Dan Jones Dan Jones St. Louis, Missouri (280 posts) Registered: 07/21/2008 03:32PM Main British Car: 1980 Triumph TR8 3.5L Rover V8 |
Buick V6 info
> Edelbrock claims that their manifold can get about a 50 hp gain.
That wasn't due to the intake manifold alone. Their test engine consisted of an even-fire 231 Buick V6 with 1979 and up tall port heads, Edelbrock Performer intake manifold (p/n 5486), 500 CFM AFB carb, 1 1/2" primary diameter headers and Performer Plus cam (p/n 5487) with the following specs: 204/214 degrees duration @ 0.050" lift 280/290 degrees advertised duration 0.448" / 0.472" valve lift 112 degrees LSA, installed on a 107 degrees ICL Claimed idle vacuum is 15". > A 200 hp v6 sounds good to me. In their catalog, Edelbrock shows a comparison plot of their test engine and a stock engine but note they plot torque, not power. Eyeballing the plot, the peak torque is 220 ft-lbs at 3000 RPM. Plotting the torque for other RPM and converting to HP shows a peak power of around 167 HP between 4500 and 5000 RPM. Most of the Buick V6 intake manifolds, including GM's 4.1L Buick V6 four barrel, are single plane manifolds while the Edelbrock is a dual plane design. It's a little odd that Edelbrock chose to go with a dual plane. The dual plane design was designed to compensate for the adjacent cylinder firing reversion problem that non-flat plane crank 90 degree V8s suffer from. Being a V6, the Buick 231 doesn't have that problem. On of the TR7 guys did a fair bit of intake and carb testing on his Buick 4.1L V6 (had a Crane H-214/2867-12 cam and TR7 swap headers from John's Cars) and his opinion was the Kenne-Bell #1 Buick V6 4 barrel manifold was, by far, the best manifold available for the normally aspirated Buick V6. > I used to mess around with Buick V6s a bit and typed up some test data that you > may be interested in. It probably doesn't belong in the classifieds so I'll put > it in the Engine and Transmission Tech forum. Here's the info I mentioned. I typed it in way back when I was messing with the Buick V6. If you are building a normally aspirated Buick V6, try to get your hands on a copy of the Jim Ruggles Buick V6 Guide. Kenne Bell's V6 tech tips, the Buick Free Spirit Performance Guide, the SA Design V6 Performance book and Smokey Yunick's 5-step dyno test (Hot Rod magazine swap article) are also good reference material. Note the Kenne Bell's HP numbers below are estimates from drag strip testing. Dan Jones Smokey Yunick's 5-step dyno test 4.1L Buick V6 with stock 4 barrel intake and Qjet carb 152 HP Weiand intake manifold and Holley 600 CFM carb 170 HP Weiand headers 175 HP Crane H-214/2867-12 cam 202 HP Bowl port heads 230 HP Kenne Bell Level 1 Package HP HP Total Increase 125 -- Factory HP 231 V6 150 25 KB Number intake manifold 160 10 Holley 390 CFM carb 182 22 KB Mark 1 (dual pattern) cam kit 194 12 9.25:1 compression pistons 197 03 KB windage tray 200 03 KB oil pan 210 10 Mark 2 cam Kenne Bell Level 2 package 240 30 KB ported heads 245 05 KB needle bearing roller rockers 250 05 headers Kenne Bell drag testing (note: the info below has some tests from 1977 Skyhawk mixed in with 1979 Skyhawk tests). Test MPH ET HP 1 74.1 16.60 95 1979 Skyhawk w/KB oil pump kit and grooved main bearings, 7" slicks, stock gears, 2850lbs, 3050 lbs w/driver 2 75.0 16.50 100 KB flex fan and fan spacer kit 3 76.0 16.40 104 KB advance curve kit 4 76.5 16.10 104 4.10 gears with KB ring spacer 5 77.6 16.00 109 replace catalytic converter and muffler with KB parts 6 77.9 15.98 111 conventional 1 1/2" 3 tube headers 7 78.6 15.90 114 conventional 1 5/8" 3 tube headers 8 80.1 15.73 123 KB81031 1 5/8" 3-in-1 headers 9 83.3 15.34 137 KB Mark 1L cam kit (recommend KB roller timing chain, cam gasket kit and front cover seal) 10 84.3 15.23 142 KB Mark 1X cam kit (cut guides and install KB seals with 0.060" retainer clearance) 11 86.0 15.12 152 KB Mark 2X cam kit 12 no change Rhoads lifters Note: Cam and headers were tested with stock 2 barrel carb and intake. Had the 4 barrel carb and intake been tested first, increases would likely have been larger. 13 87.1 15.01 157 KB19904 oil pan, KB19801 windage tray 14 88.0 14.91 163 KB crank, water pump and alternator pulleys 15 90.2 14.70 174 KB Number 1 intake manifold with stock 2 barrel carb 16 92.5 14.56 187 KB Number 1 intake manifold with KB jetted 500 CFM Carter 17 93.0 14.50 190 KB Number 1 intake manifold with KB jetted 625 CFM Carter 18 92.0 14.60 184 KB Number 1 intake manifold with KB jetted 400 CFM Carter 19 91.0 14.70 178 Heat KB intake runners to same temperature as conventional manifold. 20 92.0 14.60 184 Cool runners 21 92.0 14.70 184 KB Number 1 intake manifold and KB jetted Holley 390 carb (recommend KB EGR block off plate, heat isolator gasket) 22 93.3 14.55 195 KB blocked off heat riser (gasket or plates) 23 92.0 14.70 184 install stock air cleaner 24 93.3 14.55 195 KB46007F polyester max-flo low profile air cleaner XX 94.1 14.41 196 Ram air (4" hose through headlight or hood scoop/cowl) Note this test had 400 CFM Carter and did not have blocked off heat risers 25 94.8 14.39 207 KB61003S budget forged pistons 10.2:1 compression ratio 26 94.8 14.39 207 KB50004 7000 RPM cast pistons 10.2:1 compression ratio 27 94.8 14.39 207 KB60003 Superlite forged pistons compression ratio 28 89.8 15.14 168 change to Edelbrock #5486 dual plane intake (same 6000 RPM shift points) 29 89.8 15.06 168 lower shift points to 5000 RPM 30 94.8 14.39 207 re-install KB Number 1 intake manifold 31 95.9 14.29 214 KB11804-KB11904 Stage 1 valves only 32 97.4 14.12 221 ported and polished high port heads w/KB Stage 1 valves 33 98.5 14.01 228 KB Mark 2R cam 34 no change Rhoads lifters 35 100.0 13.87 240 KB Mark 3R cam kit 36 no change KB Mark 3RS cam kit (same design as 3R but solid lifter) Note: 10.2:1 CR will run fine on 92 octane, use Rhoads lifters on Mark 2R or 3R cams to smooth out for street use 37 101.9 13.72 250 KB 12:1 compression ratio pistons 38 102.8 13.64 255 KB9301 roller rocker arms 39 102.8 13.04 255 10" x 29.5" slicks, 5.13:1 gears and Doug Nash 4 speed 40 103.7 12.93 263 KB aluminum pulleys Note: The above 12:1 compression engine can be run on the street but requires 100 octane fuel. The following tests are for a competition only vehicle. Engine was rebuilt with heavy duty block and rods, studs, MSD ignition, scattershield, steel flywheel, etc. Suspension was also optimized for drag race (Ron Cosner front and 4 link rear). 41 104.0 12.89 266 blueprinted engine 42 no change increase bearing and piston clearance 0.001" 43 106.1 12.59 278 KB Mark 5RS cam 44 109.4 12.31 304 KB82-7342 roller cam kit with Crane roller lifters 45 110.5 12.20 311 Mr. Gasket electric water pump kit 46 111.3 11.99 323 13:1 pistons 47 no change KB/Howards aluminum rods 48 no change install identical odd-fire engine 49 115.0 11.72 358 install identical 252" engine 50 124.0 10.80 442 Ported Stage 2 heads, KB roller rockers, head studs, cam kit, 3-in-1 headers, Edelbrock Stage 2 intake manifold 51 125.0 10.71 451 Change to 750 Carter or Holley 52 no change Milodon gear drive 53 122.1 11.00 Powerglide tranmissions and 7" high stall converter 54 126.4 10.60 493 276" stroker V6 with powerglide 55 129.0 10.30 493 Doug Nash 5 speed transmission Note: KB ultimately turned 9.18 @ 146.5 MPH in 2400 lb car, breaking the NHRA record |
Moderator Curtis Jacobson Portland Oregon (4577 posts) Registered: 10/12/2007 02:16AM Main British Car: 71 MGBGT, Buick 215 |
Re: Buick V6 info
Lots of good stuff to chew on there! One humble little question. Kenne Bell reportedly picked up ~3hp by fitting their oil pan even after they'd previously fitted their windage tray. How does that work?
With all the Buick V6s used in professional racing series, including for example Indy Lights and Camel GT, there must be tons upon tons upon tons of trick race-car tech available for these engines. Much better cylinder heads and slide-throttle EFI systems, for example? |
Re: Buick V6 info
Kenne Bell reportedly picked up ~3hp by fitting their oil pan even after they'd previously fitted their windage tray. How does that work?
Within the margin of error for the dyno? Also, I would think they started with a freshly built engine so you'd see minor gains from engine run in. With all the Buick V6s used in professional racing series, including for example Indy Lights and Camel GT Google "Ohio George Montgomery". His shop is still in operation. Don't forget NASCAR Grand National and circle track Late Models, nobody competes with those anymore. Hell, you can BUY a 600hp, normally aspirated, push rod Buick v6 from out of an old Grand National team. Just keep your eyes peeled on RacingJunk.com. I know a guy down in Fla who still exhibits a v6 powered Grand National circle track car every so often. |
Moderator Curtis Jacobson Portland Oregon (4577 posts) Registered: 10/12/2007 02:16AM Main British Car: 71 MGBGT, Buick 215 |
Re: Buick V6 info
Good tips. Ohio George's website quotes 425hp for their Indy Lights spec crate-motors. (No price listed.) To fit in an MGB or a TR7, I'm thinking a hole through the bonnet would be required.
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Re: Buick V6 info
Eh, I may have gotten a little over excited saying '600'.
Jim Ruggles says 530hp out of 274ci. [www.teambuick.com] Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/15/2013 03:30PM by Todd McCreary. |
Dan Jones Dan Jones St. Louis, Missouri (280 posts) Registered: 07/21/2008 03:32PM Main British Car: 1980 Triumph TR8 3.5L Rover V8 |
Re: Buick V6 info
> Kenne Bell reportedly picked up ~3hp by fitting their oil pan even after
> they'd previously fitted their windage tray. How does that work? I assume it was a deep sump pan that gets the crank out of the oil. > Within the margin of error for the dyno? As noted above, those are not dyno numbers. They are derived from drag strip testing using a 1/4 mile calculator (based on trap speed). Because of the way they are derived, they fold what is an effect that applies across the rev range into an effective HP difference. > With all the Buick V6s used in professional racing series, including for > example Indy Lights and Camel GT, there must be tons upon tons upon tons of > trick race-car tech available for these engines. Much better cylinder heads > and slide-throttle EFI systems, for example? but they are two separate engine families sharing very little in common. Stage II blocks and heads had 6 bolts per cylinder. The blocks were cast on center and the heads have evenly spaced ports versus the paired of the street Buick V6 engines. Heads, intakes, blocks, cams, etc are all different. Dan Jones |
BlownMGB-V8 Jim Blackwood 9406 Gunpowder Rd., Florence, KY 41042 (6470 posts) Registered: 10/23/2007 12:59PM Main British Car: 1971 MGB Blown,Injected,Intercooled Buick 340/AA80E/JagIRS |
Re: Buick V6 info
Needle bearing rockers were worth 15 hp? How does that work? I'm quite sure it must not take that much to overcome the friction in pressure oiled plain bearings.
Jim |
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Re: Buick V6 info
Needle bearing rockers were worth 15 hp? How does that work?
Up the rocker ratio? |
Dan Jones Dan Jones St. Louis, Missouri (280 posts) Registered: 07/21/2008 03:32PM Main British Car: 1980 Triumph TR8 3.5L Rover V8 |
Re: Buick V6 info
> Needle bearing rockers were worth 15 hp?
Where do you see that, Jim? I show a 5 HP claimed increase (240 to 245 HP with the Level 2 package and 250 to 255 with KB9301). The claim is the stock Buick V6 rocker ratio is 1.55:1 and the roller rockers were 1.6:1. Dan Jones |
BlownMGB-V8 Jim Blackwood 9406 Gunpowder Rd., Florence, KY 41042 (6470 posts) Registered: 10/23/2007 12:59PM Main British Car: 1971 MGB Blown,Injected,Intercooled Buick 340/AA80E/JagIRS |
Re: Buick V6 info
You are right, I misread the numbers, and a change in rocker ratio certainly will affect the output.
Jim |
roverman Art Gertz Winchester, CA. (3188 posts) Registered: 04/24/2009 11:02AM Main British Car: 74' Jensen Healy, 79 Huff. GT 1, 74 MGB Lotus 907,2L |
Re: Buick V6 info, apples vs apples ?
Earlier Stage II blocks were cast as "off-center bores', similar to production bores. This offsets the rod approx .120", not your best choice for big hp., but necessary to cram offset journals in there, to make it even fire.This requires "H" beam rods and "bridged skirt" pistons, to live at higher outputs. Many formerly hi-$ stage II race parts, show up on ebay/etc. I have a future build of a 4.1L production block,(cheap), and stage II, on remaining components. This to be a streetable na. motor, transverse/mid mounted, in a 914. To say this should be exciting, is a given. Many new/used stage II parts, are a real bargain, if you know how to dig. The stage II heads will bolt on the production block, and will flow 340 cfm/int., by most skilled porters. You use 4 studs per bore, and quality mls gaskets, not too much compression/boost, and your good to go. Cheers, roverman.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/16/2013 02:16PM by roverman. |
roverman Art Gertz Winchester, CA. (3188 posts) Registered: 04/24/2009 11:02AM Main British Car: 74' Jensen Healy, 79 Huff. GT 1, 74 MGB Lotus 907,2L |
Re: Buick V6 info
LIkey, because of price, not here.More likely in "Yellow Bucket", or other Buick V6 forums. The production iron block, does quite well, whiht up-graded internals. Cheers, roverman.
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Richard/SIA Richard Brengman No. Nevada (401 posts) Registered: 01/17/2014 07:47PM Main British Car: 1969 Triumph GT6+ 225" Buick V6 |
Re: Buick V6 info
Pulled the cam from my 231" tonight.
It's a KB-MK2X. Anyone know what the specs might be? RPM range? KB site did me no good as he's into Fords and supercharging now. |
roverman Art Gertz Winchester, CA. (3188 posts) Registered: 04/24/2009 11:02AM Main British Car: 74' Jensen Healy, 79 Huff. GT 1, 74 MGB Lotus 907,2L |
Re: Buick V6 info
I "may" find an ol' catalog. I would consider converting to a good hyd. roller set-up. You would need to install the oem sheet metal "spyder", to retain the oem "dog bone" short body oem lifters. Cheers, roverman.
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Dan Jones Dan Jones St. Louis, Missouri (280 posts) Registered: 07/21/2008 03:32PM Main British Car: 1980 Triumph TR8 3.5L Rover V8 |
Re: Buick V6 info
> Pulled the cam from my 231" tonight. It's a KB-MK2X. Anyone know what the specs might be? RPM range?
278/280 degrees advertised duration, 0.478"/0.494" lift, 112 LSA. The Kenne Bell catalog says it has a 1500 to 6000 RPM range with a 7000 RPM maximum when using their lifters and matching springs. Sales blurb in the catalog says: "KB MARK 2X This is the maximum performance cam for lighter street vehicles with stick transmissions. Popular street/off-road cams. Lots of torque. An updated design of the famous Kenne Bell Mark 2 selected by Buick for the 1976 Indy Pace Car. Identical cam used in the KB prepared Dune Buick for Buick's TV commercials and magazine ads. Same cam I run in my 252" 4-speed Skyhawk. Quiet operation. Idles with a very slight lope at 900 RPM. Same Kenne Bell Hi-Lift, Hi-Torque, design as the Mark 1X but more midrange and top end power. Will rev to 7000. Best shift points for racing is 5500-6000. Must use Kenne Bell Springs and "No Wiggle" Retainers. O.K. with stock pistons. Pulls strong from 2000-6000. Designed to work best with the Kenne Bell Number 1 Manifold and KB44230 Carburetor. Broad torque range. Quick, crisp throttle response. Automatic transmissions need KB191V6SS 2500 High Stall Converter for best results." A scan of the Buick V6 cam page from the Kenne Bell catalog is here: [www.teambuick.com] That cam is one of the parts tested in the Kenne Bell tests I listed above. Also I think I still have a Kenne Bell Number 1 Buick V6 intake sitting on the shelf if anyone is interested. Dan Jones |
Richard/SIA Richard Brengman No. Nevada (401 posts) Registered: 01/17/2014 07:47PM Main British Car: 1969 Triumph GT6+ 225" Buick V6 |
Re: Buick V6 info
Thanks for the info.
Do you happen to know their recommended pre-load? And to really be a choosey beggar, recommended timing? Looks like I lucked out on the cam! Lifters are unmarked and I really do not want to dismantle the heads. I'm hoping the builder took KB's advice and got the complete set. I've sent the KB-1 intake I have out to be welded up enough on top for port matching to my "Tall Port" heads. From what I could see without adding some material I would not have enough metal on top. Might like to have another, what would you want for yours? For a "Road Race" engine this one seems pretty mild, lots of small things like a little head porting I would have done that he did not. Maybe not all bad as I'm barely going to be able to match up the stock ports. |
Dan Jones Dan Jones St. Louis, Missouri (280 posts) Registered: 07/21/2008 03:32PM Main British Car: 1980 Triumph TR8 3.5L Rover V8 |
Re: Buick V6 info
> Do you happen to know their recommended pre-load?
Not off hand. Do you have a copy of the Ruggles Guide? It might be in there. > And to really be a choosey beggar, recommended timing? 32 degrees total timing using the KB advance curve kit. I'll have to check if the mechanical advance curve vs. RPM is called out but it might also be in the Ruggles Guide. > Looks like I lucked out on the cam! Looks like a good high performance street grind. > From what I could see without adding some material I would not have enough metal on top. I need to check the Weiand intake. It may have larger runners that better match the later tall port heads than the Kenne Bell. > Might like to have another, what would you want for yours? Let me check to make sure I still have it. > For a "Road Race" engine this one seems pretty mild, lots of small things like a little head porting I would have done that he did not. Sounds like it more of a high performance street engine than road race. Dan Jones |
Dan Jones Dan Jones St. Louis, Missouri (280 posts) Registered: 07/21/2008 03:32PM Main British Car: 1980 Triumph TR8 3.5L Rover V8 |
Re: Buick V6 info
I did a quick check of the Weiand, Kenne Bell and OEM Buick V6 intakes. The Kenne Bell has the smaller port to fit both the early and later heads. The Weiand has larger ports like the OEM 4.1L Buick V6 intake. I'll measure the ports this weekend.
Dan Jones |
Richard/SIA Richard Brengman No. Nevada (401 posts) Registered: 01/17/2014 07:47PM Main British Car: 1969 Triumph GT6+ 225" Buick V6 |
Re: Buick V6 info
Got my copy of The Buick Free Spirit Power Manual today.
Early edition so not as complete as the one I had that disappeared. Still lots of good info, I now know that my engine is about 10-1 compression with the Buick 350 pistons. Want to find out if #8445 Grand National heads will fit my '78? even-fire lower. As I understand it early GN heads do fit the early block but "Stage II" do not. |