BritishV8 Forum: Flanged liner options

slow_M
Bernard Holzberg

(59 posts)

Registered:
07/18/2008 11:12AM

Main British Car:
1975 TVR M series Ford 331

Re: Flanged liner options

Posted by: slow_M
Date: January 20, 2010 01:44AM

Also LA sleeve.
A set of theirs in my Moto Guzzi with VW Mahle pistons.
B.

NixVegaGT
Nicolas Wiederhold
Minneapolis, MN
(659 posts)

Registered:
10/16/2007 05:30AM

Main British Car:
'73 Vega GT 4.9L Rover/Buick Stroker

authors avatar

Re: Flanged liner options

Posted by: NixVegaGT
Date: January 20, 2010 08:00AM

I'm still waiting on the blocks to show up. Can't wait to start cutting. We'll see what happens. I'm feeling like Jim right about now just waiting for the damn things to get here.

I'm gonna be in LA in March. I'll see if I can tour the facility.

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/20/2010 08:21AM by NixVegaGT.

roverman
Art Gertz
Winchester, CA.
(3188 posts)

Registered:
04/24/2009 11:02AM

Main British Car:
74' Jensen Healy, 79 Huff. GT 1, 74 MGB Lotus 907,2L

Re: Flanged liner options/ piano wire?

Posted by: roverman
Date: January 21, 2010 08:08PM

Yes thanks Jim, I was also considering plugging ends of wire into "complimentary" holes in the sleeve prior to brazing/silver soldering.? Speaking of "heli brazing"...segway, Nic and I are considering for retention of "processed" alum sleeves in block. We hope you have some wisdom to share ? 2010-make hp. within. roverman.

BlownMGB-V8
Jim Blackwood
9406 Gunpowder Rd., Florence, KY 41042
(6469 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 12:59PM

Main British Car:
1971 MGB Blown,Injected,Intercooled Buick 340/AA80E/JagIRS

authors avatar

Re: Flanged liner options

Posted by: BlownMGB-V8
Date: January 21, 2010 10:57PM

Probably silver soldering is a better choice, since elevating the temp of the wire anneals it, but once it wraps the cylinder a time or two there will be minimal tension on the end. I'd braze the top end first and then wrap with tension and then clamp and braze the bottom, thereby pre-stressing the winding a bit. As for joining the block and alloy sleeves, that could be soldered. It would have to be done in an inert atmosphere oven under tightly controlled conditions but would give better control of the joint with minimal clean-up and would be as strong as a cast single piece. (The tubes would be stronger.)

Jim

NixVegaGT
Nicolas Wiederhold
Minneapolis, MN
(659 posts)

Registered:
10/16/2007 05:30AM

Main British Car:
'73 Vega GT 4.9L Rover/Buick Stroker

authors avatar

Re: Flanged liner options

Posted by: NixVegaGT
Date: January 22, 2010 11:52AM

Jim N., Who makes that New Holland liner? That could work with the welded in T6 bore. I was reading that Hot Rod article Wesley posted and got some ideas. The Manley new Hemi flat top pistons have a 1.2" compression height. Those coupled with the 6" honda rod and an offset ground 4.6 crank with 3.5" stroke puts the piston 10 thou down the hole, and enough metal for valve reliefs. SWEET!

mgb260
Jim Nichols
Sequim,WA
(2463 posts)

Registered:
02/29/2008 08:29PM

Main British Car:
1973 MGB roadster 260 Ford V8

Re: Flanged liner options

Posted by: mgb260
Date: January 22, 2010 11:05PM

Nic, pic is from Alexander's Tractor parts also available at Yesterday's Tractor. Ford New Holland model 800 gas or diesel. 4.1 O.D. 3.9 I.D. $29 something each.

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/23/2010 01:18AM by mgb260.

NixVegaGT
Nicolas Wiederhold
Minneapolis, MN
(659 posts)

Registered:
10/16/2007 05:30AM

Main British Car:
'73 Vega GT 4.9L Rover/Buick Stroker

authors avatar

Re: Flanged liner options

Posted by: NixVegaGT
Date: January 23, 2010 09:03AM

Perfect. Thanks Jim.

[www.alexanderstractorparts.com]

roverman
Art Gertz
Winchester, CA.
(3188 posts)

Registered:
04/24/2009 11:02AM

Main British Car:
74' Jensen Healy, 79 Huff. GT 1, 74 MGB Lotus 907,2L

Re: Flanged liner options

Posted by: roverman
Date: January 23, 2010 07:21PM

Thats great, but do they sell piianno wiar ? Feel the tension.

87gn@tahoe
Wesley Harcourt

(9 posts)

Registered:
01/21/2010 11:48PM

Main British Car:

Re: Flanged liner options

Posted by: 87gn@tahoe
Date: January 23, 2010 07:41PM

Funny you guys should mention piano wire for cylinder wall strengthening... The Stanley Steam Car company built their firetube boilers with thin outer shells that were wrapped very tightly in piano wire (I forget what gauge). The practice made for a very strong (600 PSI working pressure) and "light" boiler.

To put that in a bit of perspective; 1gallon of water at 10PSI steam pressure is said to have the explosive capacity of about 1/2 stick of dynamite. The Stanley 30hp boilers hold about 5 gallons or more at regular operating level...

Of course, the piano wire wrapping is no longer acceptible for new boilers.. The ASME would never endorse that practice.

BlownMGB-V8
Jim Blackwood
9406 Gunpowder Rd., Florence, KY 41042
(6469 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 12:59PM

Main British Car:
1971 MGB Blown,Injected,Intercooled Buick 340/AA80E/JagIRS

authors avatar

Re: Flanged liner options

Posted by: BlownMGB-V8
Date: January 24, 2010 01:00AM

OK, how about this for a high tech approach. We start with thin wall chrome-moly tubing and have it plasma coated on the inside to form an iron/nickel alloy liner and then heat treat it for maximum strength. Use those the same way you'd use any cast iron liners but much stronger.

Jim

NixVegaGT
Nicolas Wiederhold
Minneapolis, MN
(659 posts)

Registered:
10/16/2007 05:30AM

Main British Car:
'73 Vega GT 4.9L Rover/Buick Stroker

authors avatar

Re: Flanged liner options

Posted by: NixVegaGT
Date: January 24, 2010 09:35AM

Whoa. That's pretty cool. Sorta like a Nickel silicone coating on the aluminum. I bet it could be pretty thin too. Huh...

BlownMGB-V8
Jim Blackwood
9406 Gunpowder Rd., Florence, KY 41042
(6469 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 12:59PM

Main British Car:
1971 MGB Blown,Injected,Intercooled Buick 340/AA80E/JagIRS

authors avatar

Re: Flanged liner options

Posted by: BlownMGB-V8
Date: January 24, 2010 11:44AM

Yes, and if you apply the right coatings at the top and bottom it could be oven brazed (or soldered) into the aluminum block as well. Could do Art's cam journal plugs at the same time.

Jim

roverman
Art Gertz
Winchester, CA.
(3188 posts)

Registered:
04/24/2009 11:02AM

Main British Car:
74' Jensen Healy, 79 Huff. GT 1, 74 MGB Lotus 907,2L

Re: Flanged liner options/oven brazed?

Posted by: roverman
Date: January 24, 2010 09:56PM

Jim, When you say "oven brazed", same as say "heli-brazing"? Requires an inert atmosphere? Minimum temp required ? What kind of tensile strength available? We're tryin to bypass tig., if possible. Thanks,roverman.

BlownMGB-V8
Jim Blackwood
9406 Gunpowder Rd., Florence, KY 41042
(6469 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 12:59PM

Main British Car:
1971 MGB Blown,Injected,Intercooled Buick 340/AA80E/JagIRS

authors avatar

Re: Flanged liner options

Posted by: BlownMGB-V8
Date: January 24, 2010 11:22PM

Correct Art, brazed (or soldered) in an inert gas oven. Very common industrial process. Used extensively in alloy radiator manufacture, anyone who has the equipment is well versed in the process.

Jim

roverman
Art Gertz
Winchester, CA.
(3188 posts)

Registered:
04/24/2009 11:02AM

Main British Car:
74' Jensen Healy, 79 Huff. GT 1, 74 MGB Lotus 907,2L

Re: Flanged liner options/hi tech&tork-tractor?

Posted by: roverman
Date: February 05, 2010 02:44PM

This just-in..."The Green Acres Special", tractor pulled by lead dog-"Rover" ,has all the locals torked outta shape! Dimentionally speaking- it wasn't easy, fitting a 3.908" bore, a 4.100" od., a 4.242" flange dia.x.183" thick and a 6and15/16" height, kinda tuff ,on Rover, since he started life as a 3.5" pup. He be the Big dog now ! But wait, there's more ! roverman is makin a tap ! Forget the pooch. I'm gonna screw the sleeve, into the block. "That certainly takes care of the crack behind the sleeve problem"/lol.

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/05/2010 05:14PM by roverman.

mgb260
Jim Nichols
Sequim,WA
(2463 posts)

Registered:
02/29/2008 08:29PM

Main British Car:
1973 MGB roadster 260 Ford V8

Re: Flanged liner options

Posted by: mgb260
Date: February 05, 2010 06:07PM

Art, That tractor sleeve sounds good! How are you gonna cut the length down? Probably on a lathe?Are you gonna leave a step on the bottom of the block?What sealer? Too many questions?

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/05/2010 07:01PM by mgb260.

roverman
Art Gertz
Winchester, CA.
(3188 posts)

Registered:
04/24/2009 11:02AM

Main British Car:
74' Jensen Healy, 79 Huff. GT 1, 74 MGB Lotus 907,2L

Re: Flanged liner options/yes,no and maybe

Posted by: roverman
Date: February 05, 2010 07:02PM

Jim, Yea, I know a machinist that works reel-cheep ,for himself. Don't know about step. At 4.1" dia, mostly, air down there! I figure first block to be, guinee pig/lemming? Maybe "boost-it" jus-to-see ? roverman

roverman
Art Gertz
Winchester, CA.
(3188 posts)

Registered:
04/24/2009 11:02AM

Main British Car:
74' Jensen Healy, 79 Huff. GT 1, 74 MGB Lotus 907,2L

Re: Flanged liner options/wire, with math

Posted by: roverman
Date: February 09, 2010 02:38PM

Clan, Just did the math. Looks like approx. 170 feet per sleeve, based on .031" dia wire and 32 tpi. I'm thinkin, better to thread sleeve with wire profile at say 16 tpi. This would, leave block/thread in block stronger.More area under flange. Provide more surface area for thermal transfer,(cooling). A meer 85' of wire per sleeve. Thoughts ?, why yes, roverman, you need to do math. You see, if you use 14awg. wire(.063"dia.) vs. .031", tensile will be over 4X at 935 lbs ! With 10 tpi., you'll only need 43' max per sleeve = $1.35 ? Stronger, cheeper and less work, born of good math ! Gemini...the "other" head.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/13/2010 06:48PM by roverman.

mgb260
Jim Nichols
Sequim,WA
(2463 posts)

Registered:
02/29/2008 08:29PM

Main British Car:
1973 MGB roadster 260 Ford V8

Re: Flanged liner options

Posted by: mgb260
Date: February 11, 2010 07:19PM

Probably work good, in my case with Caddy wet liner, I found 58,000psi tensile 1/8" wall steel(bored to 4.099) to press tractor liners into. How much difference in expansion between steel and cast iron liners? I'm thinking pretty close,so only .001 interference shrink fit. 2 piece step liner. Chamfer steel liner and lower block for 4" Viton O ring.Use Hypalon sealer also. 4.25" O.D.. Same length as top thick part of stock liner with just tractor liner shrunk pressed(4.098) into lower block.

roverman
Art Gertz
Winchester, CA.
(3188 posts)

Registered:
04/24/2009 11:02AM

Main British Car:
74' Jensen Healy, 79 Huff. GT 1, 74 MGB Lotus 907,2L

Re: Flanged liner options/bi-metal ?

Posted by: roverman
Date: February 11, 2010 10:02PM

Jim, thermal expansion differential between non-stainless steel and cast iron should be quite low. "Loctite Sleeve Retainer" ? Block filler ? LS or Hemi pistons ? "Tractor Supply", like Alexander's should give a discount, for qty. of (8).Caddy is designed for wet sleeve. Rover was designed for 3.5" dry. I feel compelled to," thread" to prevent dread. roverman.

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