Engine and Transmission Tech

Kevin - yeah, I've been checking out some cams. A lot of the guys here are using the 232 which can probably be attributed to it being a favorite of Dan LaGrou - with the torque these engines already have on the bottom end, it seems the 232 is a good fit for a drivable light car by moving the curve to upper lower and mid range. I do like a decent idle and I like 'em slightly lumpy too. Wondering if performance wise it would be okay to use the 232 with stage 1 rover heads and then grow into with the T/A heads later?

Jim - any idea what the T/A heads flow will be throughout the lift range. Will the Edelbrock performer provide sufficient breathing at the top end or will they stage these heads?

Tony, I'm afraid there may be a snag. According to one report Mike Sr. (TA) has decided to charge about 3 grand for the heads. That will price them over what most of us are willing to pay I'm afraid, and my own interest in promoting them has dwindled accordingly. As for the flow, all I can say is that they are supposed to be slightly better than their V6 heads.

Jim

Jim,

Thats bad news on the price and would make them about £2450.00/$4000.00 in the UK with shipping, duty and our dreaded VAT.

That is twice the price of the Real Steel Merlin heads which includes their own rocker covers, these heads are good for 330+ BHP out the box on a 5 Litre engine with the RS Tornado cam.

Kevin.

The profile of the 232 seems a bit off for our engines. I mean the LCA is so wide at 112º. It keeps the compression up pretty high due to the valve timing and that is probably attributable to the low RPM manners. Anybody else want to chime in here? I know a lot of guys really like this grind but it seems not to optimize performance based on our rod ratios and flow characteristics.

I know that Dan Jones ran some numbers for performance and he was coming up with much tighter LCAs (like 108º) for our uses. There is a lot of trade off, of course but with the cars we're putting these engines into we can get away with sacrificing some low end torque.

I'm sure there will be arguments both ways.

Long rod engines can tolerate lower LSA's. The Ford 292 Y-block has rods that are 6.324" long and a stroke of 3.3". It typically has a cam with 110 or 108 LSA.

Long rods leave the piston near top-dead-center longer, and that mitigates the effect of valve overlap.

Short rod engines really should have wider lobe separation angles to reduce the valve overlap. Also, engines with fuel injection, or engines that are emissions tested need the wider LSA to reduce the escape of unburned fuel.

I read Dan Jones' post about cam profiles and the work that David Vizard has done. I'll have to spend a little more time to understand the research that David did. But I also know that the cam grinders usually have a pretty good handle on what works.

I notice that the Crower cam profiles like the 50228 and 50229 have more exhaust duration. I assume this is because the exhaust ports don't flow very well and the additional exhaust duration is meant to compensate for this.

It seems that the lifters for Buick/Olds/Rover V8s are the same diameter as the Chevy lifters. I know that they make mushroom lifters for Chevy engines. Dan Jones mentioned the issues with profiles and lifter diameter and suggested that mushroom lifters are an alternative. If I can't find a roller cam system that works and is reasonably priced, I think I'll look into mushroom lifters. Having better cam profiles improves low-end torque enormously.

Whoops LSA not Lower Control Arms. You can tell I've been doing a lot of suspension mods lately. LOL.

Nick,

I'd agree i have sacrified some ultimate power and Dan did recommend I looked at tighter LCA cams, but i took the view that a little less top end power was good trade off for the better drivability I get with the 112 deg LCA, the 50232 has good lift and duration and will allow the engine to rev quite freely even past the peak power and doesn't drop off sharply as some cams do.

A bonus, difficult to describe but is that the engine has a nice feel to it in that it seems to match the car nicely, my mechanic who helped me do the original conversion and does a bit of work I can no longer handle, took the car home as his workshop was full (well thats what he said) and was wildly exited about how it drove to the extent that he want's first refusal should I sell it.

If i'd been building an engine purely for a track day or drag race car I'd haver chosen a different cam and taken the heads to at least the next level.

Anyway I thought 260 BHP per ton would be quick enough for my aged abilities.

Just horses for courses.

Kevin.

Nic, no need feel-bad about "L"ooser "C"am "Arrangement", many of us been dare-dun-dat. OK., onward. About $3k. plus rocker assemblies plus covers to clear same plus intake man. to fit/work, from TA.? Almost makes the Wildcat stuff palatable, except "he" won't sell to me anymore, I was "rude". My BAD! It's consensus time. How many want roller, hyd./mech.cams and lifters for BOP.'s? Anyone checked 300/340/350 iron blocks if they ,"bleed-off "oil feed pressure using std. sbc. roller lifters? If they don't, Bingo! Just about any cam maker will produce billet rollers , with a "decent" order for a resonable price. Small base circle and lifter dias. make a roller shine in these motors. Last time I talked with "Real Steel", they had a pre-paid waiting list of 15 hopefulls and didn't want to discuss details like airflow or port velocety on their product. Back in the 60's, Buick built a prototype "Hemi", Hot Rod mag. feature. Never made production-duh. What "if", there was a resonably priced, "Hemi" head for these engines? True it wouldn't be as narrow as stocker, but not as wide as old- school designs.Shallow hemi would allow resonable chamber volume while allowing adequate size valves in a 3.7" bore. This casting would also fit, "other" motors which woul help for volume of sales. Your constructive comments are welcomed, roverman.

They seriously won't sell to you? Weird. That's a good point about the roller cam. I read somewhere on this board that the SBB shares the same lifter dia. with the SBC. Is that true? Maybe we could just use some GM rollers and have a cam ground for it?

Do you mean like spark plug through the middle of the valve cover hemi? The spark plug placement isn't bad in the stock Buick. Not great valve placement though. Having the valves opposed and centered would be nice though.

Somebody else was mentioning using lotus 4-valve heads on our engines. Interesting. Am I off topic? Maybe we should have a brainstorm thread. LOL!

Nic, et-all, Yes when you order sbb lifters for more $, their probably sbc's. .842" dia.flat tappet and small base circle all hurts the lift rates and flow," under the curve". We could have .12" larger base circle with 350 sbb. bearings, except for that nagging rod- bang- the -cam, syndrom. If someone could post, bott./top widths,(side to side), of 300 and 340 intake manifold, it would aid my research. Yes I posted on Lotus heads on our fav's. It will require (4) new cams and ,best using deck adapter plates. Mega strokes available with cam outta there. No josh'n on a "real quasi hemi", plug in middle. Not "pure" hemi because of shallow chamber. shouldn't need custom rockers. There "may" be a useable int. man. available. To be continued. roverman.

"Thats bad news on the price and would make them about £2450.00/$4000.00 in the UK with shipping, duty and our dreaded VAT.

That is twice the price of the Real Steel Merlin heads which includes their own rocker covers, these heads are good for 330+ BHP out the box on a 5 Litre engine with the RS Tornado cam.

Kevin."

So Kevin, is there any way you could determine what our price stateside would be for the Real Steel heads? Also are flow rates available? I would like very much to get enough information to make a realistic comparison to the TA heads for an application such as a SBB iron block street motor like a 340 or 350. TA's price out the door is yet to be set in stone and there is yet a small window where they might be influenced.

Jim

Jim,

There cheaper than I thought, £1225.00 retail in the UK deduct the VAT for export = net £1065.00/$1757.00 add shipping and taxes your end, probably around $2000 which is value.

I think the heads require a specific stud kit and i'm still curious about the inlet port shape, seems odd with the cut off corner.

Heres R S price list which includes the dyno test for the 5 litre engine with the Merlin Heads.

Supply of the heads only recently commenced and they had a longish waiting list.

[www.realsteel.co.uk]

Kevin

HOLY VAT! I'm gonna stop complaining about my property tax. I had discounted these heads way back because I figured the cost was too much. I think at the time the £ was trading at $2ish. I had no idea the VAT was deducted. Why wouldn't it be. Duh.

I've always liked the look of those heads. Nice combustion chamber shape.

Yeah, real ugly valve covers though from a shot Greg put up on the V8Buick board. Surprising since the engine they show on their home page has such nice ones. We really need port flow numbers though and chamber volume would be good too.

Jim

"According to one report Mike Sr. (TA) has decided to charge about 3 grand for the heads."

Disappointing - like throwing cold water on a male dog in heat in the middle of an SPCA homecoming parade :(

Merlin heads, out of box making 330 hp. w. 5L and Tornado cam? Flat hydraulic? Interesting, because TA-Mike Jr. just posted,"from a customer with personal experience", "Nobody uses the Merlin heads because they only flow 140 cfm.". Wer'e to believe the TA head will flow approx 300 cfm. in a 3.7" bore? I need to build a" Pro Stock" car suitable for the TA heads. It's getting tough to separate myth from malace, roverman.

And the latest:

"The ports come cast "small" and are opened up by either us machining them in the CNCs or by porting so the heads from us wont have the huge ports opened up, its that they have the ability to be as big as a V6 port (but flow more from the changed valve angle)."

So for your 3 grand you get as cast "small" ports? Such a deal! I'm sorry but for our purposes it looks like the Merlin is a better deal. 330hp is PLENTY of power in an MGB.

Jim

Jim,

Don't know where TA got the flow information, as to date Real steel have only recently delivered a few sets of heads and unless one of those buyers had the heads flow tested and then passed on the information can't see how they would know.

Anyway 140cfm looks to be very conservative given the dyno figures, the cam is not extreme as can be seen by the torque curve and should be comfortable to drive on the road.

I'm not sticking up for the Merlins because their British, I'm more disappointed that TA are not producing a cost effective and competitive product as we had hoped.

Kevin.

Art,

Tornado Hydraulic cam.

BYAJG120 Tornado Camshaft Price:£131.65
Used with our “5litre” Stroker kit, and our Merlin F85 cylinder heads, we obtained 337bhp at 5500rpm, and 352ft lbs of torque at 4500rpm.
The torque curve is quite flat, & the engine pulled like a train. Installation: use DW550 valve springs and DW520 retainers, spring seat
machining may be required. Machine valve guides as per instructions, use AZ1005 adjustable pushrods or AZ500 fixed pushrods to set
lifter preload. All preload setting info supplied with each camshaft.
Rpm Range Duration@ .050" Lift-1.60 Rockers
1800-6500rpm In.224deg Ex.231deg In; .508"Ex; .512" 110 degrees Lob seperation angle.

Kevin.

Kevin, Thanks for reply. Might be interesting to try a hyd. roller and possibly roller rockers to free-up the valve train. I wish there was an "Engine Masters" challenge for the Rover, using ALL thats available. Perhaps reduce some of the mis-information out there. roverman.