Engine and Transmission Tech

I know that this is not an MGB engine conversion subject, but it is nevertheless a small block ford 5 Liters (EFI) into something else that could help anyone required to go through emission testing and maybe also address unresolved overheating problems.

In my case, I keep failing the NOX part of the emission test, and it got me searching the net for a solution to cool down the combustion peak temperature that helps send the NOX numbers up. Because I removed the EGR valve intended to lower combustion temperature, I only have the timing and fuel metering left in helping me tweak the NOX numbers which unfortunately, I still came up short of the required number to pass. BTW, I do also run high flow converters.

While searching for an alternative to replace the intended EGR function, I came across this interesting product that not only guarantees to lower emission, but also guarantees to improve the fuel mileage by 25%. [www.aquatune.com]

It sounded too good to be true so I called the manufacturer of the product; they turned out to be pretty informative and friendly. It's quite an interesting concept, and if anyone ever had a car battery explode in their face, then you'll understand the power of hydrogen. It's a little pricey, but at 25% fuel saving and added efficiency (power) it would not take that long to payback the purchase cost. Moreover, I don't have to undo the high performance modifications that contributed in the NOX test failure. It also helps the Ford ODB1 manage the modification easier and doesn't have to push the injectors as hard.

Does anyone have experience with, or knows about this system? I would like to know as it seems like it could help solving lots of problem we face with engine conversion and also engines overheating from peak combustion temperatures. I hope that I did not annoyed anyone with this subject and I would like to share your thoughts on this system. [www.aquatune.com] I could use water injection, but it does reduce the efficiency in certain ways. Here's also an early EPA old test article on combustion temperature [nepis.epa.gov]

Jacques

I'd like to see them burning that 1.5 L/min of Hydrogen/Oxygen that they claim it produces. Should be a pretty big flame.

Jim

Sadly the conversion consumes more energy than it produces.
And as the only energy introduced into the system is gasoline oxidized in a ICE it can only be so efficient.
Same deal with hybrids. They are just giant averaging machines with a huge environmental penalty.
Jacques, water injection is a well traveled path to lower Nox. And It lets you crank things up if done well.
So does EGR. Re-installing it gives you emissions compliance as well as expanded tuning opportunities.
Cheers
Fred

Fred, I don't quite understand how it consumes more energy than it produces other than water and the shock of the initial cost?!?! If you go through their web site, you'll see that because the hydrogen produced by their device delivers some additional energy (hydrogen has no emission), which prompts the oxygen sensors to signal the ECU to back off on fuel injection metering; this is where the 25% increase in fuel milage efficiency comes from. According to the manufacturer, the placement of the nozzle(s) is critical for it to work; inaccurate distribution won't do the trick with the O2 sensors.

As far as the EGR function goes, I agree with you and I always have preached to leave the EGR alone, however, this is the way I've purchased the vehicle. The reason people do away with the EGR is because it doesn't mate with their high performance modifications. The after-market is not friendly enough to emission situations someone may be faced with. It seems that they take the approach that most vehicle are old enough to be test exempted; testing older cars is rapidly changing in large cities.

Water injection has had its share of problems in past too, such as, hydro-locking engines and difficulties in finding a management control that meets different engine load demands; however, it will definitely reduce peak combustion temperatures and lower NOX emission.

Modern EFI ODBII systems tuning can be easily modify with a hand tuner/programmer, but you can't go but so far. Some do have the ability to turn off the EGR function for "RACING ONLY" and can be returned to its original settings with a few strokes of the programmer's key. I don't believe that anyone building a Megasquirt has any provision for EGR function, Jim Blackwood could detail the system better as I have never built one to comment on its abilities.

Some of the latest cars do not have an EGR system anymore, it is all managed by computer's response to the sensors (thanks to the wideband O2 sensor advancements). A few months back, I've purchased a Pro-M racing engine management for the Ford small block and when I questioned the lack of control for the EGR system, the tech department told me that it wasn't necessary with their system; I'll let you know, if their claim holds up, when I'm done and go through emission testing!?!?!

Cheers!

I know a lot of guys are working on those Brown's Gas generators but I have yet to see an actual demonstration that produces the sort of volume claimed here. Or the sort of low power demands claimed. It's in the same league with Zero Point energy harvesting schemes. Possible perhaps but unperfected. Like I said, I'd have to see the flame. (Or the proof of it since hydrogen burns with a nearly invisible flame as I understand it.)

As for the EGR, I do think you could use one of the aux outputs on MS to run that, no reason you couldn't. I don't know if anyone is doing it or not. One of the California guys might know.

Jim

Jim, I'm looking for a smart way to control the on-off time of water injection. One has to be very careful not to overspray and hydro-lock the engine and bend a rod. Having said that, and for the sole purpose of reducing NOX emission, we can assume that cruising at part throttle is the lean stage where the water injection system has to calibrate things in the combustion chamber and reduce peak combustion temps. The question is how?

A vacuum switch calibrated to operate the system at high vacuum (cruising) is a crude monitoring way; I would think that someone would also have to monitor the exhaust temperatures in conjunction with pre-set tables. We also know that water injection helps with spark knocks and timing advance, therefore it would also need to be calibrated for optimum timing to maintain combustion efficiency.

I know that some of you out-there are a lot smarter than me to formulate an answer to these challenges; most major water injection systems that I have come across seems to address mostly boost conditions. Does anyone of you have any suggestions on covering the NOX emission problem while also enhancing ignition timing efficiency through the benefit of water injection?

Talking to old timers and reading on water injection systems going back to the sixties; the problem seemed to have been for the public to keep water in the system at all times, including freezing winter (mixture). I believe to be a worthwhile cause for us to explore, especially on engines where overheating seems to have no cure. Please chime in with your suggestions....

Cheers,

Jacques

Is hydrolock really a concern? Seems to me you'd have to run a lot of water through the engine to have a problem with that. Let's say you have a 30cc combustion chamber and another 20 with the piston, that's 200cc per revolution. According to my calculations that's about a gallon a second at 1000 rpm. I know sometimes it happens with top fuel engines but they are pouring something like 4 gallons of nitro through the engine in a 1/4 mile run. Most water injection is never going to come anywhere close to that. I ran my car through pouring rain with an Enderlie style scoop and never a hiccup.

So realistically it might be more a matter of determining an effective minimum quantity where you can always add more. Probably there is an optimum amount. What happens if you go over that figure? Maybe you do not completely vaporize the water and you have water droplets in the exhaust. I really don't know and so I'm guessing here. There were some very crude systems in use in the past. A simple tube into the intake from a holding tank would suck in water under vacuum. A solenoid was added to shut it off at idle, an orifice was added to regulate the flow so the tank could be a reasonable size, a pump so you could push it in at WOT, things like that. Today you could probably pwm control the delivery.

Jim

Jim, Aqua Tune also injects water; below are their main claims which I'm trying to validate but I'm struggling:

. AquaTune is half water injection and half hydrogen production
. AquaTunePlus outperforms All other systems on the market!
. Our system produces 2.5L Hydrogen per minute at 8 atmospheric pressure, using only 1.5 amps;
. Never needs cleaning;
. Never needs manipulation of computer sensors, even on OBDII vehicles;
. We guarantee and you can expect to gain a minimum of at least 25% increase in mpg and up to 30% in hp;
. Gets rid of all turbo lag;
. Can now use regular fuel instead of premium grade fuel;
. Will not interfere with emissions or any sensors;
. Lowers oil temp. by 25 degrees;
. Eliminates ALL pre-detonation problems;
. Longer time between oil changes;
. Removes all carbon in engine and, therefore, prolongs engine life;
. Will not harm the engine or the system if you run out of water;
. System has a one year warranty on the processor, extended warranty available; Extended warranty is automatic when system installed by an authorized installer;
. Established 1972 - We've come a long way since then;
. Tech. support available - we still give the human touch;
. Open six days per week - hours are Mon.-Fri. 8:30-6:00 (except on Wed., Open 'til 5:00) and Saturday, 10:00-4:00, Central Time;
. Every kit complete including vehicle specific installation instructions;
. Will not void new car warranty. See US code - title 15, Chapter 50, Sec. 2302-2312 of the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act.
. Easy to see why we are, without a doubt, the best on the market!

That's quite a list of claims; doest it worth spending your hard earned cash? I'd say yes if all were true, but you know how it goes these days!?!?!

I wonder if their marketing guy really knows anything about the system. It sounds like so much snake oil, reminds me of 1800's newspaper ads. Does it also cure Herpes?

Again, 2.5L of hydrogen, (roughly 5L of "Brown's Gas" since there would be no point in separating out the oxygen) is a tremendous quantity to generate in one minute. I'm not saying it can't, hasn't, or isn't being done but it would take some sizeable and sophisticated equipment to do it. Frankly, their equipment does not look big enough or sophisticated enough and 1.5A of current seems marginal at best. As I said before, I would want to see the output of their gas generator coupled to a burner and lit up before they'd get one red cent of my money. 80+cc of Brown's Gas per second should make a nice fat flame in a bunsen burner. Personally, I don't believe they are doing it. If they really are, they should have no problem with proving it.

And by the way, how much difference is that 80 cc/sec going to make in an engine that is gulping down close to 40 gal/sec of air at 1000 rpm? (WOT, 10:1 compression estimate based on earlier posted estimates. Presented for comparison purposes only. YMMV)

Incidentally, this particular field is rife with charlatans and outright crooks. It is essentially an extension of the old perpetual motion scams. Not to say there are no honest people involved but I'm not seeing any scientifically verified results. Buyer beware.

Jim

It's all about generating Brown's gas and water injection. Here's a serious Brown's gas generator used as a torch that can cut steel up to 4 inches. I have a lot to learn about these things and their claims.....
[www.cool-flame.com]

OK let's put this in perspective. The torch uses 24A at 200V to produce 1200L/hr of Brown's Gas (HHO). That works out to about 3A @200v for 2.5L, so at 15v the current requirement to do the same thing would be about 40Amps. What sort of breakthrough do you think it would take to do that with 1.5 A or one twenty-seventh of the power? My BS detector just went into overdrive.

Jim

I agree with you and Fred, and yes hydrogen would be the answer to the automotive world, but I must admit that it did challenged the small bit of knowledge I hold on fuel, combustion process, and gases. This guy is smart no matter what, he threw a few curbs in glamorizing certain fundamentals by also mixing truth and fiction. He does belong in the hall of "SHAME" and not "FAME". Here's a link to the Better Business Bureau of his own state about his product;
[www.waxahachietx.com]

Actually, things like this helps curious gear-heads such as me, explore their base knowledge and better themselves intellectually by exchanging understanding views; I'm glad that I've posted it and thanks to everyone that shared their feelings on this gadget; case solved, I won't be buying it.

Cheers,
Jacques