Engine and Transmission Tech

OK I'm waffling on cam choice. I've been looking at the Crower 50233 but I fear the taller lift. Here's specs:
[www.crower.com]

Then there is the square Isky 621282 it has pretty good duration but not so sure if the lift is enough:
[cgi.ebay.com]


I don't want to make a poor decision. My project a 5.0L Rover/Buick stroker with 11.5:1 compression. I've built a 750 Qjet for it on a single plane manifold. I could also adapt the Performer and I planned on trying both on the engine dyno. I figured I'll put the redline at 6800. The valves are 1.72 int. and 1.496 ex with 1.6 ratio roller rockers.

Any input is much appreciated.

OR this one:

[store.summitracing.com]

Nick, I don't see a whole lot of difference in those cams except that the Crane has a lower powerband. But based on the duration and lift that could be wholely a function of valve spring pressure since there're no spring specs for the Crane or Isky. They're all three real similar, and you're going to have a wild ride with any of the three. The lobe profile could be considerably different on all three cams though and without looking at that you really have no way to compare how they are going to act. Obviously a flatter profile with steeper ramps is going to make more power but also need stiffer springs. Plus you've got what, 4 degrees of variation there in lobe separation? I think you need more specifics from each of the grinders.

From my own experience with these engines, you *can* live with the hot cam but you may not want to if you plan to drive the car a lot. In which case something midway between these and stock specs is going to work out nicely and you can upgrade the springs to get into the higher RPM range. But I'd also like to offer one caution. Don't start out with the hot stick and then try to dial back. If you do that, next thing you know you'll be putting a blower on it to get the power back. If that's not a problem I'd lean towards the Isky with the Crower a close second choice, but that's mostly personal preference.

Jim

Nic. Dont let numbers scare you.
If you are going with the E-85 Id be tempted to try the Crower cam.. It has basically the same duration and a little higher lift and its ground on a 112 LSA ......that should idle smoother than the ISKY cam with the 109 LSA

I guess my biggest concern is the lift. I have a Crower 50232 from way back. It's kinda set up for the 215. I figured since I added displacement I'd increase the cam profile.

SO I just went back and checked the lobe lift between the two Crower cams and it's the same at 0.31". My fear about spring bind is gone since I had the heads set up initially for the 50232 anyway. The suggested spring load is the same too. It looks like the only difference is the duration. Cool. I think I'm going to go with my initial thought and go with the Crower 50233.

Thanks for th input, guys. I'm feeling more at ease. Good advice, Jim. LOL! I have a feeling that's what happened to you.

So now you have a cam and an intake with no home.. Give me a call before you sell them .

Cool. I'll keep you in the loop.

Good advice, Jim. LOL! I have a feeling
> that's what happened to you.

Sort of. I put in the hottest cam CC made for the SBB back in about '85 with stiff springs and Rhodes lifters and it was a screamer to be sure. But not knowing the Rhodes are noisy I made the mistake of swapping out a lifter and wiped out that cam lobe so I thought I'd try a different cam. I chose the Kenne Bell one that looked just a half step milder and it just never was the same. Took me a couple of engines before I was back above that power level, one of which was a turbo setup. But it could be just me, I'm well above that point now and it still isn't enough. Not sure why that is exactly, but I do miss the high redline. Starting to think a set of forged pistons might be a good investment and that's a dangerous line to cross. Things just get more and more expensive from there on out.

Jim

> OK I'm waffling on cam choice.

You might want to take a look at the post I made here:

[thewedgeshop.21.forumer.com]

on cam theory and Rover V8's.

I ran Vizard's cam selection rules on your engine (3.74" bore, 3.4"
stroke, 11.5:1 compression ratio, 1.72" intake valve) for 75 degrees
overlap (consistent with a hot street motor) and got:

290 degrees seat duration
108 LSA
0.5"+ lift

The lobe separation angle is the important figure here. If you
want to lower the RPM band, reduce the duration but keep the LSA.
Note that as you go up in displacement, you need to narrow the lobe
center for best performance. The Crower hydraulic catalog grinds
are all ground on 112 lobe centers, though their solid flat tappets
are 108:

Crower solid flat tappet cams
P/N Grind adv dur 0.050 lift LSA RPM Range
50303 282FDP 282/287 238/242 .482/.488 108 2000 to 5500/ redline 7000 300
50304 292FDP 292/298 246/250 .502/.514 108 2500 to 6000/ redline 7500 340
50305 304FDP 304/310 256/262 .536/.549 108 2500 to 6000/ redline 7500 340
lash 0.022" intake/0.024" exhaust

The Isky 282 is on a 109 LSA but Ted at TSI Imported Automotive has
a custom Isky 264 on a 108 but it has a fair bit less overlap (i.e.
a lower RPM band):

Isky Grind adv dur 0.050 lift LSA
264 264/264 ---/--- .480/.480 108
270 270/270 216/216 .470/.470 109
282 282/282 224/224 .467/.467 109

Woody Cooper at the Wedge Shop (thewedgeshop.com) has probably the most
experience in the States with engines like you are building and has a range
of custom Erson grinds he runs in Rover/Buick strokers. I'd give him a call
and tell him what you're doing and see what he has to offer. You are giving
up a lot with the 112 lobe center of the Crower 50233.

> Harland Sharp roller rockers 1.6 ratio. COOL!

Did you verify this? I have it in the back of my mind they were more like
1.55:1 but I'm not sure why.

> I put in the hottest cam CC made for the SBB back in about '85 with
> stiff springs and Rhodes lifters and it was a screamer to be sure.
> But not knowing the Rhodes are noisy I made the mistake of swapping
> out a lifter and wiped out that cam lobe so I thought I'd try a
> different cam.

The Rhoads lifters need the pre-load to be set but the Rover/Buicks have
non-adjustable valvetrain. The previous owner installed them in my
TR8, along with a Crane H-216 cam. He used adjustable pushrods to set
pre-load but they were still noisy. I decided to replace them with a
set of standard lifters but the Rhoads lifters were flat on the bottom,
indicating wear. The cam looks good but I decided not to chance it and
ordered a new cam. The old cam was:

Crane H-216/285-2S-12
266/278 degrees duration (advertised)
0.456/0.480" lift
112 LSA
48 degrees overlap

The new cam is:

Erson RV10/RV15 (Wedge Shop custom grind)
280/288 degrees advertised duration (208/214 @ 0.050")
0.448"/0.460" lift
111 lobe separation angle
4 degrees advanced when installed straight up
62 degrees overlap

My application is a Triumph TR8 with a stock long block, tri-y headers,
dual exhaust, Edelbrock Performer Rover intake and 500 CFM AFB. With
only 8.15:1 compression ratio, you can't get too crazy with the cam specs.
The above Erson grind from Woody at the Wedge Shop is one he's found works
well in applications like mine.

Dan Jones

OK on the cam situation: I called Woody from the Wedge shop. I had a really great conversation with him. He's a like minded guy. What's cool is that he's built a few of these engines and has had a bunch of time to experiment with different profiles.

I ended up going with a cam that sounds crazy radical: Solid lifter, 314 adv dur, and .544 lift. The LCA is 108º. It all sounds crazy but he actually drives a version of this cam with an LCA of 106º and recently got almost 20mpg on a recent power tour. It was a big surprise to him.

There are a lot of factors that make the cam right for the engine: Valve angle and position, Valve to bore ratio, Rod ratio, I'm using 1.6 roller rockers, CR 11:1.

I'll report how it works out when I can finally run the engine. Sounds pretty wicked. Looks like I'm going down the road Jim warned me of. Well I guess we all have to make our own way of it, right? LOL. Thanks for all the advice guys.

> OK on the cam situation: I called Woody from the Wedge shop.
> I had a really great conversation with him. He's a like minded
> guy. What's cool is that he's built a few of these engines and
> has had a bunch of time to experiment with different profiles.

I thought you might benefit from his experience.

> I ended up going with a cam that sounds crazy radical: Solid
> lifter, 314 adv dur, and .544 lift. The LCA is 108º. It all
> sounds crazy but he actually drives a version of this cam with
> an LCA of 106º and recently got almost 20mpg on a recent power
> tour. It was a big surprise to him.

I show three Erson lobes:

HIFLOW IM 242 286 .340 0.015 0.544
HIFLOW IIM 246 296 .340 0.015 0.544
HIFLOW IIIM 254 306 .340 0.015 0.544

I wonder if they have an updated lobe? When you get the cam,
please post the cam card and valve spring info. Did Woody
recommend helicoiling the cylinder heads where the rocker stands
bolt down? What sort of oil do you plan to use?

Dan Jones

It's being worked out now and I will post every detail when I get it. It will be about a week or so. I already sent off a payment. BTW his spring sets are about $65. CHEAP!! The whole thing was a lot less expensive than I expected. I'll post an itemized list of the = cost details as they come through too. It sounded like around $250-$280 for a custom ground profile!

I will have to get the proper lifters from TA and that's not cheap. He thought it was around $230ish for a set. I actually did already have the heads helicoiled. It was SOP for my shop I guess. I didn't know it added strength to the perches. Interesting. I also have the D&D rocker shaft end supports. That should help me get through the effective RPM range he runs. His said his experience with this cam was it produced power to about mid 6k range. He figured 6800 was a good redline for the setup.

I'm pretty excited. I can't thank you enough for pointing me in his direction. It was really great talking to another motorhead that builds my engine too. It just doesn't happen very often. Good times. I can't wait for the engine dyno!

Some pretty interesting info, though I won't pretend to follow all the details. Should be a real strong motor, and that 6800 redline is bound to spoil ya.

If you guys are about through with Nick's combo I've got another one for you to consider, which will probably need a custom cam, but I'm not deep enough into it to figure out what the best setup would be. If you'd like to take a shot at it, here's the specs:

340 short block .030 over with stock high compression cast pistons
'64 300 heads with stock valves, about 10:1 compression
Eaton M-112 blower, intercooler, and port injection, boost probably around 8 psi, maybe a little more.
Equal length headers with 1-1/2" x 32" primaries and 2-3/8" collectors dumping into glass packs
6 grand redline based on the pistons. The valve springs can handle about anything I want to throw at them, about a 90 lb seat pressure and real good open pressure, they were good for an easy 7 grand in a 215.
This is supposed to be an economy motor for good gas mileage, and I'd like to see how far I can take that and still get something like 300+ hp out of it.

Obviously the blower throws a curve in things, since the intake side will easily flow enough under boost to produce the desired output even with a stock cam profile, but the exhaust side could use a little help as the exhaust valves are arguably a little undersized to begin with.

What do you guys think, want to kick this combo around a bit?

Jim

FYI
I was talking to the Crane Rep at the NHRA Lucas oil nationals and he said they can no longer get cores for the Buick 215, 300, 340 but could do roller cams..

There are only really a few suppliers of cores.. does this mean that other manufacturers will soon be using up what they have on hand? Or is the Crane rep full of hooey?

I wonder if they are just loosing the "215,300,340" listing. Maybe the just say Rover now??

> Obviously the blower throws a curve in things, since the intake side will
> easily flow enough under boost to produce the desired output even with a
> stock cam profile, but the exhaust side could use a little help as the
> exhaust valves are arguably a little undersized to begin with.

Yes. The old B&M blower catalog had a note when running their blower
on stock Ford Windsor heads that the blower could overheat due to the
restrictive exhaust and the Windsor has larger valves than the Buick 300.

> What do you guys think, want to kick this combo around a bit?

I don't have much experience with blower cams but typically they
run less overlap via wider lobe centers so you don't blow the
compression out the exhaust before it closes. A typical Ford 5.0L
blower cam has 112 lobe centers with longer exhaust duration.
Some run the stock 5.0L cam which has 116 lobe centers (single
pattern with 204 degrees duration and 0.444" lift w/1.6 rockers)
and Crower's 351C blower cam is 114. Anderson Ford Motorport has
a series of blower cams for the 5.0L Ford and the mildest specs out
at 218/226 degrees @ 0.050", 112 LSA, 0.542"/0.542" (this is a
hydraulic roller cam). Closest off-the-shelf Buick cam would be
on of the Crowers, either the 50232 or 50233:

50232 276HDP 276/281 214/218 .488/.490 112
50233 280HDP 280/286 220/226 .488/.501 112

If you're interested, I've got both of those cams (new) here that
I'd sell. Looking at the Erson lobes, the closest match to the
AFM blower cam would be a Hiflow AH intake lobe with a Highflow IH
exhaust lobe (220/228, 0.504"/0.504") on 112 centers. If fuel
economy is a concern, maybe 114 lobe centers or even an RV15H intake
lobe:

RV10H 208 280 0.280 0.448
RV15H 214 288 0.288 0.461
TQ20H 214 292 0.299 0.478
TQ30H 226 310 0.310 0.496

Hiflow AH 220 284 0.315 0.504
Hiflow IH 228 296 0.315 0.504
Hiflow IIH 235 306 0.315 0.504
Hiflow IIIH 240 316 0.315 0.504

You might want to run this by Woody at the Wedge Shop (he works with
Steve Tanzi at Erson on the custom grinds).

> I was talking to the Crane Rep at the NHRA Lucas oil nationals and
> he said they can no longer get cores for the Buick 215, 300, 340 but
> could do roller cams..

Were they talking about hydraulic or solid roller cams?

> There are only really a few suppliers of cores.. does this mean that
> other manufacturers will soon be using up what they have on hand?

That would be bad.

> I wonder if they are just loosing the "215,300,340" listing. Maybe
> the just say Rover now??

Crane no longer lists the cams in their catalog.

Dan Jones

Dan.. he didnt specify what type of roller cams... Im assuming they would be custom billet but im not sure if there is a roller cam core or not.

I've not officially got a spare Crower 50232 if anybody is interested.

Hello, here some selection of cams aviaible for Rover V8 in Europe:

Make Number Timing Period Valve lift Lifters Class Comments
Oselli RV8255 22/62/62/22 264° .421" Hyd . Mild Road Extra low and mid end power. Good for towing/load carrying.
Oselli RV8271 28/64/64/28 272° .439" Hyd . Road Improves mid and top end power. Good flexibility.
Oselli RV8214 31/73/80/34 284/294° .469 "/.494" Hyd. Road Good all round improvement.
Oselli RV8286 44/72/72/44 296° .439" Hyd . Road Excellent road cam. Ideal for fuel injected engines.
Oselli RV8480 36/76/76/36 292° .480" Hyd . Fast Road Extra mid and top end power. Ultimate for auto-transmission.
Oselli RV8502 37/77/77/37 294° .495 " Hyd . Road/Rally Slightly lumpy tickover. Good power 2000 rpm upwards.
Oselli RV8224 36/78/85/39 294/304° .494"/.520" Hyd. Road/Rally Extended top end power with up to 7000rpm
Oselli RV84 35/71/71/35 286° .516" Hyd. Rally Good all round competition cam. Power band 2500-7000 rpm
Oselli RV8481 42/82/82/42 304° .496 " Hyd. Rally Poor low end tractability. Power band 3000-7000 rpm
Oselli RV8234 38/80/87/41 298/308° .520"/.542" Hyd. Rally Poor idle and low end but excellent power over 3500 rpm
Oselli RV8500 46/82/82/46 308° .542" Hyd . Race Ultimate hyd. camshaft. Power band4000-7000 rpm
Oselli RV8900 42/78/78/42 300° .500" Solid Rally Poor tickover. Excellent mid and top range power.
Oselli RV8100 47/83/83/47 310° .530" Solid Race Maximum power for full race spec, engine.High rpm.
Kent H180 28/64/64/28 272° .439" Hyd. Mild Road Good for automaticsPower band 1000-4500 rpm
Kent H200 20/64/69/25 264° .435 "/.460" Hyd Mild Road For pre-SD1. Also good for automatics.
Kent H214 31/73/80/34 284° .469 "/.494" Hyd. Fast Road Very flexible. Power from 1500-5000 rpm.Good road camshaft.
Kent H224 36/78/85/39 294° .494"/.520" Hyd. Road Rally Slight loss of flexibility. Power comes in 2000-5500 rpm.
Kent H234 38/80/87/41 298° .520" /.542" Hyd. Rally Poor low end, but improves mid and top end power.
Kent GPA 44/76/76/44 300° .390" Hyd. Rally Same valve lift as standard engine (.390")
Kent M238 42/78/78/42 300° .512" Solid Rally Higher rpm use. Power band from 2750-7000rpm.
Kent M248 48/82/84/46 310° .533" Solid Rally/Race High rpm camshaft. Power band from 3500-8250rpm
Kent M256 42/70/83/39 310° .546"/.564" Solid Race Ultimate race cam. Full race engine only. Power 4000-8250 rpm
Piper HR270 22/62/64/28 264°/272° .421"/.439" Hyd. Road Flexible with good mid and top end improvement.
Piper HR270/2 28/64/64/28 272° .440" Hyd . Fast Road Mk1 1 of above cam.
Piper HR285 44/72/72/44 296° .439" Hyd. Fast Road Ultimate road cam. Tractable but slightly lumpy tickover.
Piper HR300 36/68/68/36 284° .440" Solid Competition Accent on mid-range power. Power band 3000-7000 rpm.
Piper HR320 52/84/84/52 316° .471" Solid Race Mid and top end power. Excellent circuit race cam.
Crane H-194 10/54/59/15 244/254° .400 "/.430" Hyd. Road Economy cam only. Not to be used with comp. ratio over 8.75:1
Crane H-204 15/59/65/21 254/266° .430"/.456" Hyd. Mild Road Improvement over standard cam. Can be straight swap.
Crane H-216 21/65/71/27 266/278° .456 "/.480" Hyd. Road Excellent all rounder. Good power increase across rev. range.
Crane H-224 36/78/85/39 294/304° .494"/.520" Hyd. Fast Road Slightly lumpy idle. Good for lighter vehicles eg. sports cars.
Crane H-234 38/80/877/41 298/308° .520"/.542" Hyd. Road/Comp. Ultimate hyd. cam but compromise in road car.
Crane F-228 38/72/74/36 290° .491 " Solid Road Particularly suitable for turbo or supercharging.
Crane F-238 42/78/78/42 300° .512" Solid Road/Comp. Wide power band. Does not need high rpm.
Crane F-248 48/82/84/46 310° .533" Solid Rally Wide power band. Works well with Holley 4-barrel carb.
Crane F-256 42/70/83/39 292/302° .546"/.564 " Solid Competition Good mid and top end power.
Crane F-266 47/75/88/44 302/312° .564"/.584" Solid Competition Out and out power. Engine must be capable of high rpm.
Crane F-276 52/80/93/49 312/322° ,584"/.602" Solid Competition Radical race engines only. The ultimate.
JE Motors JE101 20/65/25/20 265/225° .430" Hyd. Road
JE Motors JE102 43/79/79/43 302° .500" Hyd. Fast Road Good power from 3000-6500 rpm. Peak torque 5000 rpm
Holbay 111R 39/73/73/39 292° .429" Hyd. Fast Road The Tornado
Holbay 125LHC 40/84/89/45 304/314° .520"/.541" Hyd. Competition Designed for maximum performance within rpm limits of hyd. lifters.
Holbay K3A 58/88/74/50 326/304° .432" Solid Competition High torque design.
Holbay 751R 63/95/95/63 338° .451 " Solid Competition Maximum bhp at higher rpm.
Holbay Standard 30/75/68/37 285° .390"/.385" Hyd. Production 3. 5-litre (SD1)
Rover Standard 32/73/70/35 285° .390" Hyd. Production 3.9-litre (designation ETC 8686)
Rover Standard 28/77/66/39 285° .390" Hyd. Production 4.0-litre (designation ERR 3720)
Rover Standard 14/70/64/20 264° .416" Hyd. Production 4.6-litre (designation ERR 5250)

On Jim's cam: I was thinking bigger lift was better for forced induction. It sounds like thats what the Ford likes. Does rod ratio change duration? I would think that would only effect lift.

I bet longer rod ratios probably help too because of faster piston speed at BDC. That's got nothing to do with cams though.

WHOA, Dimitri. Thanks man. I guess I sat on my post for an hour. I didn't see it before now. (edit)

Actually this brings up a good point. How do you read the "Timing" numbers?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/12/2008 05:29PM by NixVegaGT.