Engine and Transmission Tech

Hi everyone,

I've tried looking through the posts and doing searches here on how to place the Rover V8 lower and further back in the TR7. Doesn't seem that anyone has done this, though.

Has anyone here done it in a TR7/8? (Relocate the engine, that is.)

I figure since my planned project is to swap in an Rv8, then I should consider the challenges, cost and benefits of relocation. If the bay is going to be open and I'm going to have to replace the crossmember and mounts anyway, this should be a relatively straight forward project, right(?)

It will be fitted with a dry sump so that should offer some clearance.

I know I'll have to shorten the driveshaft, lower trans, relocate the trans mount, and refit the clutch hydrlc line.

The diff (IRS to be decided?) angle will also have to be calculated.

Can anyone shed some light or am I way off base here?

Thanks in advance,

Trip



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/23/2009 01:13AM by TRip.

Race car? Big budget? Checked the class rules? Multi-stage dry-sump on street? I have cast alum. pan/girdles. Absolutely nothing to be gained by having engine/trans lower than bottom of car. Since motor is so light, not as much to be gained as say an iron motor in relocation. Since you want irs., consider transaxle for weight relocation. Perhaps something easy to get like, "Boxter". A good way to improve handling is having the car as low as possible,(adjustable ride height)? How fa$$t do you want to go? Burn rubber-not wallet. roverman.

Roverman,

I like that... "Burn rubber-not wallet."

"consider transaxle for weight relocation. Perhaps something easy to get like, "Boxter"." Intriguing comment. Could you please elaborate? Has it been done before?

Could you also elaborate re: cast alum. pan/girdles?

It will be taken out on track days and will be street driven so has to meet DOT. So I would like to build it to be track capable right from the beginning.

Thank you for your comments

Trip

Trip, First-off, let's back -track a little. How much "real" HP/Tork? at what rpm? Turbo?-lil' easier on drive train. Usually non mammoth tork at launch w/o. nitrous. Weight of vehicle, 1 st. gear overall ratio? What are you trying to prove/accomplish? You need to skillfully fill-in these and other blanks to achieve,"Autotopia". I mentioned Porsche Boxter only because, there plentifull, made for mid or with drive shaft, front motors. If you make a 1000 "reliable" horsees, verified, we will all concede our "unworthyness". The C5/C6 Vette, BorgWarner, 6 spd, t-axel is "quite" sturdy, Lindenfelter purportedly nearly loaded 1200 hp. through one until engine blew. I'm thinkin with your puny 1000 hp. in a TR7, should hold it. Don't expect my puny girdle pan to. Speed co$t $$. How Fa$$t? n roverman.

Also Trip, I might suggest that since the Rover motor fits, the 340 also should fit without any real difficulty. Use the new TA heads that will come out about the first of the year and you have a pretty good route to power. I'm not sure what the TR7 motor weighs but the 340 with alloy heads is only 82 lbs heavier than the 215 (I understand the later Rovers are also a few pounds heavier) and that's a pretty good trade off for the extra cubic inches and an iron block. Ask around, you'll find that an extra hundred pounds on the front of the car does not make a significant difference in handling on the MGB and it probably is about the same on the TR7. Just another thing to consider. Of course, if you really do want that 1000hp one good way to get it is with a TA aluminum V6, since they are now trying to break 2000 with that engine. It's based on the Buick V6. Punch in taperformance.com download their catalog and browse. Lots of stuff for Buicks, even an aluminum big block. That would get you over 1000 real easy. Since we put one in an MGB (iron block, alloy heads) it might even fit.

Jim

Uhhhm, I'm confused guys, have I missed something? 1000hp, you say? Noooooo. I'm only hoping for 300hp and I'm thinking that's opimistic. I'll be happy with 250-285ish.

Okay, I'll clarify.

roverman, no turbo, SC, Nitros etc. only normally asp. MPEFI.

I believe the C6 trans has a T56. I made another post regarding opinions about the T56 VS Toyota V161.

Jim, the older Rover V8 motor is 318lbs and newer 325lbs.

TA heads? Okay, I'll check out their cat.

I was leaning towards the Merlin F85s.

I hope I haven't confused the conversation.

Trip.

Trip,

Firstly save yourself a lot of grief and keep the engine in the stock TR8 location and then other parts like headers will fit, if you are only looking for 200-250 BHP then a Rover 3.9 will do the job with a decent pair of heads a compatable cam, and decent induction system, hotwire EFI with a megasquirt would work well.

I believe that there new subframes available for the V8 conversion and obviously you will want to rebuild and upgrade the front and rear suspension and brakes for track use.

As for the rear end I would keep it simple and just do the tried and tested mods to the rear suspension, Group 44 and Huffaker made their cars work pretty well.

The Wedge Shop should be a good source of parts and information. and Lanocha Racing do some nice stuff for the TR7/8 including the Group 44 body kit.

Kevin.

I think Kevin hit a really good point: headers. If you're willing to commit to all the effort of building home-made headers, that opens up lots of options. If you want to bolt on someone else's header design, they'll severely limit where the engine will fit.

In my MGB, the Buick 215 is about four inches rearward of "normal". I made my own headers twenty years ago, and now I'm about ready for a new set. I'd consider buying "MG RV8" headers, except with my engine so far back off-the-shelf RV8 headers would interfere with my tires and limit my turning radius. The second set will have to be home-made too!

If you think you might ever race your TR7 (as a "TR8") , engine location might be a problem with class rules. When I built my car, there was no class for MGB GT V8 race cars to race in North America, but now you can build and race an MGB GT V8-conversion in SVRA, HSR, or SCCA. Three different sets of rules. My car could probably be SVRA-legal in two weekends (although it wouldn't be remotely competitive!) if not for one big problem: the SVRA rules require that the engine be at least six inches forward of the MGB firewall. If I wanted to race my car in SVRA, I'd need to move the engine forward about three inches.

I moved the engine back in my Vega GT project by 2" and down about 1 1/2". I got more clearance for induction and better, although minimal, weight distribution. I found it to be pretty easy not including all the time I sat and considered it. Actually doing it only took a couple hours. Mitigating factors? I was fabricating my own crossmember already, changing the steering mechanism to a rack and relocating everything.

All that said, Kevin's point about being able to use off the shelf headers is pretty nice. I had to fabricate my headers no matter what I was doing so no extra time was needed there.

Woody at the Wedge Shop is a great resource for cams. He's done a lot of cam testing on their set of TR's. Worth a look anyway:

[www.thewedgeshop.com]

I worked with him on finding the right cam for my stroker engine. Very knowledgeable. The likelihood is high that he's built something like what your looking for.

Kevin regarding headers, yes that's a brilliant point. I see how it could be a huge hassle relocating the engine with little or no benefit. Thru my research, I realized that I would also have to relocate the trans mount, shorten the drive shaft and re-calculate the angle of the diff.

Can you please elaborate on the Hotwire EFI? I am familiar with Megasquirt.

Do you have any info on the new V8 subframes?

Those Lanocha body kits are nice but soooo pricey! I believe approx. $6000.

Thanks,

Trip

Curtis, I had seen an engine related racing rule that stated the forward most spark plug could not be rear of the front wheel hub center.

I'm honestly not sure which class that was in relation. Thanks for the insight, I'll look into regs for different classes. I plan to get the car out on track days as I don't think I'm good enough to race at any higher level.

BTW. That's a purrrty car you have!

Thanks for the tips.

Trip

Nicolas, interesting point about minimal weight distribution benefits. I wonder if that would be similar result in the TR7?

Thanks for the Wedge shop lead on cams. That's going on my list of things to research.

Trip

Trip,

Hotwire EFI, standard factory EFI on 3.9, 4.2 and some 3.5 engines. can be used with a Megasquirt or similar ECU for modified engines with the airflow meter removed and using MAP (manifold absolute pressure) or throttle positions sensor.

Also by keeping the engine in the stock position the gearbox should fit without mods to the tunnel and you can probably get a modded TR7 crossmember. a standard TR8 propshaft and your coolant system will be simpler to sort ot with standard hoses etc.

It's all those little mods that run into money, remember the rule of thumb alter one thing and you have to change at least three others!

The lanocha body kit is just under $3000.00 now if I had a TR7/8 instead of a BV8 !

[www.lanocharacing.com]

Kevin

I'm currently in the process of figuring out this information for myself.

Moving the V8 down partly depends on whether you are running power steering or not. With a TR7 steering box, you can drop the engine about an inch without interference. With the std TR8 power steering, you can't really drop it without some surgery to the engine and/or sump.

How far back to move the engine is mostly a function of whether or not you want the fresh air plenum and if you are willing to modify the fire wall. Custom headers are a given.

I have created an Autocad drawing of the subframe, with a basic engine outline (pdf attached). I am currently (in my "sparse" spare time) measuring the firewall shape and location and will update the drawing eventually.

Hope this info helps.

Martin

Hello Kevin,

Thanks for the Hotwire explanation. It makes total sense now.

I see your point regarding leaving engine where it is.

And, that's a good rule of thumb to keep in mind.

As far as the Lanocha kit goes.... I hadn't realized that they changed the price. BV8's are real nice too!

Trip



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/25/2009 02:27AM by TRip.

Martin, that CAD drawing is really sweet! You must be a 2D/3D wiz, cool!

I get your point about the power steering getting in the way and making things complicated. I definitely want to add PS. to the project so "surgery" on the motor etc. seems beyond my skills.

You mentioned dropping the engine about an inch if no PS. It really is a lot of work for little gain.

With all the honest, staright feedback in the above posts. My plan to relocate the motor has been 180'd. I realize that the time, effort and $$$ can be better invested in other more productive ways.


Martin, if you end up relocating your motor, let me know. Would be neat to see the final drawing too.

Trip

Thank you very much to all of you for taking the time to give me the straight goods on this engine relocating idea of mine. I very much appreciate the reality check.

Trip

Trip,

This link may be useful as it shows a comprehensive kit for the V8 conversion, I do not normally recommend rimmers because their parts are normall expensive but this does not look bad for a bolt in conversion.

Another company for parts was S & S conversions not sure if their still around..

[www.rimmerbros.co.uk]

Another useful link.

[www.wedgeparts.com]

Kevin.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/25/2009 04:54AM by castlesid.

It looks like the TR's put the engine in about the location I was able to get my engine for the Vega. Before I changed it the engine was just about centered over the front tires. Now it's just aft of the centerline by a couple inches. I'm of the mind that any little bit counts. That goes for weight reduction as well. A half pound here or there doesn't seem like a lot but do that a dozen times and you got 6 lbs., right?

The pinion angle is a good point. I know on my Vega the pinion angle was not good when I started my project because Buick liked to angle their engines back by like 5º. That coupled with the stock Chevy rear pinion angle and I was in for like 8º! I removed as much angle on the engine as I could get away with. That was part of the relocation as well. I'm betting that has been thought through a bit better on a car that was developed with the Rover V8 in mind. I don't know for certain though. It will be interesting to hear what these guys say about it.

Thanks Kevin,

I'm going to check the links out now.

Trip