Engine and Transmission Tech

Hey. This is my first post here.

I have searched this forum and the web, without any success. I am wondering if it is possible to shorten a 215 to 24 inches? How much is it possible to deck the block without getting into trouble and then I am not concerned about the manifold, but the block it self the way it is casted?
I am planning on putting one in my Volvo 122 and I do not want to modify the body in any way in making it possible, but the engine is so far too long and a little too wide. The width is manageable, but very, very tight for exhaust manifold, but it can be worked around with custom headers. For the length I have seen a solution with a shorten snout on the water pump, but it is not enough for me. I know the oil pump is located in the front cover, but has anyone ever relocated it, so it is possible to make the engine more compact, with eliminating the cover and make a custom one, as like the Chevrolet 350? Ignition is possible to solve with trigger wheel etc., so that is not a problem, and the water pump can be made from an electric one, making it possible to adjust location a little.
Anyone with good ideas?

OT I have found this is a very interesting forum with a lot of knowledge, as I have read a majority of all the post here

Welcome to the forum Bjorn!

If you're already okay with crank-fired ignition and electric water pumps... belt driven oil pumps should seem positively easy.

Have a good look at articles on our new sister website: www.BritishRaceCar.com - Les Gonda's and Keith Burnett's Rover V8 powered cars are using multi-stage remote oil pumps for their dry sump systems. That's probably overkill for your situation, but several of the four cylinder MG engines are using remote (belt driven) single stage pumps that should work nicely:

Johnson "HTP" oil pump


Stock Car Products "Super Flow" oil pump


RaZor Performance Products oil pump


I'm not sure who made this pump... (Please let me know if you figure it out!)

You may want to look at the transverse mount Buick V6 engines of the 1980's. They had shorter front dress and the timing covers will bolt onto the aluminum V8's. Not sure if the Rover serpentine with crank driven pump is shorter.

Dan Jones

One thing I'm doing is removing the water pump all together. That's helping. I bought a water pump from Craig Davies in Australia. I'm still using the water pump housing as a manifold, eliminating the snout completely but you could use a plate on the front cover with two inputs for the water.

I was thinking the same as Dan on the distributorless later front cover. You need to modify the crank to drive the oil pump and I'm not totally certain that you CAN use the older crank because the crank snout is shorter. Is it? Anybody else on that? Here's a link and pic of where I'm mounting my electric water pump. It can be put off to the side.

Thanks for the help and input.

The cover for the V6 I have been curious about, as I have read about it before, but I have not found any measurements on it. Will it mate up with a 300 crank at all, or is that to be hoping on too much?

The style of water pump I have in mind is something like this:
[static.summitracing.com]

I am aware there will be a lot of fabrication to make it work, but I need to figure out if it is manageable at all to do this without any mods to the shell of the car.

I found a -64 Skylark in the j-y and took the engine from it, and that is how this whole idea came up. I have now located a 4.0 in another j-y, so I have my hopes up I can make it work.

For transmission I am planning on using a M410 from a Volvo 164. Some people think it is a weak transmission, but I know someone who used a M400 in a turbo application and it survived 450 HP and the strip, so I am confident it will do.

My idea is to make it look like it came from the factory and not got butchered in the backyard. I have found some cars on the net and the first thing that strikes me is that the radiator is moved. If the radiator is not moved the firewall is cut up and modified. None of these solutions appeal to me. I guess I like to make my life miserable :).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/30/2009 12:10AM by nalle.

Quote:

I guess I like to make my life miserable :).

LOL! Welcome. You've passed the first test. LOL.

I guess you could technically eliminate the front cover completely and use a remote oil pump. Like a dry-sump oil pump. Just fabricate a cover for the timing gear, and use a crank-fired ignition of some type. Like a Ford EDIS or something like it. Does the 4.0 still have the front cover on it?

First-off, You'll find the 300" Buick you got is "wider" than 4L. Rover-greater deck height. Consider "exactly" how much shorter on front of Rover. Yes the frontdrive V6 H2O pump is shortest.If you can keep a frontdrive timing cover with dist and oil pump you'll save LOTZ o'$/grief. I used a Toyota 18R? water pump(stand alone housing). I welded the discharge port onto side of timing cover/coolant port and put alum. plate over former water pump opening. The water pump is available anywhere,(good to know on a trip).This set-up shortened the motor approx. 3.5" with minimal effort. If you feel you must have electric, consider their rated hrs. of longevity. If you get twin discharge ports like your example, Proform, etc for SBC, you have many mounting options including discharging into center core plug holes in block= better distribution than stock. Be Cool, roverman.

Art,

I don't think Bjorn has a Buick 300 engine. Sounds more like a Buick 215 stroker using a 300 crank.

Art, when discharging into the center ports wouldn't you need to open up the front transfer ports partially to keep from stagnating the front cylinder? I wonder if anyone really knows how much. Seems to me discharging into the front freeze plug ports would simplify things, using the stock circulation routing back through the block, up into the heads and forward to discharge. But it would make for a much shorter engine. Do you have a photo of that 18R water pump?

Jim

So far what I understand is the 300 has the same length as the 215, and my 300 measures 27 1/2 inches, as to compared to my B18 that is 24 inches. Unfortunately I do not have a 215 or a 4.0.... yet so I cannot confirm the numbers. I am considering using the crank from my 300 in a 215 or 4.0 if possible, even though a 215 alone would give more than enough power.

Art, I would love to see some pictures of your solution, as it shortened the engine to my magic number :). You are very right about the oil pump and distributor and I would like to keep the look, before a modern function. More important; what is your overall engine lenght?

Something funny is; where I am from (Sweden) you will commonly find Volvo B18/B20 in MGs, since speed parts are available and affordable.

As for anyone wondering; I am a Swedish meatball, lost among the bayous in Louisiana; trying to fit something American designed, but British made, into a Swedish engineered wagon from the prehistoric era, just for the fun at a red light shave off a loud mustang or two... until the drag kicks in!!!

Well, you're a wild man Bjorn. You fit right in with this bunch.

Jim

If my memory serves me, extending the key slot on a 215/early Rover crank snout will allow the '95- on Rover front cover with integral oil pump to be used. The shallowest Buick front cover, by far, comes from a FWD 3.0 (yes, 3.0) Buick V6 that was introduced in 1982.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/02/2009 09:51PM by Dave.

I measured a spare 4,6 litre block and late model front cover with integral oil pump. It measures 610 mm (about 24") from gearbox flange to thefront of the cam cover. Even this cover requires the removal of water pump. Naturally crank pulley adds some to the dimension. This conversion is not that uncommon in 122 Volvos or Amazons as they are also called in Scandinavia.

Jim, et-all, Pumping cold-side coolant into center coreplug ports= reverse coolant flow, done by Reventlow approx 47 years ago. They knew with the correct hole locations and dia's thru decks, into heads would equalize temperatures from cyl to cyl. We can only tune to the "hottest" cylinder(s). Conventional flow ,blows coolest coolant onto coolest cylinders-not optimal. With reverse flow conversion, one would indeed need to ,"reliev" deck areas at front, and center of decks.Take coolant return out of heads at all four corners, through intake manifold into junction block for best equilization. Dirt track boys runnin earlySBC's been doin this forever, as side by side exhaust ports create hotter center cylinders. Be cool, ropverman.

That sounds like it would take some experimentation to get the cooling right for the heads of the two center cylinders. Most SBB/BOPR engines block off the two rear intake water passages too, so some additional plumbing would be needed there as well. It could get messy right fast, but with the right parts should up the horsepower potential, if that's the goal. Might be justified if you're using things like forged pistons, head and main studs and such, but otherwise seems like an unnecessary complication.

Jim

Hi bjorn I live in la also. I have a v6 sunbeam. Right now I'm in Mississippi at cruisin the coast and there is an mg here with a v6 and also a guy with a v2 jalopy he made by cutting a chevy v8. It runs, he drove it in here, so I guess anything is possible. I was in Stockholm last year, does it ever get dark in the summer there?

Hi Robbie. Yes it does get dark there, but try out winter and see how you like it then ;) (dark and cold).
I wish I had something to cruise with too. I have been contemplating to visit that meet so many times now, but I miss it every time. I need to get a calender and remember to put the date in it!

What area of La are you in? Id love to see that car when its finished. I saw a video a while back from the socal tt that showed an old amazon that loked really fast in the video. Cool car.

I am in Slidell, just north of New Orleans, and this is how the car sits like right now [i228.photobucket.com] .
I am dealing with my house for the second time now due to flooding, but soon I will get done with it and can catch some speed with the 122. I just stumbled over the 300cui in the j-y and of course so was the idea instantly in my head to fit parts of it in... I am just in the first stage of brainstorming and that is how I ended up here, and I have gotten some nice ideas from here.