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tips, technology, tools and techniques related to vehicle driveline components

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Moderator
Curtis Jacobson
Portland Oregon
(4577 posts)

Registered:
10/12/2007 02:16AM

Main British Car:
71 MGBGT, Buick 215

authors avatar
composite vs. iron vs. steel timing gears
Posted by: Moderator
Date: April 12, 2013 01:12PM

This morning I was reading a very old book about Model A Fords, and it cited that in 1929 69% of all American cars produced were fitted with "fabric" (canvas and phenolic resin composite) timing gears because they run quieter and with superior wear characteristics compared to iron gears to ensure accurate camshaft timing over many miles of service.

I've seen various kinds of "plastic" timing gears on American V8s, but never really paid attention to which engines had which gears. I'm pretty well certain that GM, Ford and Chrysler have all used gears with nylon teeth around steel hubs on their V8 engines at least from time to time. I think I remember removing a fully plastic (composite) gear from a mid-seventies Olds 350 and replacing it with an iron gear.

The Des Hammill book on Rover V8 recommends steel replacements over iron ones for better durability, but makes no mention of plastic or composite alternatives. The timing gears on my 1962 Buick engine are undoubtedly aftermarket parts, and as I recall they're iron.

Questions:
1) Did Buick originally use composite or iron gears on 215?
2) Are any of you using plastic or composite gears?
3) Are plastic or composite gears even available for BOPR?
4) What differences - if any - have you noted?


mstemp
Mike Stemp
Calgary, Canada
(223 posts)

Registered:
11/25/2009 07:18AM

Main British Car:
1980 MGB Rover 4.6L

Re: composite vs. iron vs. steel timing gears
Posted by: mstemp
Date: April 12, 2013 03:03PM

Curtis,

3) Most of the Rover V8 used the plastic gear on teh cam, at least the SD1 did. RPI and Rimmer Brothers should have them but are not recommended due to wear issues and timming changes.


MGBV8
Carl Floyd
Kingsport, TN
(4514 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 11:32PM

Main British Car:
1979 MGB Buick 215

authors avatar
Re: composite vs. iron vs. steel timing gears
Posted by: MGBV8
Date: April 12, 2013 03:37PM

Jesel Belt Drive.


roverman
Art Gertz
Winchester, CA.
(3188 posts)

Registered:
04/24/2009 11:02AM

Main British Car:
74' Jensen Healy, 79 Huff. GT 1, 74 MGB Lotus 907,2L

Re: composite vs. iron vs. steel timing gears
Posted by: roverman
Date: April 13, 2013 11:56AM

The nylon teeth on the cam sprocket, had some advantages, from a design standpoint. Problem is, the real world doesn't always work that way. Nylon is quieter and has less friction, and for a "while", works better on a stock motor. It doesn't like high mileage, heat, hot/cold cycles or hotter cams, with more valvetrain stresses. Mopar engines used to shed their nylon teeth, in higher mileage motors. I suspect similar problems with other motors. IMHO, not suitable for a hi performance engine. Iron will retain slighty more oil, over steel, is less expensive, and should be suitable for most BOR. engines. Good Luck, roverman.


MGB-FV8
Jacques Mathieu
Alexandria, VA
(299 posts)

Registered:
09/11/2009 08:55PM

Main British Car:
1977 MGB Small Block Ford, 331 Stroker

Re: composite vs. iron vs. steel timing gears
Posted by: MGB-FV8
Date: April 14, 2013 10:48PM

I tend to agree with Art; high pressure valve springs and quick revving engines are a killer on composite gears. Also after awhile they fluctuate too much. A premium double full roller timing set is the only way to go........

Cheers


WernerVC
Werner Van Clapdurp
Lynchburg, Va
(108 posts)

Registered:
09/06/2009 12:56PM

Main British Car:
MGB 1977 Rover 3.5

Re: composite vs. iron vs. steel timing gears
Posted by: WernerVC
Date: April 17, 2013 02:47PM

I drove a Ford Vedette (French built) V8 wich had composite timing gears. They didn't hold up very well and had to be replaced after about 10K miles.
That was in the early 60ties and the engine was build in early 50ties so not good composite quality available.
Werner


Moderator
Curtis Jacobson
Portland Oregon
(4577 posts)

Registered:
10/12/2007 02:16AM

Main British Car:
71 MGBGT, Buick 215

authors avatar
Re: composite vs. iron vs. steel timing gears
Posted by: Moderator
Date: April 19, 2013 01:07PM

I thought you guys might be curious to know more about Model A timing gears...

The following is all from a remarkable little book called "Know The Ford" by Murray Fahnestock, circa 1930. The book explains nearly every design feature of the Model A and compares/contrasts the Ford design with competitive cars. Some features of the Model A were incredibly clever - often decades ahead of its time. On the other hand, the book gives me the distinct impression that dual carburetors had not yet been conceived. Ford (and Fahnestock) took for granted that a driver must be able to frequently and manually adjust fuel mixture to meet changing conditions right from the driver's seat. The book aggressively bashes Chevrolet cars for having overhead valves, as though that were a terribly backward design. Did you know that Ford welded the spokes of Model A wheels at both the hub and the rim after initial assembly and balancing? No tire punctures caused by loose spokes! (I wonder if any racers were still using that trick in the fifties... It would obviously make for a much stiffer and stronger wheel.)

Here's the section about composite "fabric" gears:
Quote:
Cam Gear

The fabric camshaft gear camshaft drive of Ford secures simplicity and low cost of maintenance (as compared with the so-called silent chain drive) and yet secures silent operation at all speeds.

In actual practice it has been found the fabric gear is usually more durable than steel - possibly because there is a little "give" to it, which allows this gear to yield, rather than wear. This type of fabric gear drive has been used on the Buick, the Nash, and other large cars for many years. In fact, it is estimated that 69 per cent (more than two out of three) of the cars produced in 1929 were equipped with fabric timing gears, and 1930 will probably show an even larger percentage.

The advantages of the fabric gear include:
1. Permanent positive timing accuracy.
2. Nothing to stretch. Wear cannot cause lag.
3. No continuous adjustments or early replacements.
4. Remains quiet.

How Fabric Gears Are Made

The fabric camshaft gears, as used in the Model A Ford, are made from die-formed blanks. Sheets of canvas, impregnated with bakelite resin, are punched into rings, segments or discs. These are assembled to individual molds, and are then molded under pressure of 2000 pounds per square inch, while at a temperature of 1200 degrees Fahrenheit.

The web of the gear is made up of small segments of bakelite fabric which interlap and, when molded, give an interwoven web, which assures the gear against delamination because of web flex. The tooth surface of the blank is built up of rings and segments, which are punched from sheets of impregnated canvas, so the weave of the canvas radiates from the center of the gear. This assures uniform strength around the entire circumference of the gear. These segments and rings are interlapped with the segments used to build up the web of the gear, so the whole gear is interlocked when molded. The cut shows a magnified cross section of the gear, which illustrates the interwoven feature of the particular makes of fabric gear used in Ford cars.

When the fabric blanks come from the presses, they are given a special heat treatment lasting 48 hours at a temperature of about 1600 degrees Fahrenheit; which insures the gears against change of form when subjected to the hot oil in the crankcase.

All fabric gears are triple tested for strength and accuracy before they leave the factory. The first test for strength is given the gear blanks after they receive the heat treatment just described. This test consists of applying, at three places on the tooth surface of the blank, a pressure of 2000 pounds per square inch. Every blank must pass this test 100 per cent.

The second test is the flexibility of the web. A pressure of 2000 pounds is applied on the web, pushing it down 1/8 to 5/16 inch. To pass the test, the web of the gear must spring back into position simultaneously with the release of pressure.

The third test is actually a series of tests. These insure accuracy of the teeth, bore, and location of dowel pin hole. Less than0.0015-inch variation in the eccentricity of pitch diameter, less than 0.001 inch plus or minus variance in maintaining center distances of mating gears, and absolutely no variance in regular spacing of teeth are the standards of precision which every fabric gear must achieve before it is passed.

On a test fixture in a laboratory, a load of 2000 pounds was applied directly to the hub of a gear blank of the type being used on the Model A Ford at intervals of three seconds for three weeks. At each application of the load, the web deflected 1/8 inch. At the end of the test, no evidence of fatigue or loss of elasticity was noticed. It is apparent the ability of this gear to cushion or absorb shocks and vibrations not only tends to eliminate noise, but also reduces the wear and tear of engine parts to which it is connected.

The fabric gear is positioned on the camshaft by a dowel pin in the camshaft flange, and is held in place by a large round nut (which has two flat surfaces cut into it for the application of a wrench). Thus nut and flange form a metallic hub for the fabric gear. The fabric camshaft gear has 50 teeth, while the steel crankshaft gear that drives it has but 25 teeth. Consequently, the camshaft must rotate at the correct speed, which is one-half of crankshaft speed.




DiDueColpi
Fred Key
West coast - Canada
(1366 posts)

Registered:
05/14/2010 03:06AM

Main British Car:
I really thought that I'd be an action figure by now!

authors avatar
Re: composite vs. iron vs. steel timing gears
Posted by: DiDueColpi
Date: April 19, 2013 09:43PM

Volvo also used the fabric gears for years.
All of their pushrod motors used them right up to 1975.
These gears routinely last 400 to 500 thousand kilometers.
I even use them in race engines that won't see more than 7000 rpm.
Above that speed the teeth start to fret. I don't think that it is a gear failure as much as a harmonic problem.
Even the steel and aluminum gears have problems at the higher rpms.
Anyway, these are a different animal from the traditional cast aluminum/nylon coated chain gear that most are familiar with.
Cheers
Fred


MGB-FV8
Jacques Mathieu
Alexandria, VA
(299 posts)

Registered:
09/11/2009 08:55PM

Main British Car:
1977 MGB Small Block Ford, 331 Stroker

Re: composite vs. iron vs. steel timing gears
Posted by: MGB-FV8
Date: April 29, 2013 12:06AM

It looks like old research data from an earlier time.


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