Engine and Transmission Tech

By-the-way, I started getting some lifters today, the V6 type. They look like they'll work fine. I also recently got some Chevy V8 hardware. The 'dog-bones' will work, but I'll be going to the boneyard to find some Buick V6 spiders. The Chevy spider isn't going to fit.

I don't think the Chevy dogbones will work with the Buick spiders. They might fit the lifter spacing but, the Buick ones stick out more in the valley. Narrower spider. If you look at the pictures you will see what I mean.You better pick up the Buick dogbones when you get your spiders. Also don't be tempted to try the Buick lifters as they are too long like the Chevy V8 lifters. Looks to me you would use the front 4 part and the back 4 part of 2 spiders. Remember to move the bolt holes in a bit to avoid the oil gallery. I would stagger 2 more bolts where the 2 halves overlap. Now I'm going to have to find a 215 or Rover to bore and stroke and convert to rollers! I'm thinking 3.78 bore(4.8/5.3 LS liners) with 300 Buick crank and heads.Has anyone done a main bearing stud girdle like the Ford.



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 12/18/2009 11:36PM by mgb260.

Have you guys checked with Delta cams for regrinds. They do one for the 4.9 Cadillac aluminum V8 based on the Ford E303 roller for the Fiero guys. I'm thinking the popular Crower 50232 specs but with the roller ramps like the Ford with stock base circle for the shorter V6 rollers. The smaller base circle used with the longer V8 roller lifters in the retro cams flex and are unstable at high RPMs.Delta spray welds to build up the lobes and induction harden similar to what GM did for it's unleaded valve seats.The factory hydraulic roller cams are hardened iron anyway,not billet steel like the aftermarket.(which normally require a special distributor gear also)



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 12/20/2009 03:02PM by mgb260.

I don't know if this will work but when Paul goes to get his Buick spiders he should try and check out a 4.5/4.9 Cadillac V8 spider.It is shorter and narrower than SBC V8. Maybe we will get lucky! The lifters are the long Chevy V8 style, or Ford 302 NOT the dogbones.Here are pics of the spiders:





Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/20/2009 01:37AM by mgb260.

Jim, if I understand your previous post correctly, your suggesting having Delta, spray- weld the Rover cam to use as a roller? We know it is a, lump of iron, right ? What years of the Cad used hyd. rollers? Thanks, roverman.

88-93 4.5/4.9 Caddy had the longer Chevy V8 rollers. Give Delta a call at 800-562-5500. Their website shows the process. I live about 2 hours away, they are in Tacoma,WA.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/20/2009 01:23PM by mgb260.

I forgot about the open area over the cam in these engines. I would use a piece of channel full length over the cam for the spider to bolt to.

Jim, How will you attach the channel to the block and get it, below the spider?

Bend a tab up on both ends and drill and tap block. The channel would have the pattern of the spider with flanged nuts welded on. That's if the Caddy or Ford spider will work.The 2 piece Buick V6 idea I would add crossbars for the spider pattern.It would be a little more complicated.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/20/2009 05:46PM by mgb260.

The Ford 5.0 spider can be made to work. Flipped upside-down it's close enough. However, some trimming and some creative rebending will be required. The spacing is just a touch too wide, so the end hold-downs might need to be trimmed.

As far as holding it in place, my Olds block has two ears in the middle of the lifter valley that can be drilled without compromising the strength of the block. And the end pairs of lifter bores have a cross-bar that can be clamped onto.

Excellent Paul! I told you,you would be first with a solution.

Good job, Paul. That spyder looks like it will work. I'm thinking 1 long, alum. bar , turned to approx. 312"dia x .25 long,1 end and 5/16-18 bolt other end, with head cut-off to use unthreaded portion to lock inside of bolt towers(2), your describing 1 hole each, wouldn't need threading. Insert hold-down bar. Unscrew bolt till assembly is tight and lock jam nut. This bar would have corresponding threaded holes over each Ford hold down hole. Bolt size same as holes. Jam nuts below bar ,on bolts would apply preload onto spyder. Things are coming together here. Rollin On A Riv'.....for Christmas? roverman.

Take notice, the pads on that upside down spider are formed to allow a certain amount of "spring" from the metal holding the dogbones. Flipping it upside down that way might work, or it might be rigid enough that it causes problems like cracking or noise. I take it the spider is formed of spring steel and the rib extends out to the bend? So what happens if one breaks?

Jim

I think Paul bent them up to clear the block. I would cut the pads off where the ribs end. The retaining bolts would give enough tension to hold down the dogbones. The spider just keeps the dogbones in place to stop the lifters from turning. You might have to touch it up with a dremel to narrow it between the lifters so they don't rub. You might be able to pin clevis's where the ribs are on the block with studs and nuts. The hole in the picture looks to be right over one ,I don't know about the other end.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 12/21/2009 02:33AM by mgb260.

Jim Blackwood is right about the metal being spring metal. I'll try my hand at re-bending the springy tabs to hold down some lifters. They might not survive the bending, but I did try un-bending one of the tabs just to see how tough the spring metal would be. My conclusion is that it might work, but, again, it's spring metal and giving it the radical 360 flip bend might fatigue the metal too much.

I'll give you all more information soon as I try my hand at metal bending.

Art, I've been pondering what the best solution would be to make it as simple, easy to repeat, inexpensive, and reliable. My best thoughts are something similar to what you are proposing. In the end, it will look like a gypsy rig, but it should be reliable.

Is anybody going to call that shop in Tacoma tomorrow? I'm going to call unless someone beats me to it and posts an estimate for the price of a reworked camshaft. I'm hoping it will be less than $300.

I'm also going to cruise by the boneyards in the coming week to scrounge some Buick V6 spiders. That might be a better solution (cutting and splicing two V6 spiders).

I took a couple more shots of the spider for reference.

This shot might show the tweak I put on one of the pads to see how easily it bent.



Closeup of the pad.



This shot shows the ears that stick up in the middle of the valley.



Although I have successfully jimmied stuff, I'm thinking a machinist like Jim Blackwood or Art might know better what the optimum solution is. I'll continue to do some legwork, but I'm listening to the real experts here.

Spring steel can be funny stuff. Sometimes you can bend it, sometimes the only way is by heating it. When you heat it, sometimes it loses it's temper and sometimes it does not. (certain grades are "air hardening") Watch for any sort of stress lines inside the bend as you are straightening it out, as that is where the cracks form that will cause it to break. You may be able to just heat it a little in the bend, with a propane torch for instance, and soften it just enough to bend without breaking and not lose a lot of strength, or it may just have to be annealed.

Jim

Jim, if I do heat it, can I do something like quench it to restore some of its toughness?

Paul, It looks like on the Ford spyder, there is room underneath for holdown bar? Perhaps there is enough material in those two "ears" in middle of valley to drill/tap for additional stability? It looks to me like much of the "spring" is available in the "legs"? Overall, the Buick V6 spyder(s), may require less work? Regarding "spray welded", cast iron, flat tappet cams, I'll wait for proven durability. If I can buy 8620, billet cams for 250-$300, the decision will be an easy one. I'll be performing torsional/deg.deflection test on 8620 billet vs. oem. Rover and that, out-there thing-Nic.roverman.

Make the cam out of aluminum.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/21/2009 11:34AM by NixVegaGT.

I called Delta. No dice.

Art, yes, there is room underneath for a hold-down bar. Yup, the legs will provide lots of spring. They do have a stiffening rib pressed into them.

I'm thinking that I'll go get some Buick spiders, cut off the very end pair of legs so that I leave a lot of the middle rib to overlap the two parts. Then I'll take the cut-off legs and try my little Lincoln WedPak welder on them to see if I can possibly weld the spring steel parts together.