. The valve placement is WAY better for reducing valve shrouding and the wedge combustion chamber is more stable for high compression charge homogenization. Finally, the exhaust port configuration flows better. The Buick head is probably more versatile for porting though because of the extra head bolts on the Olds. The Olds intake is definitely weird. My point is: I think you're right that the intake is the limiting factor not the heads.

I was going to argue that with the extra long rod ratio needs a smaller intake port for flow but RPM is the great equalizer there. hopefully you can get way up there.

After rereading those restrictions over and over I got an idea: Perhaps you could use the stock 4-barrel engine with the better manifold and adapt the 2-barrel to it? Does it mean it is supposed to be a 2-barrel manifold too? The way you wrote it down it says "original manifold" and 2-barrel restriction.

Just tossing out ideas. This sounds like a fun project.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/11/2009 08:32AM by NixVegaGT.


BlownMGB-V8
Jim Blackwood
9406 Gunpowder Rd., Florence, KY 41042
(6468 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 12:59PM

Main British Car:
1971 MGB Blown,Injected,Intercooled Buick 340/AA80E/JagIRS

authors avatar
Re: Building A Race Olds 215
Posted by: BlownMGB-V8
Date: August 11, 2009 12:16PM

Another thought... The Jetfire intake is a 2 throat manifold. It may have better ports and it certainly looks better. It has a 3 bolt plate that attaches to the top of the intake and seals to the turbo outlet. Once that is removed you have basically a 2 bbl intake with an oddball bolt pattern, but that wouldn't be hard to deal with.

Jim


castlesid
Kevin Jackson
Sidcup UK
(361 posts)

Registered:
11/18/2007 10:38AM

Main British Car:
1975 MGB GT Rover V8 4.35L

Re: Building A Race Olds 215
Posted by: castlesid
Date: August 11, 2009 01:17PM

Nick/Jim,

Thanks for the additional info and ideas.

The jetfire manifold sounds interesting, I have seen in the distant past, any pics of this manifold?

I printed of a copy of the engine regs last night and will study the wording carefully.

The rocker shaft supports are a must have,for the RPM we wiil need to run and are available over here.

The Olds heads modified by Dwayne Porter have inlet runners 1" wide x 1.7" tall which is just a shade smaller than stock 300 runners and for a 215 I feel are adequate, and the flow figures look encouraging.

One thought is that by using an Olds engine rather than a Rover is that the scrutineers will be less familiar with the variants of that engine and we may have a little more flexibility in how the regs are inforced. The 2001cc-3651cc class seems to be the least restictive apart from the manifold.

Kevin.


Bill Young
Bill Young
Kansas City, MO
(1337 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 09:23AM

Main British Car:
'73 MG Midget V6 , '59 MGA I6 2.8 GM, 4.0 Jeep

authors avatar
Re: Building A Race Olds 215
Posted by: Bill Young
Date: August 11, 2009 01:39PM

I know it really doesn't seem to match the spirit of the rules, but what about the entire Jetfire intake system with turbo and all. Still stock intake manifolding and a small carb. ;-)


castlesid
Kevin Jackson
Sidcup UK
(361 posts)

Registered:
11/18/2007 10:38AM

Main British Car:
1975 MGB GT Rover V8 4.35L

Re: Building A Race Olds 215
Posted by: castlesid
Date: August 11, 2009 08:18PM

Bill.

No turbo's I'm sad to say.

kevin.
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