Engine and Transmission Tech

A buddy of mine recently had a stroker motor built. Less than 1000 miles later it is at another machine shop being rebuilt again. Second machinist so far has needed to line bore for the crank, needs to bore cylinders because all of the cross hatching is gone and the cylinders are out of round and tapered top to bottom, and found that the decks were out. One deck was 4 thousandths and one was 8 thousandths out from being a true 45 degrees from the crank. This time the second builder is borrowing torque plates from an engine builder in Va. in order to bore the engine this time. My question is how crucial are the torque plates? Every thing I read says it is imperative that they be used on aluminum block engines, yet I know of at least one well renowned engine builder that has never used them.

Todd and clan., to my way of thinking,the closer the head bolts to the bores, (distortion), the more neccessary.If the deck is not flat and parallel to main centerline, more distortion.Studs will reduce distortion,(not a cure).On the the 4.02" , bore Rover, "if" Mike's machinist, were talking, person might say, VERY ! On any performance Rover, with os. bores, I would.Why take the chance on a sub-standard build ? roverman.

More bad news. Turns out the block was bored 20 over on the initial stroker build. It was bored perpendicular to the previously mentioned untrue decks not the crank, so the bores don't line up perpendicular to the crank any more. That might explain why the bores were tapered so badly from the bottom to the top, and maybe why the rings didn't seat.?? Time for a new 4.0 block for my buddy.

Wow.. Who was the original machinist Ray Charles.?
It amazes me the amount of money some will spend on parts only to skimp on the machine work. Id always use a deck plate for an aluminum block .

How many machine shops are going to have a torque plate for boring a 215 block? Seems like they would be few and far between. Are there any loaners out there? as I am getting ready to begin machine work on my olds 215 block

The borrowed torque plate or plates came from Tim Lanocha. He is the guy building the 4.020 inch bore motor shown in a previous post. He has built dozens of Rover motors in the past, so it makes sense that he would have his own personal set of plates. Tim is shipping them to me, and then I will deliver them to the new machinist. I'll take a picture of them when they show up. I talked to the original machinist and he doesn't feel that the torque plates are necessary on a Rover motor for the same reasons Roverman stated. He did say that they were crucial for LS motors thou.

Im guessing the Buick 215 isnt a high enough volume engine that most machine shops would invest in the torque plates.. That doesnt mean that there are not available.. BHJ makes them.... Listed under GM V-8 Buick/Olds/Rover 215. They can also be modified for larger bore..
[www.bhjproducts.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/10/2010 07:17PM by hoffbug.

OK, Todd and clan. Sounds like, "if" deck is not cut too much, can be saved with "flanged liners? B&J at $413. EACH ?Help me out here...why do we need "two "? Will the engine tip over with one ? Does "someone" believe you must pre-distort ALL (8) bores at once ? I, myself, would be-friend a "waterjet" shop. For what we do to cars, them and "laser" folks, can save us a lot of $. I'd use Mild steel, 1" MIN. thickness, I used 1.25", overkill better than under.Make sure you put (6) holes around each bore? Have "blanchard ground", flat/parrallel and your good-to-go. If you're using heads studs, USE them AND a used gasket of same type, you'll be running. Trick is to duplicate the clamp/distortion process as close as possible, including main caps and used bearings a good idea. "Some" go so far, as to circulate , eng. running temp. fluid through block, during the honing process. Overkill?-maybe. How good of ring seal do you want ? roverman.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 03/10/2010 08:37PM by roverman.

If I can find the hunk of steel laying around that I had originally intended to make a torque plate for mgb 1.8L, If it's big enough, Is anyone interested in making a single torque plate to share with the rest of you? I would like first dibs on using it and then ship to the next guy. We could all pass among ourselves, keeping it in the states. Sorry Brits
One will work right? Will one made for 215 Old ap work on Buick and larger Rover engines?
Just a thought

David and clan, Unless someone is using, "wierd" gasket, I see no reason why "larger" bore , plate will not work on 215's through 350's ? As long as it's strong enough, to pre-distort the bores ? Additionally useful for mounting,"boring bar". I would build with, 6 bolt bore pattern. Does anyone still convert "early" 215's/3.5's to 1 pc. rear seal ? If so, I have tooling. Basically, I would rough bore (2) rear main caps on lathe, install 1, add "boring bar" mounting plate on back of block and finish machine to size.Just say NO, to rope ! roverman.

I received the torque plate in the mail yesterday. Here is a picture of it. Tim owns two of these, so that is why I was confused whether you needed one or two. You only need one. It is made from 1" thick steel. Bores are 4 and 1/16". Not sure what the top two bolt holes are for. Any ideas? I know somebody that has access to a water jet table. He is a friend of a friend, and I am trying to see if he can duplicate one of these. He works nights at a machine shop and gets to play on his own projects while he baby sits machines that run automatically all night long. Since it is only him and another guy in the shop, he has prety much free run of the place. He makes up some really cool things with the water jet.

What does the numbering/lettering say at the left end on the plate as pictured?

Speaking only for myself, I would use, "overkill" for plate strength, ie. not bored much further than bore dia's and adequately thick. For running 5-6 bolts per bore, you need them in the plate.I think we know to, blanchard grind, after the h2o jet ? Your clue, if the plate is strong enough, measure bore with/with-out plate torked, with a "dial bore gage". Does it distort the bores in bolt areas? They usually pull the bore inward. Good Luck, roverman.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/14/2010 02:14PM by roverman.

It says TOP. Heard back from my buddy the machinist. He says no problem. He will look for some scrap 1" plate tomorrow. If he doesn't find any, he will have to order it, and I will have to pay for it. He wants me to bend up a new roll hoop and side bars for a dune buggy he is building. My time for his time trade. Not sure if I want to "invest" 10 to 15 hours just to get a torque plate thou.

Todd, jus' so you know, If you provide him a CAD or PDF file, it should take a half hour, max. You can use "remnant" plate, rusty, because you will blanchard anyway.roverman.

The other two holes are for the dowels I suspect. Just in case you had already fitted them.

Alan

I'd love to get in on this deal, but I'll be using an Olds engine that has 6 bolts.

Seems like using a torque plate would allow a fella to use steel shim gaskets instead of composition gaskets. Flatter deck when torqued.

Alan, Todd, Paul and clan, those 2 extra holes, look way oversize for stock dowels ? Why would one not make plate with 6 holes, around each bore ? Better to have, not need than otherwise ? I would always use the gasket type, I'm going to run, under the torque plate. You want steel shim because....? roverman.

I am pretty sure Tim Lanocha had the plates made up so he could use them on that 4.020" bore motor he is building that Mike posted pics of. Might explain why he has two of them, and why the bores are so large. Tim was also nice enough to sell my buddy a decent 4.0 short block since the first one is junk. The block and torque plate should make it to the engine shop by Wednesday. Final plan for the motor is an offset ground 4.6 crank, forged 6" chevy rods, and forged Ross pistons with total seal rings. Engine will be zero balanced, decked, bored 20 over, and broken in on an engine dyno. I gave him my last set of 300 heads for the build. Heads are all ready done waiting to go with new seats and 1.77" and 1.5" valves. He is going with 10.5 compression, roller rockers, and a solid lifter cam. When it's done, we can play guess the HP and torque.

I'm going to look for that hunk of steel soon. If you want a tool to share gang. 6 holes? 5 line up with the buick block right?