Engine and Transmission Tech

tips, technology, tools and techniques related to vehicle driveline components

Go to Thread: PreviousNext
Go to: Forum ListMessage ListNew TopicLog In


joe_padavano
Joseph Padavano
Northern Virginia
(112 posts)

Registered:
02/15/2010 03:49PM

Main British Car:
1962 F-85 Deluxe wagon 215 Olds

Front cover for a 4.6
Posted by: joe_padavano
Date: August 03, 2010 04:24PM

Can the early (3.9 liter) front cover be installed on a 4.6? I'd like to run a distributor. What changes are required? Oil pump? Balancer? Thanks.


castlesid
Kevin Jackson
Sidcup UK
(361 posts)

Registered:
11/18/2007 10:38AM

Main British Car:
1975 MGB GT Rover V8 4.35L

Re: Front cover for a 4.6
Posted by: castlesid
Date: August 05, 2010 08:01AM

Joe,

Yes but the nose of the 4.6 crank is longer so you need a spacer. Seems a shame to go backwards especially if you have the EFI, if so then to keep the later type oil pump is a big advantage and you can fit a trigger wheel behind the crank pulley and use a Megasquirt ECU to run the EFI.

Kevin.


mgb260
Jim Nichols
Sequim,WA
(1802 posts)

Registered:
02/29/2008 08:29PM

Main British Car:
1973 MGB roadster 260 Ford V8

Re: Front cover for a 4.6
Posted by: mgb260
Date: August 05, 2010 08:22AM

I thought the late 3.9 early 4.2 had the newer front cover with distributor boss.4.0 transitional cover?Also 85-87 Buick V6.Crank driven oil pump with distributor provision.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 08/05/2010 08:35AM by mgb260.


Robrover
Rob Thornton
Adelaide, Australia
(18 posts)

Registered:
10/01/2009 11:52PM

Main British Car:
1978 Rover SD1 4.6

Re: Front cover for a 4.6
Posted by: Robrover
Date: August 08, 2010 12:41AM

Yes it's called the Interim Front Cover as fitted to 3.9 litre serpentine type Land Rover Discoveries 1994 - 99 (and used by some TVRs). The front cover has the integral crank driven oil pump and a hole in the top for the distributor.

If yo fit the early pre 94 cover from either a 3.5 or 3.9 engine then it still uses the older distributor driven oil pump and you will need to fit a crank spacer if it's going onto a 4.6 block.


joe_padavano
Joseph Padavano
Northern Virginia
(112 posts)

Registered:
02/15/2010 03:49PM

Main British Car:
1962 F-85 Deluxe wagon 215 Olds

Re: Front cover for a 4.6
Posted by: joe_padavano
Date: August 08, 2010 08:30AM

Great, thanks. Now I know what to look for.


RDMG
D R

(58 posts)

Registered:
04/07/2016 08:29PM

Main British Car:
MGB Still Stock (temporarily)

Re: Front cover for a 4.6
Posted by: RDMG
Date: September 05, 2016 09:35PM

Hi All,

Reviving an old thread, but I'm curious about Jim Nichols' comment on the 85-87 Buick v6 front cover, and its use on a Rover 4.6.

If I read the above correctly, the Buick cover from those years includes a crank-driven oil pump, plus a distributor mount. That combo could be perfect for LBC applications using the last-generation Rover engines, particularly since it also offers a different oil filter position from the Rover interim cover.

What sort of harmonic balancer, water pump, and belts would normally fit to that vintage of Buick V6? I'm hoping something thinner (and cheaper) than the UK-spec parts for the interim and later-style Rover serpentine system?

Thanks to all of you for building the knowledge in this forum-I'm learning a lot!

Dave


mgb260
Jim Nichols
Sequim,WA
(1802 posts)

Registered:
02/29/2008 08:29PM

Main British Car:
1973 MGB roadster 260 Ford V8

Re: Front cover for a 4.6
Posted by: mgb260
Date: September 06, 2016 01:43AM

Dave, This thread may offer some insight on the V6 cover. Oil pump is the same as 3800 pre Series 1.

[forum.britishv8.org]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/08/2016 12:48PM by mgb260.



RDMG
D R

(58 posts)

Registered:
04/07/2016 08:29PM

Main British Car:
MGB Still Stock (temporarily)

Re: Front cover for a 4.6
Posted by: RDMG
Date: September 08, 2016 05:47PM

Hi Jim,

Thanks for the background info. I surfed through the thread, and the other thread linked within, but I couldn't find an actual picture or part number for the 85-87 Buick LeSabre V6 cover, and unfortunately the links to the turbobuick project involving a welded cover were dead.

Is the only Buick solution to weld two different styles of Buick covers together, or is the 85-87 LeSabre cover a bolt on, gerotor-pump-plus-distributor option?

I did find a great website with photos of many Buick v6 and v8 front covers, along with part numbers, interchange numbers, casting numbers, and basic features:

[www.aamidwest.com]

Might the Buick front cover we're talking about be listed there?

Even if its not listed, it looks like some of the later covers (TC181D, etc) that are listed would be good options for guys using a late 4.6 engine and Megasquirt injection. Crank-driven oil pump, hopefully slimmer and cheaper water pump, v-belt instead of serp belt, etc.

Many thanks,

Dave


mgb260
Jim Nichols
Sequim,WA
(1802 posts)

Registered:
02/29/2008 08:29PM

Main British Car:
1973 MGB roadster 260 Ford V8

Re: Front cover for a 4.6
Posted by: mgb260
Date: September 08, 2016 06:11PM

Dave, It may not exist, due to misinformation. I think, the 86-88 VIN 3 V6 with roller cam has the same front cover as 3800 88-90 pre series 1 with NO distributor provision. The 85-88 other 3.8 V6 cover has distributor provision but the older style oil pump. The Rover interim 3.9/4.2 cover available in Land Rovers 94-99 may be your best bet. As far as cutting and welding it may be easier to cut out the distributor hole from an early cover and tig into the pre series 1 3800 cover. The one that was cut in half and welded, was for a Buick 350. The original crank driven oil pump had 2 flats on the crank gear to drive the oil pump. The 350 adaptation had 2 flats on the damper stub to drive the oil pump.


mgb260
Jim Nichols
Sequim,WA
(1802 posts)

Registered:
02/29/2008 08:29PM

Main British Car:
1973 MGB roadster 260 Ford V8

Re: Front cover for a 4.6
Posted by: mgb260
Date: September 08, 2016 07:39PM

Dave, looks like TC181 D for 86-88 and TC181F for 89-90.


RDMG
D R

(58 posts)

Registered:
04/07/2016 08:29PM

Main British Car:
MGB Still Stock (temporarily)

Re: Front cover for a 4.6
Posted by: RDMG
Date: September 08, 2016 08:36PM

The same versions caught my eye as well. I'm hoping to get away from the rover interim cover or space reasons, and for cost reasons. Buick v6 front dress is a lot smaller and cheaper. A dizzy setup would be great, but I'm also looking at options for a non-serpentine, crank-driven oil pump, EFI setup.

I'm intrigued by the one with a cam position sensor. I assume a stock sensor there could read a 4.6 cam, simplifying the EFI trigger wheel problem, but maybe not.

I also noticed that the various fittings for the oil filter on the later 3.8 v6 covers look interchangeable. Some place it forward, some backward. That may provide some options.

My lingering concern is whether the 4.6 crank dimensions would match the Buick v6 gerotor.

Has anyone out there put one of these Buick 3.8 gerotor-style covers on a 4.0/4.6 engine?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/09/2016 09:32PM by RDMG.


RDMG
D R

(58 posts)

Registered:
04/07/2016 08:29PM

Main British Car:
MGB Still Stock (temporarily)

Re: Front cover for a 4.6
Posted by: RDMG
Date: June 09, 2017 10:45PM

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I think I've discovered that any Rover serpentine front cover from a 4.0. or 4.6 won't fit an MGB, even with a remote oil filter kit. I think it might with some TIG work, or movement of the steering rack.

See the attached photo-- I just installed my engine to check clearances and cut header holes before painting.

In the pic, the face of the front cover surrounding the crank nose is just slightly forward of the steering rack, exactly where most would want it. I'm using D&D motor mounts.

I had to remove the elbow for the oil filter from the front cover just to get the engine into the car. It would have rested on top of the steering rack otherwise. The elbow has a unique bolt pattern, meaning it can't rotate, and that other parts wont interchange. Without the elbow, a remote kit won't fit either.

Since the serpentine covers have no distributor shaft or other mechanical bits near the filter mount, I'm thinking I'll cut the flange off the factory oil filter elbow and TIG weld a universal remote oil filter fitting to it. It will be a really tight fit, but I think it will work. It may require mods to the cover itself, which makes replacement in the future more of a problem.

Alternative is to fit a LR or Buick distributor-based front cover, oil pan, distributor, cam, etc. I'm surfing the archives now to see if the serpentine "interim" front cover from 1994-ish Land Rovers has a slightly different oil filter location.

I'm still chasing the idea of a Buick 3800 series II gerotor front cover, but I haven't seen one installed on a Rover block. Legend has it that one fits, which would be perfect.

[attachment 18777 IMG_7091.JPG]
IMG_7093.JPG
IMG_7091.JPG



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 06/10/2017 06:35AM by RDMG.


MGBV8
Carl Floyd
Kingsport, TN
(3231 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 11:32PM

Main British Car:
79 MGB, Buick 215

authors avatar
Re: Front cover for a 4.6
Posted by: MGBV8
Date: June 12, 2017 10:13AM

Rover serpentine front cover from a 4.0. or 4.6 won't fit an MGB? May want to review Jim Stuart's build.

[www.britishv8.org]


RDMG
D R

(58 posts)

Registered:
04/07/2016 08:29PM

Main British Car:
MGB Still Stock (temporarily)

Re: Front cover for a 4.6
Posted by: RDMG
Date: June 12, 2017 04:34PM

Hi Jim,

I saw Jim Stuart's build and was inspired by it, but didn't grasp the significance of the steering rack mods until I had my block in place.

I can confirm that the stock serp setup with factory 4.0/4.6 front cover requires either a remote oil filter, or moving the steering rack.

I am trying to avoid safety-affecting custom mods, bc I don't trust my own welding ability, and probably would have to pay many thousands to find a guy in Northern VA willing to do it.

I was planning to use a 90-degree filter adapter, but the geometry won't work. There's a range of Ford truck and racing filter angle adapters out there on Google, and it appears that most have the same thread pattern as later Rover covers. This Ford Ranger adapter is very close to what I need, but I need both a tight bend and a longer "sweep" to clear the rack:

[www.ebay.com]

The surface of the 4.6 cover that accepts the factory 90-degree elbow is an o-ring sealing surface similar to the oil filter itself, so I'm pretty confident that I can fit a remote filter plate with side ports to it.

I'm now considering plumbing for the remote filter and oil cooler. The 4.6 cover has separate ports for an oil cooler. I'm wondering if there's any oil pressure benefit to running the cooler in parallel to the filter with its own hoses from the cover, or if it makes more sense to run it in series with the filter, using only three hoses. Fewer fittings that way, but smaller cross section (choke point) in the system

I've also been looking at Buick v6 covers. I think there's a gerotor cover with six oil pump splines that would fit the rover crank keyway, and that places the oil filter forward and vertical, but the oil pan holes won't match to the cast Rover pan, and I think it might need a slight mod/weld/milling to move one of the water passages. All probably a lot of work for not much different from the cover I've got.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/12/2017 04:47PM by RDMG.


Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.