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tips, technology, tools and techniques related to vehicle driveline components

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1MGBV8
Paul Waters

(13 posts)

Registered:
10/24/2007 03:12PM

Main British Car:


T5 WC Ford vs GM
Posted by: 1MGBV8
Date: April 14, 2008 11:46PM

I'm ready to add the transmission to my MGB/Rover conversion. However I'm trying to understand what transmission is the easiest to install. I've heard that a GM T5 will go in without any tunnel modification needed. Will a Ford T5 go in as easy? There are a lot more Ford T5's available from 80-90's mustangs that GM T5's at least on E-bay. What's the opinion on ease of assembly and performance.


MGBV8
Carl Floyd
Kingsport, TN
(3789 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 11:32PM

Main British Car:
1979 MGB, Buick 215

authors avatar
Re: T5 WC Ford vs GM
Posted by: MGBV8
Date: April 15, 2008 07:58AM

Do you have a bellhousing?

A rover bellhousing will support a Rover 5 speed or a Triumph TR7/8 5 speed. This combo apparently needs more tunnel height.

A Buick/Olds bellhousing is needed to use the GM T-5. The Buick/Olds bellhousing was made in three different configurations; three speed, four speed, & a dual pattern for both transmissions.

D & D Fabrications [www.aluminumv8.com] makes an adapter that bolts to the Buick/Olds three speed bellhousing. This will allow you to bolt a Ford T-5 to a Buick/Olds/Rover engine. This is the only way that I am aware of that will allow you to use a Ford T-5. Exactly where the shifter winds up I do not know. The shifter usually requires a bit of tweaking for most conversions.

D & D also has aftermarket bellhousings from TransDapt for the GM T-5. They cull thru the shipment for the ones with acceptable runout.

A T-5 (GM or Ford) will help you with the tunnel mods. A bit of massaging with 4 lb. hammer is all that is needed.


NixVegaGT
Nicolas Wiederhold
Minneapolis, MN
(659 posts)

Registered:
10/16/2007 05:30AM

Main British Car:
'73 Vega GT 4.9L Rover/Buick Stroker

authors avatar
Re: T5 WC Ford vs GM
Posted by: NixVegaGT
Date: April 15, 2008 11:39AM

The GM T5 has an 18 mount and the shifter is farther back than the Ford tailhousing. That's something to keep in mind. It might be worth while to get the adapter and use the Ford T5. If you don't need a high torque trans you can go with the non-WC version and save a bunch of money.

It is possible to mount the Ford tailhousing on a GM case. You could save money by getting a non-WC GM case and a non-WC Ford T5 (If you don't need the extra torque) and swap the internals. From what I know the WC bearings will not work in a non-WC case and neither will the WC mainshaft. The non-WCs go for pretty cheap. That's what I'd do if I was using a mildly built Rover V8.


1MGBV8
Paul Waters

(13 posts)

Registered:
10/24/2007 03:12PM

Main British Car:


Re: T5 WC Ford vs GM
Posted by: 1MGBV8
Date: April 15, 2008 11:53PM

Thanks for the information. No I don't have a bell housing. I was going to go to D&D for that once I get a trans. I have a line on a non-WC trans for $300 which is in my budget. I just didn't want to be changing it out after a few months.
I have heard that the WC's have a plate on the front instead of a softplug . I have a line on a WC but it does not appear to have a plate but instead a softplug.


Moderator
Curtis Jacobson
Portland Oregon
(4411 posts)

Registered:
10/12/2007 02:16AM

Main British Car:
71 MGBGT, Buick 215

authors avatar
Re: T5 WC Ford vs GM
Posted by: Moderator
Date: April 16, 2008 09:39AM

You might find this article helpful for identifying which specific version of the T5 you're looking at:

[www.britishv8.org]

Someday I'd like to enlarge the article to include shifter-location dimensions, more photos, etc.


NixVegaGT
Nicolas Wiederhold
Minneapolis, MN
(659 posts)

Registered:
10/16/2007 05:30AM

Main British Car:
'73 Vega GT 4.9L Rover/Buick Stroker

authors avatar
Re: T5 WC Ford vs GM
Posted by: NixVegaGT
Date: April 16, 2008 05:38PM

That is a great article. I should have suggested it too. Here's a link to my T5 page too. I've got a couple of pix of that plug vs. bearing on the front of the trans:

[www.cardomain.com]

If it doesn't have the exposed bearing cap it is not a WC T5.


BMC
Brian Mc Cullough
Forest Lake, Minnesota, USA
(380 posts)

Registered:
10/30/2007 02:27AM

Main British Car:
1980 MGB '95 3.4L 'L32' SFI V6, GM V6T5 & 3.42 Limi

authors avatar
Re: T5 WC Ford vs GM
Posted by: BMC
Date: April 17, 2008 12:13AM

The GM Camaro shifter is (I BELIEVE) 1" further rearward of the Ford but the ford input shaft is something more than 5/8" and less than 1" longer than the GM meaning that with an adapter to install it, your moving the system out by about the difference of the shifter location thus I ASSUME the shifter location is almost null and void.

The S10 tailhousing is 9" further forward of the Camaro, so dont go there with an MG.

A few other issues, with a Ford T5, you may need to change a few extra pieces to get an HTOB or any other type of release bearing to fit. My bet would be that the Ford is far easier to find but piece-mealing things together may cost more or take more time. Written by a guy who has not had direct experience with the Ford but have studied them in pictures and have helped to convert a few via telephone to our systems.

-BMC. (The Educated Guess guy in this case)



MGBV8
Carl Floyd
Kingsport, TN
(3789 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 11:32PM

Main British Car:
1979 MGB, Buick 215

authors avatar
Re: T5 WC Ford vs GM
Posted by: MGBV8
Date: April 17, 2008 08:46AM

Thanks, Nicholas.

That's the ID pic Paul needed.


http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/5/web/2357000-2357999/2357894_187_full.jpg


1MGBV8
Paul Waters

(13 posts)

Registered:
10/24/2007 03:12PM

Main British Car:


Re: T5 WC Ford vs GM
Posted by: 1MGBV8
Date: April 19, 2008 11:41PM

Thanks Nicholas. Carl is right I found a T5 on e-bay and had the seller send me a picture of the front. It has those same flange features.
Another feature someone told me about is the trans vent. The WC T5's have a hose and the NON-WC have a small plastic vent. Don't know for sure if this holds. The picture on this trans showed a hose for the vent.
On to the rear end. GM vs Ford?


NixVegaGT
Nicolas Wiederhold
Minneapolis, MN
(659 posts)

Registered:
10/16/2007 05:30AM

Main British Car:
'73 Vega GT 4.9L Rover/Buick Stroker

authors avatar
Re: T5 WC Ford vs GM
Posted by: NixVegaGT
Date: April 21, 2008 09:13AM

The WC I found had a hose hooked up to a plastic elbow. That's the only one I can speak to.


ex-tyke
Graham Creswick
Chatham, Ontario, Canada
(1085 posts)

Registered:
10/25/2007 11:17AM

Main British Car:
1976 MGB Ford 302

authors avatar
Re: T5 WC Ford vs GM
Posted by: ex-tyke
Date: April 21, 2008 02:53PM

Here's a photo of my T5/Olds 215 and the vent hose setup that Paul talks about. This T5 is a WC from an '89 Camaro.
T5 GM Xsmn.JPG


NixVegaGT
Nicolas Wiederhold
Minneapolis, MN
(659 posts)

Registered:
10/16/2007 05:30AM

Main British Car:
'73 Vega GT 4.9L Rover/Buick Stroker

authors avatar
Re: T5 WC Ford vs GM
Posted by: NixVegaGT
Date: April 22, 2008 07:08PM

What did you do about the strange 18 mount?


ex-tyke
Graham Creswick
Chatham, Ontario, Canada
(1085 posts)

Registered:
10/25/2007 11:17AM

Main British Car:
1976 MGB Ford 302

authors avatar
Re: T5 WC Ford vs GM
Posted by: ex-tyke
Date: April 23, 2008 09:18AM

Nicolas,
D&D sells a wedge-shaped bracket that brings the GM xsmn mount back to level.


MGBV8
Carl Floyd
Kingsport, TN
(3789 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 11:32PM

Main British Car:
1979 MGB, Buick 215

authors avatar
Re: T5 WC Ford vs GM
Posted by: MGBV8
Date: April 23, 2008 09:27AM

Easy to fab one, as well.


NixVegaGT
Nicolas Wiederhold
Minneapolis, MN
(659 posts)

Registered:
10/16/2007 05:30AM

Main British Car:
'73 Vega GT 4.9L Rover/Buick Stroker

authors avatar
Re: T5 WC Ford vs GM
Posted by: NixVegaGT
Date: April 23, 2008 09:55PM

Got it. I loaded up my T5 with the engine and welded in the engine mounts. I've to the T5 in place and put on the Ford Tailhousing. I figured out that using the F-body shifter on the Ford tailhousing moves the shifter location about 2 1/2" farther forward. Here's a couple pix.
DSC01933.jpg

It will mount up with some fabrication. Now all I have to account for is having the shifter skewed away from me at 18. LOL! SO more fabrication to do. It is interesting. I'll post the shifter changes when I get to it. Hope it helps. Here's something interesting. The Ford tailhousing mounted on the GM main case causes the mount to sit at about 3 or so from level. LOL! so I have to fabricate a shallow wedge shape for that. It is better for me than the Camaro tailhousing because it puts the shifter so far back.
DSC01932.jpg



MGBV8
Carl Floyd
Kingsport, TN
(3789 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 11:32PM

Main British Car:
1979 MGB, Buick 215

authors avatar
Re: T5 WC Ford vs GM
Posted by: MGBV8
Date: April 23, 2008 10:14PM

I used the D & D a/c engine mounts & a '91 Camaro T-5. The shifter came up only 3/4" from dead center.


MECHANIST
Bill LUNBOM

(17 posts)

Registered:
01/26/2008 03:21PM

Main British Car:


Re: T5 WC Ford vs GM
Posted by: MECHANIST
Date: April 24, 2008 10:20PM

Very helpful thread. I have a 215 going into a GT6 and a Camaro NWC T5. The shifter location with this setup comes out about 4 inches farther to the rear than I would like. so, if I understand what I see in this thread, I should get a Mustang tailshaft housing to put on the camaro trans and use the Camaro shifter. What does that involve? Does the shift shaft need to be changed also?
A separate issue is the clutch. The Camaro T5 has a 26 spline input. The 215 Olds flywheel accomodates a 9 1/2 clutch. I can't find a 9 1/2" disk with a 26 spline hub. I have on hand a brand new 10 1/2" clutch set that I think could be used if I modify the Olds flywheel. Those familiar with those flywheels will know that they have a rim on the clutch face side. The rim would have to be machined off or reduced in thickness to accomodate the larger PP. I wonder why there was a rim. Anyone know? Incidently, I have two flywheels on hand. One is thicker. Hoping for some comments and advice.

MECHANIST


Moderator
Curtis Jacobson
Portland Oregon
(4411 posts)

Registered:
10/12/2007 02:16AM

Main British Car:
71 MGBGT, Buick 215

authors avatar
Re: T5 WC Ford vs GM
Posted by: Moderator
Date: April 25, 2008 02:38AM

Quote:
I can't find a 9 1/2" disk with a 26 spline hub.
I used to use a clutch disc from the small late-80's Mercedes sedan. (I don't remember the model number.) As I recall, the outside diameter was closer to 9.25", but it worked fine.

Quote:
I have on hand a brand new 10 1/2" clutch set that I think could be used if I modify the Olds flywheel. Those familiar with those flywheels will know that they have a rim on the clutch face side. The rim would have to be machined off or reduced in thickness to accomodate the larger PP. I wonder why there was a rim. Anyone know?
Then I had a machinist friend remove the outer rim from my flywheel. The car is a lot more fun to drive with a lighter weight flywheel. In terms of flywheel effectiveness - also know as "moment of inertia" - there are two issues. The mass of the flywheel is one. The average distance of the mass from the center of rotation is the other. By putting more iron further from the center of rotation (in a heavy ring around the outside), Buick/Olds engineers made the flywheel extra effective. Of course, your GT6 will be a whole lot lighter weight and easier to launch than an Olds F85, so you'll be fine with a lighter flywheel. Ideally you should have your flywheel rebalanced after lightening it, but I didn't bother, and got away with it without noticing vibration problems.


NixVegaGT
Nicolas Wiederhold
Minneapolis, MN
(659 posts)

Registered:
10/16/2007 05:30AM

Main British Car:
'73 Vega GT 4.9L Rover/Buick Stroker

authors avatar
Re: T5 WC Ford vs GM
Posted by: NixVegaGT
Date: April 25, 2008 10:04AM

I don't know if there is anybody else doing the Ford Tailshaft housing on the GM case so I don't know where to point you for other resources but I can give you input based on what I've discovered so far on my install:

I know the output on the mainshaft is the same between the two so the drive shaft should work. I haven't tried this yet though and I'm not totally certain the bushing diameter for the driveshaft is the same. I'll double check that this weekend and post my finding.

The shifter itself has to be modified to have the stick come out of the trans upright. With the shifter bolted onto the Ford tailhousing it skews away at 18. LOL! So it is necessary to chop off the stick and weld it at the corrected angle. There might be a shifter out there that does this already. If guys are putting them into their MGs then there is probably a shifter setup for this. The only other mod is to make a sheet metal extension on the back of the shifter base to cover the rest of the top of the shifter housing on the Ford tailhousing. Make sense?

Yes, you also need the shorter Ford shift rod. I'm pretty sure the cover end is identical to the GM cover/shift forks. Still checking that to be certain. I'd be surprised though.

It won't fix the 4" difference but it will to 2 1/2" farther forward.

I'm pretty sure the 26-spline unit is the right length. I think the 14-spline unit is longer I'll double check that this weekend too.


MGBV8
Carl Floyd
Kingsport, TN
(3789 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 11:32PM

Main British Car:
1979 MGB, Buick 215

authors avatar
Re: T5 WC Ford vs GM
Posted by: MGBV8
Date: April 28, 2008 10:37AM

Nicolas,

Does the Camaro shifter work on a Ford tailhousing? If so, use an S10 shifter (you will need to shorten it). THe S10 shifter is straight & has a shorter throw as a bonus.
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