Engine and Transmission Tech

Hello All,
I am new here but not new to the British car or V8 worlds.

I grew up around my Father's automotive shop which specialized in British cars, turning wrenches for him on occasion.
My best friend growing up was into american V8s so I also spent many days working with him on his cars.

I bought my TR8 about 10 years ago and instantly started planning upgrades, including a more powerful engine.

I poured through all of the UK tuners websides, bought and read both David Hardcastle books right away, and then the Des Hammel book after it came out in 2005.

I am finally at the point where I am making my dream of building up a big rover V8 a reality but need some input. I seem to have consumed too much info and while anything seems possible, need input on what is practical.

Here is what I am currently have:

complete running 1996 4.6L engine assembly with no leaking liners.

complete 1964 buick 300 heads

Here is my plan:

reliner block with tophat liners which will allow for at least a 96mm bore.
The local shop that puts tophat liners in rovers wants $3000+ for this, I have talked to D&D but they were cagey as to how much bore I can go. I do not want to spend $1500+ for tophat liners and not get any significant displacement out of the job. Anywhere else besides D&D can do this job for less than $2000? Also, V8 developments in the UK says they can go all the way up to 97mm, any thoughts on this?

port/polish 300 heads and fit larger valves, at least 1.7 intake and 1.5 exhaust.
How big can I go on the valves in this head? I am willing to have new seats installed. Suggestions on exact valve setups others have used would be nice.

Assuming I can get at least 96mm bore I want to keep the stock 4.6 stroke and reuse the stock crank & rods with new rod bolts (does ARP make bolts for the 4.6 rods? if so what part #?)

For pistons I would like to go forged but other than that I assumed I would get a set custom made. I know that off-the shelf would be cheaper so if anyone knows of any off-the shelf pistons that would work with the above setup please let me know.

I was planning on getting a Cloyes true roller timing setup. Anyone have thoughts on their street roller set VS Orig true roller set?

ARP head stud kit seems like a must.

For valvetrain I want to stay hydraulic. My intent for this engine is street use with occasional track days. I want a free reving engine that will pull to a solid 6K. That said my thoughts were:
stock valvetrain with outrigger posts and possibly roller tip rockers such as the ones sold by TSI automotive for $425.

I have not decided on a cam but given my goals, my thoughts were to get a fairly radical cam and tame it down with Rhoads lifters. Cam suggestions and valve spring suggestions would be appreciated.

Fuel delivery will be via Megasquirt and Ford EDIS.
I am currently fabricating a one per-cylinder throttle body setup to bolt on top of the stock 4.6 EFI intake using individual 1.5" diameter throttle boddies.

Thoughts and suggestions welcome, especially specific part combinations that work.

Thanks,

Robert

Two bits of info I forgot to add:

1. Maybe it's not realistic but I was shooting for at least 300 RWHP

2. I want to be able to run on premium pump gas, what is the maximum compression I can run?

Robert,

Difficult to achieve what you want without going to a longer stroke.

Real steel in the UK do a 5.0 litre stroker kit which includes forged pistons which will fit into a 4.6 block witjh only a little relieving of the block required.

They sell this for a very reasonable £1626.00 inc VAT so for export it should be £1414.00 + shipping and taxes at your end.

[www.realsteel.co.uk]

Real Steel are also now producing the Merlin Heads as listed and with the dyno read out for when mounted on the 5.0 engine.

As an afterthought, with the Buick 300 heads which I have on my 4.35 engine, you will need a flat top piston to achieve a decent compression ratio.

This recent post from Dan Jones on the subject of the Merlin and Buick 300 Heads shoul be of help.

[forum.britishv8.org]

Kevin.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/21/2009 08:06PM by castlesid.

Robert, Welcome aboard. Whats your "total" budget for engine build? Auto,5spd or 6 spd.? Completed vehicle weight? My sugestion is to read every post here about Rover/Buick builds. May want to peep V8 Buick site for sbb's. Here will you find data not covered in the "books". Regarding re-sleeving your block for $3K-pass. You "mite" buy a Wildcat block for that or for a fraction , a new Coscast block, (demand a sonic report). I'm assuming you have a "pink", paint code block with thicker alum. around sleeves? Pressure Check is cheep,relatively ,and a good basic test for cracks in water jackets.If I had a pink block that passed, I mite have it sonic checked,$80., with sleeves in place, yes sounds weird but I had it done. They must "calibrate" the meter on similar sleeve/alum. of "known" thickness, say caliper thickness at "dogbone" on deck? If your destined to re-sleeve, find a shop that specializes in or does a lot.They'll be much less and "probably better". Watch there procedure. Suggest using, "Loctite Sleeve Retainer"-anerobic sealer/locker made for this. If they look like Chipanzees with baseball bats....If you decide to keep your sleeves, you could o-ring the deck for cheep insurance. Isky Cams rents the tool and the copper wire prob. about $5-$10.If you go roller rockers,sugest 1.6/1 ratio= easier to get lift with these little base circle cams. We don't have the final numbers-yet, but looks like the "Merlin " head should beat the "worked 300" on bang-per-$. TA's for under $3k? If you "ditch" the Rover rods, you could off-set grind the crank to 3.4" stroke,$250., and use sbc rods, a bargain, and say sbc 305" pistons? Good Luck on your research, roverman.

One option to do the 3.78" bore would be to pack in the 96mm liners. Then you could use some of the Ford 2.3 "truck" pistons with a 1.33" compression height. Then use some Eagle 6" Chevy rods. 2.1" journal. That leaves the piston a mere 15 thou below deck. Less after you deck for the liners.

Leave the sleeves a couple thou above deck for better cylinder sealing. Relatively inexpensive set of rods and pistons. There is really no need to go forged on the pistons for a street machine IMO if you don't need custom sizes. The Ford "truck" pistons are Hypereutectic.

Rods: $200
[www.flatlanderracing.com]


Pistons: $190 (two sets of 4)
[www.summitracing.com]

Based on my recent sessions on rolling road or chassis dyno to US people I´d say that if you aim at 300 rwp you might have to spend some cash. You would need really good flowing heads and usually this comes at highish revs so you also need sturdy short motor -> more cash. Having said that, I don´t know your budget but simply replacing that 3,5 with std size 4,6 litre engine makes a huge difference. With good Rover heads and nice cam you will be close to 300 hp at flywheel and TR7 being a light car this equals to 4 sec 0-60 sprints and low 13s at strip.

As for the block, most specialists in UK seem to feel that factory hardware is good enough. Mains being crossbolted and rods having cap head bolts. I reused the on my engine but fitted ARP head studs. I reused also factory rods, crank and pistons so my short motor is simply a used short motor. I´ll send you a PM later, I am planning to have a TR7 convertible for the next project.

Heads are definitely where you should focus your money. That's why I was suggesting going with the very common Chevy/Ford parts. Higher quality for less.

If it was me I'd consider the offset grind on the crank. For the money stroke makes the biggest difference in displacement. If you just keep it under control, Don't be like me! LOL. Something like what Art is thinking for his Rotus Brossom engine, 3.3in. stroke combined with your 3.78" bore and you end up at 296ci.

Why not find a 300 engine, alloy intake, flywheel and bellhousing. Punch it + .030 for 5 liters and with a lot less effort and money get 300+ BHP at the rear wheels.You're looking at < 80 lbs difference in weight.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/22/2009 11:38AM by Dave.

Now Dave.....that's WAY to easy and makes to much sense!

OK then, use the 300 and put the 350 crank in it. More trouble and expense, but more displacement too. About 5.6L I think?

Jim

ok, Thanks for all the responses!

I guess I should clairify a few things:

1. no $ for new heads, so it's either the 300 or 4.6 rover heads with work done on them.

2. I am definitely going with the 4.6 block, so a SBB is out of the question.

3. stroking is only an option if it will not hinder my goal of building a free reving motor that will pull solidly to 6k

I also was really hoping to get some concrete answers to the following questions from my orig post above:

Are there other shops besides D&D that can install 96mm bore tophat liners for less than $2000?

V8 developments in the UK says they can go all the way up to 97mm bore, any thoughts on this?

How big can I go on the valves in the 300 head?

Opinions on Cloyes street roller set VS Orig true roller set?

Thanks!

Robert

There's not a thimble full of difference between good quality timing sets. They are chump change with $$$ you seem ready to spend.

You seem dead set to spend $10,000 on a 300 HP engine when you don't need to. Go for it and good luck.

ok, this is not the first time I have gotten this reaction so I have to ask, what am I going to be doing that costs so much $?

If I was buying a wildcat 4" bore block and their top of the line heads I could see that, but even the MOST expensive 4.6 based UK tuner long motors barely touch $10,000.

I've already got the 4.6 engine and 300 heads so lets run this down here:

tophat liner job: $2k

Cloyes true roller $112

ARP head stud kit $128

TSI roller tip rocker set $425

Rhoads lifters $176

D&D outrigger posts $200

Cam est $160

valves/springs/retainers est$400

Pistons est$500

Total = $4101

Even if I stroke it (new rods + crank grind) and have bigger valve seats put in that's a far cry from $10K

-Robert

Indeed. I've spent about $6700 on my engine with some major modifications:

The whole engine is balanced. The parts are blueprinted to eachother. The connecting rod beams are shaved and deburred by my machine shop. The pistons are Ford 255 60 over with custom valve reliefs and cut for Chevy pins. The block is sleeved with Westwood flanged liners (3.7) bored 40 over. I had the cam bearings indexed and new smaller oil holes drilled.

The heads are '64 300 with Stage I v6 valves. 1.73 int. 1.5 ex. TA springs. Hand ported by my machine shop. TA solid lifters with oil holes on the lobe. Erson custom cam. New rocker shafts. D&D shaft gussets. Harland Sharpe 1.6 roller rockers. Comp Cams HiTech 5/16" rods.

I should make more than 300 hp. We'll see. Maybe it'll just blow up. LOL. I could have gotten better pistons and rods and still have some to spare before I get to 10K.

I bought my liners from UK when the exchange was at 1.6 something. They cost about $600 or so. Now the exchange rate is at 1.49. Good time to buy. Then I had my local machine shop press'em in. They happen to have experience with pressing sleeves in aluminum blocks already. That cost about $500. Total roughly $1100.

Going larger on the bore for the sleeves is a gamble but starting with a 4.6 vs. a 4.0 is beneficial. It's up to you. I think it's a cool idea but there is some risk involved. I'd do it but I've sorta got a devil may care attitude about this type of thing. Makes life worth living! The lure of larger displacement is especially compelling to me. I figure it probably is for you too. Some mountains just need climbin'. You feel me?

On the issue of free reving… hmm. Seems a bit relative. The limiting factors for strong high RPM with these engines is in the valvetrain. The shafts will tend to break, hence the D&D shaft gussets. I don't think this is what you are talking about though. You're talking about throttle response perhaps? Some functions that may contribute to what you are looking for is a well balanced rotating assembly. You could lighten the flywheel. Maintaining a decent rod ratio around 1.7ish. I just don't have enough experience with these engines to speak to the feel you are looking for while advocating increased stroke. Someone that my give you another point of view on this is Woody at the WedgeShop. Good guy. Lot's of experience with our engines.

The stage 1 V6 valves are a pretty tight fit. I mean it's close. You might be able to get away with another 20 thou. 1.75 and 1.5 in.

I'll vote for the true roller set...

It's all relative of course, but I think the point David was making is not that you'll be spending 10K exactly, but that you can get to your target for a lot less with a slightly different approach. You want 300hp-NA and a 6 grand redline. There are several ways to get there but the cheapest is increased displacement and the cheapest displacement increase is to start with the largest stock bore and stroke. The 4.6 isn't a bad starting point, but there does come a time when it makes good sense to trade weight for power. You seem set on using the block you have. You also seem set on sleeving it. That is a considerably bigger expense than moving up to a bigger block. Plus your rod ratio will not favor a free revving engine as much as the one of the bigger block would. So you are fighting an uphill battle on three fronts, displacement, cost, and rod ratio. You can still get there that way, but as David pointed out, for a true 300hp output don't expect to get there on a budget. BTW, if you take Nic's $6700 and add the TA heads you do hit that $10K figure so it's not that out of line.

Jim

Well put, Jim. The TA head crack is pretty funny even though it was meant to support the 10K argument. LOL! I also neglected to mention that number also includes a Harcourt intake from S. Australia I stayed up until 1 am to purchase for $290 shipped. Ha ha ha. And the Holley 650 double pumper with Adjust-a-Jet blocks. I think you get my point though. And Jim's point and Dave's hyperbole is valid as well. The budget piles up pretty quick.

I actually started out my above post thinking I was going to suggest sticking with the stock bottom end with a piston upgrade for better CR then spend all your money on the top side. The bulk of my engine expenses went to custom machine work. A big share of that was in the block. It is still necessary to prep the block separate from the sleeving expense. The rest went to the heads, mostly. The heads make up probably $2500 if not more. I'm not looking at my cost sheet right now but I spent a lot on the heads. That's where the power is so that's where the money went.

Some blocks need the flanged liners either way. In my case I had a 4.0 block to start with. I'm not sure if it is cracked behind the liners but the probability is high so I moved to flanged sleeving because it was necessary. I briefly considered moving to the larger 96mm liners but I figured I was already in the margin on the 4.0 block so I changed my mind. The 96mm liners are more expensive too by a few hondo so that factored in.

It sounds like you have a solid bottom end. You could start with that and a piston swap. Keep the cost low there. The stock short block is good. Then focus your capital on the top end. Solid induction, heads, and functional headers will go a long way toward getting to your NA 300hp goal. Shoot for 275hp. That's a lot in a 2700 lb. car. I regularly take out my 2850 lbs. SRT4 with 245hp for high speed track days, and it's a total blast! Granted the turbo does afford me a pretty wide powerband but I still do pretty well against totally prepped BMWs in the long straight. FUN!

OK you asked for input/opinions and you got'em. All practicality aside, the real question is this: Is this just something you have to do? I'm not trying to get all philosophical on you… well, yeah I am, but somethings are just about doing something regardless of logic. If I started my project with practicality in mind then I would not have started with a Chevy Vega. This whole hobby is a waste of money. I set out to build my engine using parts from many engines just to see if I could do it. I took a long time to do it to facilitate the expense. The journey has been very satisfying and worth every penny. If that is what this project is for you then do it!

I will close by saying one of the criteria for my engine build was to build it as tight on budget as possible while not sacrificing quality. That number is a slim as I could make it, and it went a LONG way. I had a LOT of custom work done for that number. I saved the money waiting for deals to come my way on the parts. I didn't include the additional $1300 in mistakes and plan changes I made to get there. I recouped a bunch of that by selling the parts I amassed but I couldn't make up for about $600 in wasted machining costs because I changed my mind. I'm ok with it because it was about the climb. You feel me?

.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/23/2009 02:12PM by castlesid.

Robert,

Lots of good advice above, With the the 4.6 it's fairly easy to get to around 280 flywheel BHP after that it gets progressively and rapidly more expensive. For 280BHP you need stage 3 heads a cam thats drivable on the road a ported Edelbrock performer manifold and an Edelbrock 500 carb and with a rev limit around 6K you can get away with the standard rocker gear but end support brackets for the shafts would be advisable.

I would just have the 4.6 block pressure tested and if ok,run it as is. you will be running it at a lower temperature than the Range Rover spec which is partly what causes the problem

Your Buick 300 heads with the valves you already have and some decent port work to the throats and bowl areas should flow roughly the equivalent of stage 3 Rover heads as they already have much larger port runners.

The problem with the 300 heads is the large 54cc. chambers so this will need to be reduced down to approx 47cc and with a flat top piston you can get to around 9.75/1 comp ratio.

This is where it starts to get tricky as with the standard bore size you are into custom pistons and possibly rods unless you use the combo I suggested on another thread, and that is to use the modular ford 4.6 big bore piston and a set of bushed 4.0 rods which should work out to be quite economic.

Factor in the cost of a full balance a flywheel and decent clutch.

For over 300 BHP you will need to take the heads to the next stage and improve the induction system either with a fully ported EFI manifold trumpet base and plenum with the throttle body increased to 71mm. approx £600 .00 in the UK and a megasquirt ECU .or proper throttle bodies

Also factor in all new bearings including the cam bearings, gasket set, a decent set of chrome moly push rods and add a sum for machining work to the heads, possibly the decks the rocker pillars to correct valve gear geometry, the valve guides, valve reliefs in the pistons, it all adds up!

My 4.35 engine built on a 3.9 block with KB chevy 305 pistons,chevy rods and a 4.2 crank, Buick 300 heads to the above spec came out around £3250.00 say $5250.00 and I had all the other parts to make it run.

not familiar with the TSI rockers but they do sound very cheap do they actually fit the rover engine?

Hope thats a help.

Pistons from here

[cgi.ebay.com]

Kevin.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/23/2009 02:17PM by castlesid.

Now, the other side of the story. You said a SBB was out of the question but gave no reason so we must make assumptions about that. If because you already have the 4.6 short block, I know where you can probably pick up a 300 reman short block for somewhere around $400. Recover the $100 or more your 4.6 is worth, slap on your 300 heads, good valve springs, a decent cam, induction and exhaust. and you're going to be right at your 300 hp/ 6000 rpm goal for very little money, certainly under 2 grand at worst and conceivably less than 1 grand, depending on the deals you can find and the parts you already have. True you pick up 80 lbs but NOT ONE of the guys who has done it has made even the first complaint. That has to tell you something.

Jim

Technically, he needs another 10hp for the extra weight so let's call it 310hp.

Since I've recently weighted my stroker engine and came up with 280 lbs., less the starter and headers. Even if I add 20 lbs. for that, I'm still at 300 lbs. dry. So swap out the block with a 300 and you got 380 lbs. That's pretty frickin' awesome!

I'm still trying to figure out how my engine weighs less than it should. I'll handle that in my other thread though.

So the question is, Jim, will it rev "freely" though? It's got the rod ratio, that's for sure. The crank is externally balanced. That's a drawback. You run one of these, right?