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tips, technology, tools and techniques related to vehicle driveline components

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Moderator
Curtis Jacobson
Portland Oregon
(4411 posts)

Registered:
10/12/2007 02:16AM

Main British Car:
71 MGBGT, Buick 215

authors avatar
Sensing cam position on Buick/Rover V8
Posted by: Moderator
Date: June 05, 2013 03:53AM

I'm just about ready to think about this aspect of electronic ignition.

If you were starting from scratch and designing a cam sensor mechanism, what features would you want?

Is it feasible to put a trigger wheel right on the camshaft, instead of geared off the cam like a distributor?


BlownMGB-V8
Jim Blackwood
9406 Gunpowder Rd., Florence, KY 41042
(5812 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 12:59PM

Main British Car:
1971 MGB Blown,Injected,Intercooled Buick 340/AA80E/JagIRS

authors avatar
Re: Sensing cam position on Buick/Rover V8
Posted by: BlownMGB-V8
Date: June 05, 2013 09:54AM

You would need a cam gear with either a protrusion or a hole that could be used to trigger the sensor, though a trigger wheel could be made that would work. The sensor could be mounted in the distributor hole or the fuel pump hole.

Because the early style cover still requires an oil pump drive, I cut down a distributor and added a Ford sensor as a cap:
[forum.britishv8.org]

Accurate location is not a requirement, that is provided by the crank sensor. All the ECM needs to know is which rotation the crank is on.

If you use the late cover with the gerotor pump the drive can be eliminated. I doubt that cover has a mount for a mechanical fuel pump, so another location must be found. The distributor location could be redrilled for a sensor. The front may be out due to the water pump, but I would think a location could be found below the pump. Which cam to use is another question that should be considered, since Art has some roller cam blanks based on the later cam.

Jim


MG four six eight
Bill Jacobson
Wa state
(298 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 02:15AM

Main British Car:
73 MGB Buick 215, Eaton/GM supercharger

Re: Sensing cam position on Buick/Rover V8
Posted by: MG four six eight
Date: June 05, 2013 12:24PM

Here ya go Curtis! [forum.britishv8.org]


Moderator
Curtis Jacobson
Portland Oregon
(4411 posts)

Registered:
10/12/2007 02:16AM

Main British Car:
71 MGBGT, Buick 215

authors avatar
Re: Sensing cam position on Buick/Rover V8
Posted by: Moderator
Date: July 06, 2013 07:33PM

Well... I bought one of those complete Taurus/Windstar style cam positions sensor assemblies from someone on eBay and it arrived today. $30, shipping included. Spotlessly clean and well packaged even. (Reference.)

Now I'm on the lookout for a suitable Delco-Remy distributor for the lower part. I suppose the Buick V6 distributors would probably work just as well for this purpose as the V8 ones, right? I don't recall anything about their camshafts having a different gear.


mgb260
Jim Nichols
Sequim,WA
(1994 posts)

Registered:
02/29/2008 08:29PM

Main British Car:
1973 MGB roadster 260 Ford V8

Re: Sensing cam position on Buick/Rover V8
Posted by: mgb260
Date: July 07, 2013 02:39PM

Curtis, I don't know about the V6 cam gear being the same but I know the Buick 350 distributor has been used in the 215/Rover. Pretty common motor used in the 80's. I would buy a rebuilt one from the auto parts store rather than the junk yard.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/07/2013 02:40PM by mgb260.


Moderator
Curtis Jacobson
Portland Oregon
(4411 posts)

Registered:
10/12/2007 02:16AM

Main British Car:
71 MGBGT, Buick 215

authors avatar
Re: Sensing cam position on Buick/Rover V8
Posted by: Moderator
Date: July 07, 2013 03:22PM

A-ha! NAPA website shows a remarkably low price too: $58.50 plus $6 core charge: [www.napaonline.com]

I have already bid on a used one though. ($10 plus $10 shipping, if no one else bids in the next 3 hours.)


Moderator
Curtis Jacobson
Portland Oregon
(4411 posts)

Registered:
10/12/2007 02:16AM

Main British Car:
71 MGBGT, Buick 215

authors avatar
Re: Sensing cam position on Buick/Rover V8
Posted by: Moderator
Date: August 28, 2013 07:09PM

I'm very excited to announce that I now have a Buick V8 cam position sensor!

Here's how it came out:

Buick-V8-Cam-Position-Sensor.jpg
(New part in center. Cut-down Buick 350 V8 distributor housing on left. Ford Taurus V6 cam sender mount on right.)

Buick-V8-Cam-Position-Sensor-Installed.jpg
(Installed on my Buick 215, but it would fit the other Buick small blocks too.
Rover 3.5/3.9/4.2 V8s could use a similar solution, although they'd require a different drive gear.)

My very good friends Scott and Doug McRoberts - of McRoberts Machine - get credit for all the skilled work that went into making this development happen. I heartily recommend their shop to anyone! The design is obviously an interpretation of what Bill and Jim have done previously.

It turns out that the only part we needed from the old Buick 350 V8 distributor was its drive gear. Its housing casting was very ugly compared to my old Buick 215 distributor in terms of surface finish, flash, etc. - It just didn't see worth messing with. Instead, we decided to make a new housing from scratch. Then, I picked up two oilite bushings from a local hardware store. They're 1/2"ID, 3/4"OD, and 1" long. We pressed those into place. We reworked the Ford shaft as follows: first we cut it off just above the hole Ford used to mount their drive gear. Then we turned the shaft to just over half inch diameter and reamed the oilite bushings to match. The shaft then needed to be turned to a slightly smaller diameter at the bottom end to mate to the Buick drive gear. We drilled a new hole for the retaining split-pin and milled flats onto the shaft's end for the oil pump drive.



BlownMGB-V8
Jim Blackwood
9406 Gunpowder Rd., Florence, KY 41042
(5812 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 12:59PM

Main British Car:
1971 MGB Blown,Injected,Intercooled Buick 340/AA80E/JagIRS

authors avatar
Re: Sensing cam position on Buick/Rover V8
Posted by: BlownMGB-V8
Date: August 29, 2013 11:52AM

Very nice. I expect you might sell a few of those if extra parts were made.

Jim


Rotus8guy
John Bowman
East Point, GA
(18 posts)

Registered:
05/09/2013 08:10AM

Main British Car:
Rotus Seven Olds/Buick 292

Re: Sensing cam position on Buick/Rover V8
Posted by: Rotus8guy
Date: August 29, 2013 06:52PM

If the price was no more than moderately exorbitant, I'd go for one :-)


mstemp
Mike Stemp
Calgary, Canada
(199 posts)

Registered:
11/25/2009 07:18AM

Main British Car:
1980 MGB Rover 4.6L

Re: Sensing cam position on Buick/Rover V8
Posted by: mstemp
Date: August 29, 2013 10:45PM

Ok I need to ask a basic question. Why do you need this? To account for chain stretch?
You have the crank sensor for the ignition timing already.......

Thanks


Moderator
Curtis Jacobson
Portland Oregon
(4411 posts)

Registered:
10/12/2007 02:16AM

Main British Car:
71 MGBGT, Buick 215

authors avatar
Re: Sensing cam position on Buick/Rover V8
Posted by: Moderator
Date: August 29, 2013 10:45PM

I'm sure my friend Scott would be happy to make more of them. If there's enough interest, perhaps a group buy could be arranged.

I learned yesterday that Buick created something similar for Grand National. The Buick version can be found on eBay, here. It ain't exactly bargain priced though, and it appears to be about an inch taller. That would likely be a problem for me. (I'm getting ready to mount something directly above the cam sender... I'll post pictures of the mystery part soon.) I also have no idea what the Buick sensor's electrical characteristics are. It appears to have a three-pin Weather-Pack connector.


Moderator
Curtis Jacobson
Portland Oregon
(4411 posts)

Registered:
10/12/2007 02:16AM

Main British Car:
71 MGBGT, Buick 215

authors avatar
Re: Sensing cam position on Buick/Rover V8
Posted by: Moderator
Date: August 29, 2013 10:49PM

Quote:
Why do you need this?

The crank position sensor gives a precise timing signal, but it doesn't provide the computer with a way to differentiate between the intake stroke and the power stroke (or between the compression stroke and the exhaust stroke.)


mgb260
Jim Nichols
Sequim,WA
(1994 posts)

Registered:
02/29/2008 08:29PM

Main British Car:
1973 MGB roadster 260 Ford V8

Re: Sensing cam position on Buick/Rover V8
Posted by: mgb260
Date: August 29, 2013 10:58PM

Another work of art, Curtis!


BlownMGB-V8
Jim Blackwood
9406 Gunpowder Rd., Florence, KY 41042
(5812 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 12:59PM

Main British Car:
1971 MGB Blown,Injected,Intercooled Buick 340/AA80E/JagIRS

authors avatar
Re: Sensing cam position on Buick/Rover V8
Posted by: BlownMGB-V8
Date: August 30, 2013 09:53AM

It's very nice, and shorter than the one I made from an old 215 distributor, which in my case would have helped as I had to dimple in the bottom of my thermostat neck for clearance (ain't TIG grand?) Of course the stock neck is not in the way like that.

I would guess the GN sensor uses power, ground, and signal. Possibly a Hall sensor.

The MS-3, with discrete individual cylinder control, needs to know when #1 comes up on the compression stroke. Some of the other controllers do too.

Jim


Rotus8guy
John Bowman
East Point, GA
(18 posts)

Registered:
05/09/2013 08:10AM

Main British Car:
Rotus Seven Olds/Buick 292

Re: Sensing cam position on Buick/Rover V8
Posted by: Rotus8guy
Date: August 30, 2013 12:14PM

Curtis,
Thanks for the link to that GN sensor. A quick search on that part # finds many choices. OEM replacement parts for as low as $108 shipped. Yours looks nicer, but I cant imagine Scott could do it for less than that.
Cheers,
John



quietone
Larry Mimbs
Tennille, Ga.
(91 posts)

Registered:
07/13/2013 04:22PM

Main British Car:


Re: Sensing cam position on Buick/Rover V8
Posted by: quietone
Date: September 26, 2013 05:39PM

If you need a cam sensor and a shorter engine (almost 5 inches) you can use a Buick 3800 V6 series II front cover and oil pump. It has a sensor that operates by a magnet mounted in the timing gear. You will have to use DIS and do some minor machine work on the nose of the cam. Everything works, but you have to make a little plate to block off an oil mismatch.


Moderator
Curtis Jacobson
Portland Oregon
(4411 posts)

Registered:
10/12/2007 02:16AM

Main British Car:
71 MGBGT, Buick 215

authors avatar
Re: Sensing cam position on Buick/Rover V8
Posted by: Moderator
Date: September 27, 2013 02:24AM

Now there's an idea! Looks like GM offered at least 5 different oil filter adapters for those engines, so you can point the filter 5 different directions. That's as far as my research got before I started looking at pics of buick's (eaton) m62 blower. tres fantastique! (I have to sign off now and resume my Paris vacation.) Somebody please post some pics of that s2 cover.


NCtim
Tim Shumbera
Western North Carolina
(238 posts)

Registered:
01/19/2012 04:35PM

Main British Car:


Re: Sensing cam position on Buick/Rover V8
Posted by: NCtim
Date: October 08, 2013 05:45PM

Quote:
If you need a cam sensor and a shorter engine (almost 5 inches) you can use a Buick 3800 V6 series II front cover and oil pump. It has a sensor that operates by a magnet mounted in the timing gear. You will have to use DIS and do some minor machine work on the nose of the cam. Everything works, but you have to make a little plate to block off an oil mismatch.

Has anyone tried this on a distributorless engine such as a Rover GEMS engine?

Tim


DiDueColpi
Fred Key
West coast - Canada
(1259 posts)

Registered:
05/14/2010 03:06AM

Main British Car:
What if the Hokey Pokey really is what it's all about?

authors avatar
Re: Sensing cam position on Buick/Rover V8
Posted by: DiDueColpi
Date: October 08, 2013 06:38PM

I like your cam sensor Curtis. Nicely done.
Have you thought about a method to lube the bushings?
Dried out bearings were the # 1 failure on the Ford sensors.
The very first ones actually had a grease fitting that got deleted later on. You can see the boss for it on the housing.
Just a thought.
Cheers
Fred


DiDueColpi
Fred Key
West coast - Canada
(1259 posts)

Registered:
05/14/2010 03:06AM

Main British Car:
What if the Hokey Pokey really is what it's all about?

authors avatar
Re: Sensing cam position on Buick/Rover V8
Posted by: DiDueColpi
Date: October 08, 2013 06:41PM

Hey Tim,
The GEMS engines had a cam position sensor built right into the timing cover.
No need to do anything. just wire it up.
Cheers
Fred
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