Engine and Transmission Tech

tips, technology, tools and techniques related to vehicle driveline components

Go to Thread: PreviousNext
Go to: Forum ListMessage ListNew TopicLog In
Goto Page: 12Next
Current Page: 1 of 2


NixVegaGT
Nicolas Wiederhold
Minneapolis, MN
(659 posts)

Registered:
10/16/2007 05:30AM

Main British Car:
'73 Vega GT 4.9L Rover/Buick Stroker

authors avatar
Deck plate
Posted by: NixVegaGT
Date: January 31, 2010 06:09PM

Courtesy of Jim Nichols:

http://forum.britishv8.org/file.php?6,file=4793

This is called a Deck Plate. It integrates the liners with a deck to weld to the block. This is a good way to raise the deck and tune a piston/rod combo while offering more options for larger bores.

My question is, if I weld on T6 tubes to a deck then set it to the right depth, is it necessary to weld the bottoms to the bottom of the water jackets? How about some 1" long welds around the bore? I guess if I'm going to that trouble then I might as well weld all the way around. OR do you think the iron liners press fit into the portion of the block below the bottom of the water jacket enough to seal the water jacket.


roverman
Art Gertz
Winchester, CA.
(3188 posts)

Registered:
04/24/2009 11:02AM

Main British Car:
74' Jensen Healy, 79 Huff. GT 1, 74 MGB Lotus 907,2L

Re: Deck plate/friend or foe ?
Posted by: roverman
Date: January 31, 2010 06:51PM

Nic and clan, we're taking a 25 ksi tensile block that was, originally designed for a 3.5" bore and boring well over 4". The remaining "skeleton", will need "ALL" the help it can get ,to stay together. Alum. liners and cast sleeves need to shrink-fit through the top of deck plate, and shrink fit into bottom of bore cavity. I would carefully weld everywhere that might help tie it together. I'm thinkin, with the right build, you might have as much as1,000 psi. trying to separate,(stretch), deck from bottom of bores ? Mean-while, you got the cam and crank, working overtime, to wiggle everything they touch ! Is it any wonder, some motors, just give-up ? roverman


mgb260
Jim Nichols
Sequim,WA
(2461 posts)

Registered:
02/29/2008 08:29PM

Main British Car:
1973 MGB roadster 260 Ford V8

Re: Deck plate
Posted by: mgb260
Date: January 31, 2010 07:31PM

Nic,Art, You could notch the bottom step in the block that the liner butts against and Tig in the notches.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/31/2010 07:32PM by mgb260.


NixVegaGT
Nicolas Wiederhold
Minneapolis, MN
(659 posts)

Registered:
10/16/2007 05:30AM

Main British Car:
'73 Vega GT 4.9L Rover/Buick Stroker

authors avatar
Re: Deck plate
Posted by: NixVegaGT
Date: February 01, 2010 07:35AM

You mean like a shoulder at the bottom? Wait, you mean the aluminum liner. That makes sense. Like a shoulder for the aluminum bore tube to sit inside of. I feel that.


NixVegaGT
Nicolas Wiederhold
Minneapolis, MN
(659 posts)

Registered:
10/16/2007 05:30AM

Main British Car:
'73 Vega GT 4.9L Rover/Buick Stroker

authors avatar
Re: Deck plate
Posted by: NixVegaGT
Date: February 01, 2010 08:50PM

OK so maybe gas weld the bottom of the liner. That would make it easier than trying to get the TIG torch down in there. I honestly think it wouldn't happen.


BlownMGB-V8
Jim Blackwood
9406 Gunpowder Rd., Florence, KY 41042
(6468 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 12:59PM

Main British Car:
1971 MGB Blown,Injected,Intercooled Buick 340/AA80E/JagIRS

authors avatar
Re: Deck plate
Posted by: BlownMGB-V8
Date: February 01, 2010 09:25PM

You'll get less warpage and probably a better bond with the oven braze (solder) method I think.

JB


roverman
Art Gertz
Winchester, CA.
(3188 posts)

Registered:
04/24/2009 11:02AM

Main British Car:
74' Jensen Healy, 79 Huff. GT 1, 74 MGB Lotus 907,2L

Re: Deck plate
Posted by: roverman
Date: February 01, 2010 10:00PM

Jim, I was told oven brazing occours close to melt temp of alum. ? If so, not good for block and no temper left in alum. "If" I can make wet tractor sleeve work, should be least amount of effort. roverman.



NixVegaGT
Nicolas Wiederhold
Minneapolis, MN
(659 posts)

Registered:
10/16/2007 05:30AM

Main British Car:
'73 Vega GT 4.9L Rover/Buick Stroker

authors avatar
Re: Deck plate
Posted by: NixVegaGT
Date: February 02, 2010 09:21AM

That's fair. Do we need to use thicker liners then or will the tractor sleeve with piano wire be enough? The other thing I was wondering about was if you wrap the sleeve in wire and then try to press it into the block/deck plate, will it seal? will it work?


roverman
Art Gertz
Winchester, CA.
(3188 posts)

Registered:
04/24/2009 11:02AM

Main British Car:
74' Jensen Healy, 79 Huff. GT 1, 74 MGB Lotus 907,2L

Re: Deck plate
Posted by: roverman
Date: February 02, 2010 11:09AM

Nic', why push -it, when you could screw-it,in? Sleeve-26 ksi. Piano wire-330 ksi. Got math ? Got Hard blok ? Me make, "custom" tap-last long time. Let's see here.. late hemi pistons/ or LS, if you must, "smart" hemi head, cheap short block. Miss anything ? roverman.


NixVegaGT
Nicolas Wiederhold
Minneapolis, MN
(659 posts)

Registered:
10/16/2007 05:30AM

Main British Car:
'73 Vega GT 4.9L Rover/Buick Stroker

authors avatar
Re: Deck plate
Posted by: NixVegaGT
Date: February 02, 2010 03:45PM

I was thinking that, I guess I'm wondering HOW to screw it in. It gets screwed into the deck plate too?


roverman
Art Gertz
Winchester, CA.
(3188 posts)

Registered:
04/24/2009 11:02AM

Main British Car:
74' Jensen Healy, 79 Huff. GT 1, 74 MGB Lotus 907,2L

Re: Deck plate/threads ?
Posted by: roverman
Date: February 02, 2010 04:16PM

Nic and clan, I see no reason, not to. Glue or weld deck plate in place. Finish bore for proper thread percentage and hand tap,(hollow/guided). Coat piano wire with "sleeve retainer", drive sleeve via expanded, internal mandrel or internal sprag/roller clutch. Let anerobic adhesive cure and add hard blok. roverman.


BlownMGB-V8
Jim Blackwood
9406 Gunpowder Rd., Florence, KY 41042
(6468 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 12:59PM

Main British Car:
1971 MGB Blown,Injected,Intercooled Buick 340/AA80E/JagIRS

authors avatar
Re: Deck plate
Posted by: BlownMGB-V8
Date: February 02, 2010 06:01PM

Art, the block is cast, so there is no "temper" to upset. It's as soft and porous as any cast aluminum would be. Solders suitable for use with aluminum alloys are available in a pretty wide range of compositions and melting temperatures. Ever see the fins sag on an oven brazed aluminum radiator? No? Might be due to a careful selection of the solder and flux. And with well fitted parts the solder just wicks into the seam and makes a permanent bond with no unsightly excess. Hey, if it works for radiators...

JB


roverman
Art Gertz
Winchester, CA.
(3188 posts)

Registered:
04/24/2009 11:02AM

Main British Car:
74' Jensen Healy, 79 Huff. GT 1, 74 MGB Lotus 907,2L

Re: Deck plate/furnace braze
Posted by: roverman
Date: February 02, 2010 06:49PM

Jim, Ok instead of "temper", perhaps I should have said, "hardness", like say #356 T6, cast alum.? As I recall, I had a "tensile" test on a 215", coupon,(semi permanent mold), I think around 28 ksi. Perhaps you know of a suitable alloy ? thanks, roverman.


BlownMGB-V8
Jim Blackwood
9406 Gunpowder Rd., Florence, KY 41042
(6468 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 12:59PM

Main British Car:
1971 MGB Blown,Injected,Intercooled Buick 340/AA80E/JagIRS

authors avatar
Re: Deck plate
Posted by: BlownMGB-V8
Date: February 04, 2010 09:12AM

Art, here is an article that is pretty informative:

"Left. Coupons of Alloy 6111 soldered using Zn/15Al and a flux based on complex fluoroaluminate salts. For the purpose of this test, one length of 0.093-in.-diameter solder was placed on one side of the joint, then pulled through to the opposite side with heat."

[www.aws.org]

JB


NixVegaGT
Nicolas Wiederhold
Minneapolis, MN
(659 posts)

Registered:
10/16/2007 05:30AM

Main British Car:
'73 Vega GT 4.9L Rover/Buick Stroker

authors avatar
Re: Deck plate
Posted by: NixVegaGT
Date: February 04, 2010 01:49PM

So I could potentially lay some solder wires around each bore in the water jacket and draw it through by heating the inside of the bores?



BlownMGB-V8
Jim Blackwood
9406 Gunpowder Rd., Florence, KY 41042
(6468 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 12:59PM

Main British Car:
1971 MGB Blown,Injected,Intercooled Buick 340/AA80E/JagIRS

authors avatar
Re: Deck plate
Posted by: BlownMGB-V8
Date: February 04, 2010 05:12PM

Potentially yes. But like the article said, preparation is key. The process requires exactness for consistent results.

JB


NixVegaGT
Nicolas Wiederhold
Minneapolis, MN
(659 posts)

Registered:
10/16/2007 05:30AM

Main British Car:
'73 Vega GT 4.9L Rover/Buick Stroker

authors avatar
Re: Deck plate
Posted by: NixVegaGT
Date: February 04, 2010 06:01PM

OK considering Art's "tractor" sleeve/piano wire idea with no aluminum bores, I was looking through the Melling catalog again. They sell an "LS1" sleeve that has an OD of 4.18". That's another 80 thou bigger dia. Maybe the piano wire is unnecessary?


roverman
Art Gertz
Winchester, CA.
(3188 posts)

Registered:
04/24/2009 11:02AM

Main British Car:
74' Jensen Healy, 79 Huff. GT 1, 74 MGB Lotus 907,2L

Re: Deck plate
Posted by: roverman
Date: February 04, 2010 07:27PM

Yea graate, Have you priced it ? Flange dia is....? You want to take a $111. ea., iron alloy sleeve and mill flats,(perfect fit), on the flanges to sqeeze them into 4.24" bore centers? You don't suppose this whole "monster bore" thing, just "mite" be gettin-over conjugated ? You could try the tractor sleeve, with-out wire, even simpler ! Hell, might even work ! I guess it partially depends on how much block filler, side loads and hp ? These are, un-charted waters...beware of "land mines". roverman.


NixVegaGT
Nicolas Wiederhold
Minneapolis, MN
(659 posts)

Registered:
10/16/2007 05:30AM

Main British Car:
'73 Vega GT 4.9L Rover/Buick Stroker

authors avatar
Re: Deck plate
Posted by: NixVegaGT
Date: February 05, 2010 07:28AM

That's the one for $111?? Huh...


BlownMGB-V8
Jim Blackwood
9406 Gunpowder Rd., Florence, KY 41042
(6468 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 12:59PM

Main British Car:
1971 MGB Blown,Injected,Intercooled Buick 340/AA80E/JagIRS

authors avatar
Re: Deck plate
Posted by: BlownMGB-V8
Date: February 05, 2010 08:54AM

Generally speaking, with cast iron you want to try to maintain 3/16 of wall thickness on the thrust faces and can go thinner on the sides but should try to stay around 1/8" or better. It's possible to go thinner than this but you risk distortion of the walls with anything under about .150"(opinions will vary somewhat). So using that formula you could theoretically squeeze a 4" bore out of the 4.240" bore centers if you milled flats on the sides and went down to a .120" wall at the thinnest point. That should be plenty strong enough. Oven braze that to a steel deck plate 1/4" or 5/16" thick and dowell pin and seal the deck plate to the open block top with "Right Stuff" sealant , using "O" rings or more "Right Stuff" to seal the bottom of the bores with the end seated securely in the block and you should have a good usable 4" bore engine. I'd add micro-channels for coolant to flow between the cylinders. Straight, no-flange sleeves would be fine, use counter sunk socket head capscrews to secure the plates to the block and deck after assembly. Add o-rings if desired. A 4" bore coupled with the 3.850" stroke of the SBB 350 gives you a displacement of 387 cu. in. or 6.3 L.

JB
Goto Page: 12Next
Current Page: 1 of 2


Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.