Engine and Transmission Tech

Here's something for Curtis who strives to put his GT on a constant diet.



Weight approx 1450g (3.2lb)
360amps CCA
Battery Dimensions 175 x 87 x 130 (6.9” x 3.4” x 5.1”)

- I'd be surprised if these didn't replace lead/acid batteries in the next few years as automakers pull out the stops to shed weight and increase fuel economy....just need to get costs and operating/design issues under control.

> pull out the stops to shed weight> ?

Did you see the fat pigs at the Detroit auto show? I don't think shedding weight is part of the plan. Cars have blimped out like nothing I've seen since the 70's. Can you name One Car that has gotten lighter?

Jim

Following excerpt is from a UAE paper shortly after the crash in 2011.

"Lithium batteries onboard a UPS plane that crashed in Dubai last year should have been declared hazardous cargo, a report by the UAE’s civil aviation authority said."

We won't even carry single Lithium Ion batteries as cargo on our flights.

FWIW.

Jim, CAFE standards tightening by 2025 - dropping weight has to be a top consideration....
.....and Geoff is right, there are 'operating' issues that need attention - might be a current option for the race crowd but needs work to them acceptable for getting groceries....time will tell!

We'll do a little test at the get together in April. I have an old lithium phone battery I've been planning to shoot with a .22 short pistol to see what it's reaction to an air leak might be. I'm sure others will be curious as well. According to Matt, Behr Grils poked a phone battery with a knife for his survival show in an attempt to start a campfire and was rather startled by what he set off.

Jim

I have ignited 2 lithium ion batteries. They were both batteries for model airplane purposes. The problem is once they reach thermal runaway, they self-destruct internally. The batteries rupture and ooze like a lava eruption dropping lava fireballs.

I have had friends with battery eruptions carry the erupting battery out of the house only to get minor burns and to set corners of their couch and carpet a fire from the oozing lava.

When mine erupted I had isolation containers and I was monitoring them. I carried them out of the shop and threw them in the yard.

We generally charge lithium batteries out of the model airplanes in an isolated container. The containers used to be flowerpots or containers similar. Now they are moving to bags for isolation. The problem with bags is once a battery has erupted you ruin a nice bag when flowerpots are cheap.

I know of 2 incidents with full size airplanes where laptops erupted while they were on the ground. These laptops were used for flight charts and they were lucky they were on the ground. They simply opened the door and threw the laptops out the door. One pilot had second-degree burns on his legs.

In my last flying position we used laptops extensively for navigational and charts and our passengers used laptops extensively as well. Our laptops routinely overheated and locked up. I tried to get into a discussion of what we would do if one went into thermal runaway but was told I didn't know what I was talking about and not to bring it up again; leave it for those with seniority to deal with. The place was an accident to happen with the least informed leading the way!

There are several problems in a confined aircraft. The smoke is thick and lethal. The FAA began addressing this a couple years ago and came out with a method of containment and training. Their containment was to pour gallons of water to cool the battery and laptop to stop the thermal runaway. The problem was the water feeds the lithium fire until you get it cool and the smoke in a confined area; such as a cabin of an airplane, is unimaginable.

NOW they have finally come out with (what I suggested a long time ago) ..what I call a pizza bag; self containment. When the device self-destructs, throw it in a bag which contains the smoke and robs it of oxygen.

As far as laptops and carry on items the FAA and industry is reacting at a snails pace. The FAR's (Federal Aviation Regulations) is referred to as a blood book. Nearly every law or rule stems from accident or death. We will have to have a few more deaths from lithium batteries to really get a handle on it. I know of one UPS flight which has crashed due to lithium battery cargo. There have been many cargo fires which have destroyed several aircraft on the ground

Lithium batteries are not the first batteries to self destruct on airplanes. For years Nicaads have been the battery which required monitoring. There has been more then one nicaad battery go into thermal runaway and melt through a wing. The problem with Lithium, is they are a little less manageable. A nicaad you can monitor temps and charging current. Same to some degree with Lithium but you still have bad areas in a lithium battery which can occasionally go bonkers when the rest is doing fine.

A battery in self-destruct mode begins short circuiting internally. Lithium batteries begin a chemical reaction which is nearly impossible to stop. Once a battery begins a runaway mode you have 3 options. Cool it, smother it, remove it.

As far as cars, you have the option to pull over and exit the vehicle. With a runaway battery you have time to stop but I am not sure there is much you can do with a battery tucked in a confined spot. You may not be able to get the hatch off or remove it. With the battery back near the gas tank, the hot lava expelling from a battery would be a cause for concern.

I think above all, my largest concern would be parking a car in the garage after a trip…unknowing that the battery is reached a critical temp but is showing no signs of thermal melt down. As you go back in the house, drink a glass of wine and head to bed, the battery in your car, right in front of the gas tank goes into thermal runaway. At some point you are awaken by the bright glow coming from that end of the house being consumed by fire. Is this overly concerned?

Just as a side note, my last house and this house I had one requirement. The shop where I work on my cars is not attached to the house. If I do something stupid and burn it down, at least it is not attached to the house.

BUT…..like everything else, as an industrious society we begin to learn how to manage the risk and to limit the risk with viable solutions. Lithium batteries is a desired technology for a reason. As people use them, as people have problems, people create methods to mitigate the risk and find ways of operating technology with limited problems.













Laptop Meltdown

[www.youtube.com]

Gary, your experiences are quite alarming - compelling evidence not to buy a Hybrid Automobile?

But at the same time I am no doubt behind on the current Lithium mixes. Some are not as volitile but I don't know by what degree. No doubt the problem is still a problem and will be for some time.

I think montoring is crutial but to what extent? I am not sure monitoring the way they did for Nicaad batteries is adequate for lithium mixes. I know some segment of the battery can fail while another segment can remain at reaosnable temps. My gut would be building temp sensors into multiple locations inside the battery----and--battery compartment made for containment or even speration.

As far as cars we are no doubt raking new ground in this area but I think there is good reason to find limitations and solutions.

I think if I were to test this seriously, I would take a lithium battery, build a containment box which would have only a small vent for air expansion but not big enough to be much of an oxigen supply for the battery. I would test the containment box to see if it would contain a total battery meltdown. I would secondly, build the containment battery box such that it could be removed and relaced. If a battery melts down I would hate to have to cut out and weld in a new box.

Second, I would see about thermal cut off switches. If the battery box or portions of the battery reaches a specific temp, the battery goes off line.

I am pretty sure judging from what I saw at Detroit that the containment vessels used in the new hybrids is a steel shell constructed much like a conventional gas tank and sealed. I got the distinct impression that it would have been a simple matter to flush and seal it with an inert gas such as nitrogen inside. Undoubtedly this would do much to contain and prevent any runaway reaction.

If I wanted to use a lithium battery in the car I would take a similar approach. Build some sort of a removable sealed container with a pressure vent, preferrably with easily removed power connections and a means of lifting it out if it was hot.

Years back on a trip to Townsend I had a cell go bad in an Optima battery. Voltage looked normal but the ammmeter read 50 amps all the way down and when we got there the battery was too hot to touch, almost to the point of softening the plastic. Getting that hot battery out of the car was not an enviable task. I don't remember now if it had a handle on it or not but I now consider that to be a requirement. If that had been a lithium battery I would have lost the car.

Jim

Just as a side note the FAA had a fairly rigorous testing program back in the late '70s when the Lithium Manganese Dioxide batteries were being proposed for the emergency locator transponders for light aircraft.