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tips, technology, tools and techniques related to vehicle driveline components

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BuddyHammond
Larry C. "Buddy&a Hammond Jr.
Stone Mountain, Georgia USA
(5 posts)

Registered:
08/28/2012 07:37AM

Main British Car:
1969 MGC Roadster Ford V8

Thoughts and Recommendations on Dry Sump Oil Pumps
Posted by: BuddyHammond
Date: November 01, 2012 09:54AM

I am progressing on my 1969 MGC V8 Project (reference EngineSwap Forum @ MGExperience). Progress is a bit slow due to changes in my construction plan. This brings me to my posting here. My engine, Ford V8 Crate Motor, was ordered with Ford rear sump pan. The pan depth in the rear is problem for ground clearance. I decided to go to Dry Sump Oiling. I now have a Kevko Dry Sump Pan as well as an old Moon Eyes Oil tank. The missing component is the Oil Pump. I have zero experience with Dry Sump and I am seeing a ton of different manufacturers as well as variety of pumps, multiple scavenge ports, etc.
Finally, To my point. I am interested in any recommendations or commentary Y'All might have regarding Pump Selection. I am interested in most 'Bang for the Buck'. While I don't want to skimp on 'the' critical part/heart of the engine I am choking a bit on the prices of the New Pumps. Many at $1,000 and Up. Has anyone used a Nutter Racing NRC Pump ? Can I avoid a separate vacuum pump ? Thank You.


roverman
Art Gertz
Winchester, CA.
(3188 posts)

Registered:
04/24/2009 11:02AM

Main British Car:
74' Jensen Healy, 79 Huff. GT 1, 74 MGB Lotus 907,2L

Re: Thoughts and Recommendations on Dry Sump Oil Pumps
Posted by: roverman
Date: November 01, 2012 11:49AM

Buddy, Welcome. Glad to hear your using a dry sump .Most racers-here, don't use dry sumps. I consider this, fear of the unknown, or maybe their not fast enough, to need one ? My Huffaker GT-1, was built with a (4) stage and produces plenty of crankcase vacum, no additional vacum pump need. I bought a "locked-up" Petersen four stage, for parts, at a swap,($80.). It had been assembled/ packed with white grease, and as it sat over time, the grease hardened and locked the pump.Bottom line, cleaned, re-assembled and woks perfect. Dry sump parts are on e-bay/Nascar parts, all the time. Scrutinize carefully, the description and and the sellers rating. You will need a (3) stage/minimum, with (1) syphon in the lifter valley. Try to get a drysump lay-out from Ford Racing. IMHO. Good Luck, roverman.


Moderator
Curtis Jacobson
Portland Oregon
(4551 posts)

Registered:
10/12/2007 02:16AM

Main British Car:
71 MGBGT, Buick 215

authors avatar
Re: Thoughts and Recommendations on Dry Sump Oil Pumps
Posted by: Moderator
Date: November 01, 2012 09:55PM

I wish I could help. There are so many suppliers and so many options from each of them! Among the cars on BritishRacecar.com I know ARE, Stock Car Products, Weaver Brothers, and Peterson are all represented. The only one of those companies know anything about is Peterson... they're located here in the Denver area and they seem very friendly. I hope to visit them in the next few weeks.


DiDueColpi
Fred Key
West coast - Canada
(1355 posts)

Registered:
05/14/2010 03:06AM

Main British Car:
I really thought that I'd be an action figure by now!

authors avatar
Re: Thoughts and Recommendations on Dry Sump Oil Pumps
Posted by: DiDueColpi
Date: November 02, 2012 05:21AM

Hey Buddy, (sorry couldn't help it)
What is the intended use of your car?
Are you racing it? Street, or just for racoon value?
As Art will tell you, I don't like dry sumps unless there are no other alternatives.
They cost power, add complexity and increase failure margins by several factors.
If you are racing, the fewer stages that you can get away with, the better. Every extra stage costs HP and adds weight. The biggest advantage is getting the engine lower in the chassis. But to be useful you will need at least a small dual disc clutch, a rotated trans and a cut down bellhousing.
Cornering and acceleration forces need to be very high to justify the added complexity. Having said that not one of my race cars currently have a dry sump. And every one holds a class record.
On a street car I don't see any reason at all.
For the racoon factor, "go for it" put in as many stages as you want. Add in the braided hoses and polished tanks and you're good for show.
Cheers
Fred



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/02/2012 09:03PM by DiDueColpi.


roverman
Art Gertz
Winchester, CA.
(3188 posts)

Registered:
04/24/2009 11:02AM

Main British Car:
74' Jensen Healy, 79 Huff. GT 1, 74 MGB Lotus 907,2L

Re: Thoughts and Recommendations on Dry Sump Oil Pumps
Posted by: roverman
Date: November 02, 2012 12:17PM

Buddy and clan, if this motor is to get "any" street use, then a conventional dry sump system, is likely not best. Having said that, Corvette and 911 Porsche have been using them, on their street vehicle, for years. A reasonable compromise, might be an external mounted conventional, single stage pump. Clockwise rotation required, and belt driven off the crank. This would use a custom pick-up, through the side of the pan,(bulkhead fitting), to the pump, mounted along side.This allows a very short siphon tract-a good thing. Aviad and others have some crafty, diagonally mounted wet-sump designs, with traps doors that work about as well as possible, for wet sumps. IMHO, roverman.


DC Townsend
David Townsend
Vermont
(406 posts)

Registered:
11/21/2007 12:22PM

Main British Car:
'78 B (almost done) 30-over SBF, dry sump

authors avatar
Re: Thoughts and Recommendations on Dry Sump Oil Pumps
Posted by: DC Townsend
Date: November 02, 2012 05:07PM

I'm running a dry sump in my street car, primarily to get the motor as low as I could but also (and mostly) because I had never built a dry sump motor (have owned several but never built one) and took this opportunity to do it. I have a Canton pan and Weaver 3-stage pump. The biggest engineering challenge is the oil tank. There really isn't room under the hood so mine went in the boot.

Unless you're doing this purely for the learning, I don't know that I'd recommend it for a street car. It's not particularly inexpensive to build a system. Sure, you can buy pumps, tanks, and pans cheap enough but that's not where the expense is...it's in the fittings and hose. You'll easily spend at least as twice as much on plumbing it as you do on buying the major components. Then there's the whole front engine dress challenge...as in where does the pump go.

All that said, there are pics of dry-sump motor sitting in the engine bay in my project journasl where there are a number of before and after shots of the motor in/out of the car that might provide some reference. i started off with the pump at the bottom on the passenger side but eventually ended up with it on the top passenger side. Not the ideal location (they all leak).

[forum.britishv8.org] - Part II
[forum.britishv8.org] - Part I
MGB-heart.jpg



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/29/2012 05:44AM by DC Townsend.


WedgeWorks1
Mike Perkins
Ellicott City, Maryland
(460 posts)

Registered:
07/06/2008 08:07AM

Main British Car:
1980 Triumph TR8 3.5 Litre Rover V8

authors avatar
Re: Thoughts and Recommendations on Dry Sump Oil Pumps
Posted by: WedgeWorks1
Date: November 03, 2012 06:11AM

I know the Group 44 #4 TR8 at Watkin Glen a few years ago due to a dry sump/oiling issue let go on the track and was flagged for trying to kill Mosquitoes! This was the result of being at Montery Historic Races prior and with a bad start up process. I gave the dry sump a bunch of thought and with a Rover V8 its really expensive to do it. In the end I went with a Baffled and expanded wet sump pan that was 1/4 the dry sump cost. Having a Ford engine you should be able to find a road race baffled wet sump pan without any problems!



DC Townsend
David Townsend
Vermont
(406 posts)

Registered:
11/21/2007 12:22PM

Main British Car:
'78 B (almost done) 30-over SBF, dry sump

authors avatar
Re: Thoughts and Recommendations on Dry Sump Oil Pumps
Posted by: DC Townsend
Date: November 04, 2012 06:07AM

"In the end I went with a Baffled and expanded wet sump pan that was 1/4 the dry sump cost."

Based on my experience, that statement is just about right on. My pan (new) pump (The pumps are very easy to rebuild so, unless you're just into new parts, save some money, you'll need it.) and tank (both used) set me back about $400 for all three. Not bad really. But then you get to add in the brackets (Jones Racing) - $75, the pulley (Jones) - $48, the belt (HRP World) - $40, the breather (Jones) $65, 2 AN fittings for the pan, 1 for the breather, 1 for the oil filter adapter, 4 for the remote oil filter plate, three for the oil tank, 6 AN bulkhead fittings (if your tank is the boot), 6 straight and 6 90 for the lines after they pass through the bulkheads (all from Speedway Motors) - about $20 on average per fitting for about $400, a return line cooler (Summit) - $50, and then (in my case) about 40' of AN12 line plus line reinforcement (so the lines don't collapse) at about $6/foot or so and you end up with a $1400-$1500 oiling system. You could buy any one of several very nice baffled road race (Milodion, Kevko, Aviad, etc.) wet sump pans for less than $500, bolt it up and go.

Then there is all of the plumbing fun - routing the lines, figuring out where the pump, remote filter, breather, and tank will go, etc., it's not a project for the faint of heart but i'd do it again in a heartbeat.

And the whole deal about it lowering the motor is not entirely accurate. Yes, obviously, it does lower the engine in the car and, in theory, (measurements alone) you should be able to drop in a dry a sump 302 without having to notch the crossmember. A look through my build blog will show you that it's just not so unless you're willing to have a considerable bubble in the hood - I would think you'd need about 3" or so (minimum) unless you modify the crossmember. Even then, I needed about an inch more in the back of my modified MGC hood to clear my Wieind intake and Autolite 4100 carb...and that's with a 2 1/2" drop air cleaner with an 1 1/2" filter that I spent a considerable time modifying to clear everything.

If, after reading this, you're determined to push ahead, PM me and I'll share my my parts list with you as well as take some pics of the details of the install so, at the least, you won't have to cover the same ground I did.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/29/2012 05:45AM by DC Townsend.


MGBV8
Carl Floyd
Kingsport, TN
(4468 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 11:32PM

Main British Car:
1979 MGB Buick 215

authors avatar
Re: Thoughts and Recommendations on Dry Sump Oil Pumps
Posted by: MGBV8
Date: November 04, 2012 11:21AM

Great thread.

When I was running Toyo RA-1 tires, I considered going dry sump. I couldn't justify the price for what it would achieve. Reading the comments here, I can finally let that idea go for good.

Mike, where did you get that sump? Build your own?


WedgeWorks1
Mike Perkins
Ellicott City, Maryland
(460 posts)

Registered:
07/06/2008 08:07AM

Main British Car:
1980 Triumph TR8 3.5 Litre Rover V8

authors avatar
Re: Thoughts and Recommendations on Dry Sump Oil Pumps
Posted by: WedgeWorks1
Date: November 05, 2012 06:49AM

I pulled some strings and had a guy modify one of my extra pans that had a run in with a curb. I set up a block with headers, clutch slave and even a template of the TR8 sub frame. It was mostly made of dirt/cirlce track Chevy baffles and plates. This was the same shop that did my rollcage too.


DC Townsend
David Townsend
Vermont
(406 posts)

Registered:
11/21/2007 12:22PM

Main British Car:
'78 B (almost done) 30-over SBF, dry sump

authors avatar
Re: Thoughts and Recommendations on Dry Sump Oil Pumps
Posted by: DC Townsend
Date: November 05, 2012 08:47AM

At Buddy's request, I sent him information on my dry sump installation but, for others who might be following this thread, I thought I would post here as well.

Here are some photos of my dry sump system (in no particular order). I started off planning to have low passenger side mount for the pump using a Jones bracket but discovered that it would have taken some serious re-engineering of the front cross member to accommodate the location. I'll add that, because I'm also running power steering, my set-up took a bit of engineering to make everything work. At a minimum here's what you'll need to think about to install the dry sump system:
1) Moving the radiator as far forward as possible. I've attached a shot of the modification to the front cross piece I made. You'll need
every fraction you can get so the drive mandrel will fit.
2) No matter who's drive mandrel you get, it will need to be machined to fit flush to the harmonic balancer and/or shortened. Jones
Racing may sell a mandrel that will work without machining and I'm pretty sure they will make it whatever length you need.
3) Whether you mount the pump on the driver's or the passenger side, there are no stock mounting plates that will work so be
prepared to make them. I use 1/4" T6061. It's plenty strong enough and relatively easy to work with basic shop tools.
4) You'll need the smallest, clockable starter you can find (I'm using a Power Master) in order to get it to clear the line bungs on the
oil pan. There are a few pans out there with the bungs on the driver's side but they're ghastly expensive. (Aviad has one I believe).
5) You'll need to route your headers through the fender wells to avoid proximity to the oil lines coming to the pump.

This should be enough to get anyone contemplating a dry sump system for their 302 in enough trouble for now. Most of these were taken before the plumbing was started so I'll round up some more to give you and idea of how to route things. More to come.

front-_xmember.jpg
Relieving the front cross member so the radiator can be moved forward to help clear the oil pump drive mandrel.

oilpan1.jpg
oilpan2.jpg
I used a Canton pan but really any decent dry sump pan will work fine for a system like this that's designed primarily for fast road use and the occasional track day.

oil-pump-drive.jpg
Here's the modified drive mandrel installed. It's been shortened and the back has been machine nearly flush (just enough left to engage the harmonic balancer so it centers correctly). You can also see my modified stock water pump pulley. An important part of creating enough room for the mandrel is being able to move the pulleys as far back as you can get them. Essential to this is an early Ford harmonic balancer (Speedway Motors) which saves about 5/8" over the stock piece. I'll have to dig up the part I used for the crank pulley but I'm thinking it was a stock 302 pulley. The water pump pulley is a stock 302 mated to a 351 short nosed pump. The centering hole needs to be machined out a slight bit for it to fit over the 351s pump shaft but, otherwise, bolts right up.

More shots below.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/05/2012 09:40AM by DC Townsend.


DC Townsend
David Townsend
Vermont
(406 posts)

Registered:
11/21/2007 12:22PM

Main British Car:
'78 B (almost done) 30-over SBF, dry sump

authors avatar
Re: Thoughts and Recommendations on Dry Sump Oil Pumps
Posted by: DC Townsend
Date: November 05, 2012 08:53AM

x-member1.jpg
x-member2.jpg
Cross member still needed to be modified to get the motor low enough to keep everything under the smallest modified bonnet I could make.

OP-mounted.jpg
Here's the oil pump installed on the passenger side. Note the bracket does not have the steady arm attached yet.

alternator-mount.jpg
To accommodate everything hanging off the front of the motor, I moved the alternator to the driver side and used a stock early Ford alternator bracket. The alternator bolts through to the block via a handmade lower bracket. Upper bracket is bone stock. Alternator is a 65-90 amp mini-race type. It will work in this application as there are no accessories being driven other than the charging system.

Continued below.


DC Townsend
David Townsend
Vermont
(406 posts)

Registered:
11/21/2007 12:22PM

Main British Car:
'78 B (almost done) 30-over SBF, dry sump

authors avatar
Re: Thoughts and Recommendations on Dry Sump Oil Pumps
Posted by: DC Townsend
Date: November 05, 2012 09:04AM

fan-clearance.jpg
This will give you an idea of just how tight the fit is.

engine-bay1.jpg
With the motor in, the pump clears the fender by about 2"' with room left for adjustment to keep the drive belt tight. You can also see the oil pump steady arm in this shot. The arm was made by reversing the bends a stock early Ford upper alternator mounting arm and mounting one end through one of the water pump bolts.

itfits3.jpg
Radiator is early Ford Mustang conversion style with the inlet/outlets in the correct locations for the 302. Fan and shroud were from Mustangs Plus and were designed for the radiator although some trimming needed to be done on the shroud to have it fit between the frame rails. In the pic the clearance between the fan and the drive mandrel looks closer than it is. The fan has been moved up a bit basically creating some offset so the mandrel sits below the fan center.

MGB_cockpit_pass.jpg
If you look close on the top of the sill you can see my oil lines running from the boot to the front bulkhead. I have absolutely no good reason why I routed them inside rather than outside. I still need to scare up a shot of the oil tank.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/05/2012 09:06AM by DC Townsend.


DC Townsend
David Townsend
Vermont
(406 posts)

Registered:
11/21/2007 12:22PM

Main British Car:
'78 B (almost done) 30-over SBF, dry sump

authors avatar
Re: Thoughts and Recommendations on Dry Sump Oil Pumps
Posted by: DC Townsend
Date: November 05, 2012 09:34AM

MGB_oiltank.jpg
Oil tank is an older model, baffled, for your typical dirt or circle track car. I choose the shape size based on where I wanted it to fit. You can still find this style but the round ones are what's popular today. This is a pre-plumbing shot so the all of the lines aren't in place. Top line is the breather line. The upper line on the side of the tank is the return line, the lower line is the outflow. The return routes through the boot floor and through a line cooler that is attached to the bottom of the floor pan.

PS-OP-mount1.jpg
This shot is out of order but gives you the detail on the combination oil drive and PS pump mounting plate. Spacers are used to obtain the correct front/back alignment with the pulleys.

I'm looking for a shot of the breather and will post it up when found. If anyone has any questions on how or why I did something, fire away. I'll do my best to answer.


DC Townsend
David Townsend
Vermont
(406 posts)

Registered:
11/21/2007 12:22PM

Main British Car:
'78 B (almost done) 30-over SBF, dry sump

authors avatar
Re: Thoughts and Recommendations on Dry Sump Oil Pumps
Posted by: DC Townsend
Date: November 05, 2012 09:52AM

Found a couple of breather shots and one more of the inside line routing.

oil breather bottom.jpg
topview.jpg

First shot shows you how the breather (Moroso) comes through the bulkhead and into the passenger compartment ahead of the foot rest. I'll either need to attach and route a drain hose through the kick area or just be careful when I need to bleed the breather. In the second shot, you can see the breather at the top left. I mounted it using the stock mount supplied by Moroso. Originally, I had the tank mounted outside but found it was going to interfere with some of the other ancillaries. I think this gives you a good idea of how challenging getting all of the pieces to fit is.

Pass-footbox.jpg
Last is a another shot of the inside line routing.

When I get another chance, I'll dig out some images of the remote filter mount installation and start posting shots of the plumbing. It will provide motivation to finish things up. Hope all of this helps.



roverman
Art Gertz
Winchester, CA.
(3188 posts)

Registered:
04/24/2009 11:02AM

Main British Car:
74' Jensen Healy, 79 Huff. GT 1, 74 MGB Lotus 907,2L

Re: Thoughts and Recommendations on Dry Sump Oil Pumps
Posted by: roverman
Date: November 05, 2012 12:25PM

Buddy, If you decide you must go dry sump, you might look at the Corvette systems. There are plenty of crashed/parted-out Vettes. This reduces the component cost. Perhaps some are adaptable to the sbf ? Good Luck, roverman.


DC Townsend
David Townsend
Vermont
(406 posts)

Registered:
11/21/2007 12:22PM

Main British Car:
'78 B (almost done) 30-over SBF, dry sump

authors avatar
Re: Thoughts and Recommendations on Dry Sump Oil Pumps
Posted by: DC Townsend
Date: November 05, 2012 01:34PM

Art,

That's where I started, thinking I would try and cut down on engineering I wasn't all that familiar with. But, after having the opportunity to examine the 'Vette system in detail, determined that it was going to take more time and effort to make it work than it would be to just start from scratch. The bigger challenge than the basic system components is in getting the whole drive end of things short enough to fit the radiator and fan while maintaining a reasonable motor set back. Bill Guzman's adjustable SBF engine mounts are absolutely essential to a successful dry sump system.

The folks at both Aviad and Jones Racing were also instrumental (and experienced) in helping to build a "rational" dry sump system for the SBF.

BTW, how's that Jensen coming along? Does it still, at least, resemble the rendering?

David


roverman
Art Gertz
Winchester, CA.
(3188 posts)

Registered:
04/24/2009 11:02AM

Main British Car:
74' Jensen Healy, 79 Huff. GT 1, 74 MGB Lotus 907,2L

Re: Thoughts and Recommendations on Dry Sump Oil Pumps
Posted by: roverman
Date: November 05, 2012 07:13PM

David., AC 6.1 is waiting patiently for the Huffaker TR8 to be restored and raceworthy,(April, 2013 first race). The shape of the Huffaker fenders, and Team III wheels for the Healey, look even better in real life. The look is close to Turbo 911's. I just bought "another" set of Ti, ZO6 exhaust, mufflers with tips. Having integral exhaust pipes/flanges, should aid the installation. I must start racing, while I still can. Thanks for asking, roverman.


DC Townsend
David Townsend
Vermont
(406 posts)

Registered:
11/21/2007 12:22PM

Main British Car:
'78 B (almost done) 30-over SBF, dry sump

authors avatar
Re: Thoughts and Recommendations on Dry Sump Oil Pumps
Posted by: DC Townsend
Date: November 06, 2012 08:39AM

Art,

I know you're not big on taking pictures but sure would be cool to see the fenders, wheels, and progress. How far along is the TR8?

DT


roverman
Art Gertz
Winchester, CA.
(3188 posts)

Registered:
04/24/2009 11:02AM

Main British Car:
74' Jensen Healy, 79 Huff. GT 1, 74 MGB Lotus 907,2L

Re: Thoughts and Recommendations on Dry Sump Oil Pumps
Posted by: roverman
Date: November 06, 2012 12:25PM

I need to update the Huffaker in the "race car" section. Onward, roverman.
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