Engine and Transmission Tech

Homemade paddle shifter for AW4.The guy no longer makes these but used relays and momentary switches to operate. Simple rocker switchs on dash for manual overide of TCU and torque converter lockup.





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/10/2010 10:53PM by mgb260.

How about H pattern shifter?

It really useful for me, thanks for the info that you guys have been discussing.

It really useful for me, thanks for the info that you guys have been discussing.

Prices have got to come down, but that will happen as time goes on. Jim, I had a look at that link and noticed they have a PLC based shift controller for the 340. That tells me right there that my theory is at least feasible. Very good news, so it should be just a matter of finding the right one and programming it. I also found it interesting that their shifter allows you to start in any gear. I hadn't even considered that. I can see the need for the paddle shifters with the 8 speed with the ratios of the lower gears, and am in fact presently on the lookout for a Jag IRS with a lower gear, I think the 2.88 was common, and that should work well with the AA80E. It will still have a killer first gear and need to be shifted almost immediately on launch. The PLC would allow control of shift firmness, very important for daily driving and for track work or spirited mountain driving.

JB

Jim B., Here you go! 8 speed dash mount paddle shifter!

I'm back at work on the controls. Jim, that's a pretty slick shifter, shouldn't be too hard to make something similar.

Looking at the MegaShift, I believe the limitation may be what it takes to add an extra 3 PWM output drivers. Hopefully I'll get some sort of an answer to that in another day or two.

JB

Hey Jim,

Looked up your jag diffy. ratios. 2.88 :1 came out in july 1981 and newer HE engined v12s Everything else XJ12 and XJS was 3.31 :1
Late 4.2 XJ6 automatics had a 3.07 :1 and the early ones had 3.54 :1 European models had a vast selection from 4.55 :1 on up.
V12 models had LSD sixes did not.
Hope that helps.

It never occurred to me to use a PLC for an automatic trans controller. What a great idea!
I've been getting mine from www.automationdirect.com They have several very versatile 12volt units available at a reasonable price.
I use them for everything from door locks to suspension control.
I haven't used an electronic auto trans because of the controller issues.
And was looking at the megasquirt system but didn't want to get that complex the first time out.
But the PLC idea I'm comfortable with.
Wah hoo.... here we go.

Cheers
Fred

Fred, do you know of a good PLC with 7 or 8 PWM outputs, a few aux outputs and a dozen or so inputs both digital and analog? (CAN bus might not hurt either)

JB

Jim, have a look at the automation direct D0-6DD2-D. 20 inputs 16 out and 4 expansion slots.
The D06 line has a lot of variety in the 12-24 volt range
Might pay to call them for a recommendation. Their tech line is superb.
Cheers
Fred

Thanks Fred. It certainly is compact enough and sounds pretty impressive going by the stats, but I'm learning as I go here, PLCs have advanced greatly since I was last exposed to them. So I'm hoping you can enlighten me and whoever else might be paying attention.

First, I have seen that some PLCs are capable of communicating via CAN bus (Controller Area Network) which is a 2 wire network using matching chips at each device and some sort of termination at the ends as I understand it. This would presumably allow contact with MegaSquirt and other controllers (common with newer cars), providing an easy input of several analog inputs such as TPS, MAP, and coolant temp as well as engine speed and cutting the input needs by that much. So apparently a good feature to have. It can also be used to enable automatic ignition/timing, fuel, and IAC changes during shifts for smoother up and downshifts.

Then additional inputs are ATF temp and ATF pressure, both of which are analog. Then the control inputs are at least two lines from the shifter for reverse and drive, both lines high could be used for Manual Mode, plus two lines for shift+ and shift- which could be paddle shift, console, or both.

Finally brake, possibly Kickdown (could be enabled in software) and personally I'd like to enable a "Clutch" function for stoplight throttle blips and overcooked corners. (NOT launch control) Oh, and output shaft speed.

So at a minimum that's CAN, plus 2 analog, plus 8 more digital inputs, or without CAN, 5 analog and 9 digital inputs. Plus one more digital input for my clutch function.

For the AA80E which has 9 solenoids I would need 7 PWM outputs and 2 solenoid drivers plus 1 speedometer driver, 1 odometer output and an output for a gear indicator (4 lines to drive a 7 segment display ?)

I think that is pretty complete.

JB

Jim I don't think I can program that with my VIC-20.
Seriously, thats above my skill level. But I am going to set up a test board and figure it out.
I have a DD2-D ordered and a megasquirt system without a home at the moment so maybe some communication can be figured out. I'm not sure that CAN is the right answer. I know it's widely used in the automotive world but it's pretty unstable and with two systems so dependant on each others inputs, if one glitches they all do. Just look at Audi's little CAN nightmare. Driving past an old Chevy with an unfiltered ignition can unroll your windows and put you in 2nd gear.
Anyway we'll give it a shot.
Any help from the crowd would be welcome.
Cheers
Fred

Lexus and other car brands use CAN bus pretty extensively, maybe it's just a matter of proper shielding. I've never seen cheaper/crappier shielding than what the auto manufacturers use on a regular basis so maybe that's the problem.

Anyway, I wanted to tell you that this isn't the only approach, even though it could turn out to be the better one. Lance over on the MegaSquirt forum seems pretty fired up about this Lexus 8 speed and he's taken an interest in making the MegaShift work with it. Both approaches are viable. I've also sent another email to my Lexus contact to try for an intro to the Toyota R&D to see what they can do for an aftermarket product but no response yet from him. That strikes me as the slowest and most expensive solution but ultimately it could be the most thorough.

So far there seem to be only three of us who are pursuing this idea with any sort of dedication, you, me and Jim N., although several more have contributed in a number of ways. That makes us pioneers I guess, so I'd say we'll get farther if we stick together. There are a few others who are with us now on the MegaSquirt and that system is starting to gain some traction. I don't know if anyone had a MS in an MG before I did or not, there may have been someone somewhere. But I can tell you I sure was glad when Bill came on board. That's very similar to where we are right now with the transmission control.

JB

Jim, I went Whitetail hunting recently and a friend has a new Tundra. Nice floor shift with a slot over at Drive position for Manual and up and down shift buttons similar to the Volvo one I showed a while back.Only 6 speed though. Our Honda Quads have 5 speed electric shift up and down buttons also.Maybe look in the wrecking yard at the Lexus 8 speed shifter? I have it easy with only 4 speeds,Manual button,relays for sequential up and down shift,TQ lock up button,TPS and stock controller box.Good luck, and keep us posted. We use a lot of PLC's where I work,mostly GE Genius blocks. I think with age the failure rate seems high. We joke about them being not so Genius blocks.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/13/2010 09:00PM by mgb260.

As things stand right now, the MegaShift guys (Lance mostly) have made some progress on the AA80E controller. I was out of the loop for a month so progress has slowed down but I hope I can get it going again. [www.msgpio.com]

I've also made a request for some documentation of the A650E 5 speed transmission. Some will recall I had been planning to use that one until the 8 speed was available but now Dan B would like to use it in his TR7 so maybe we can pursue that as well.

That's about all that's new right now.

JB

Hi Jim, Interesting conversation about trannys. I just went for a ride, it's 60 degrees outside on January 29th. I run a 700R4 with a 2400stall B&M converter, which eliminates the need for computer. With a few upgrades, I push 560 HP through mine and usually manually shift with a B&M megashifter. Once I had It set up by real pro's, It is an instant shifting 4 speed with overdrive. It is so care free. I've had my car to 152 MPH in 3rd,but let off, didn't go into 4th. I like your car, how much power do you have? My car can be seen in the photo gallery under TR6 Rick Vandenberg.

Very nice car Rick. Centerline wheels I'm guessing? Too bad they don't make those in 17". I ran a 700r4 in my truck, a 70's I-H Travelall which my son called a monster truck. I have a 2004r which I considered using but decided I wanted more control than I could get from a mechanical setup, and then I ran across this 8 speed and just had to have it. The good thing is that the control scheme is so similar to the 5 speed that once we have one of them the other shouldn't be hard. But it'll take a little time. As for horsepower, I'm pretty confident it'll be over 300 and that's about as much as I'll claim. Pretty sure I've got that in the bag.

JB

Thanks, Jim. The engine was built by retired Burger King indy car owner/driver Tom Frantz. He works with the pride of GM Racing. Yes, they are old school 3 piece Centerlines, and the rears are 16" wide. I always wanted a set of those when I was young, and couldn't afford them.
Good luck with the 8 speed, that will be very cool. I don't think my brain is fast enough to keep up with all that shifting! Rick

Jim, are you still considering a PLC and a CAN buss to control the auto or was it going to be Megasquirt?

I'm coming up to speed on PLC programming in the Rockwell/AB environment. I suppose it will come down to a matter of what is cheaper.

Paul

Pretty much. I think the GPIO board for the MS runs a couple bills, I'll have to check. Preliminaries look like it might work out OK. The files for the Toyota/Lexus AA80 8 speed and also the A650E 5 speed are uploaded to threads on the Megashift forum. There's a good bit more work to do but I think it looks doable enough to justify buying the hardware. I'll be closer after I get the wiring harness and finish some more of the mechanical work on the car and that's waiting on warmer weather. Really, I'm putting this off about as much as I can, but by late spring it's going to have to move forward.

JB