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tips, technology, tools and techniques related to vehicle driveline components

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NixVegaGT
Nicolas Wiederhold
Minneapolis, MN
(659 posts)

Registered:
10/16/2007 05:30AM

Main British Car:
'73 Vega GT 4.9L Rover/Buick Stroker

authors avatar
Lifters
Posted by: NixVegaGT
Date: July 28, 2008 03:41PM

Anybody got a lifter preference for the Crower 50233:

INTAKE: Duration: 280º Lift: 0.49
EXHAUST: Duration: 286º Lift: 0.5


hoffbug
Tony Hoffer
Minnesota
(323 posts)

Registered:
10/15/2007 05:25PM

Main British Car:
Olds 215 EFI

Re: Lifters
Posted by: hoffbug
Date: July 29, 2008 07:29PM

If I were you Id buy them with the cam.. I believe there are only 1 or 2 companies manufacturing hydraulic lifters anymore... and there have been a rash of failures reported.. so Id definitely follow Crowers' break in instructions.


NixVegaGT
Nicolas Wiederhold
Minneapolis, MN
(659 posts)

Registered:
10/16/2007 05:30AM

Main British Car:
'73 Vega GT 4.9L Rover/Buick Stroker

authors avatar
Re: Lifters
Posted by: NixVegaGT
Date: July 30, 2008 09:36AM

So get Crower lifters then. Back when I was building the Dodge turbo it was beneficial to go with the high RPM low pump up lifters. Not that I'm going for that with this engine but just in case.


NixVegaGT
Nicolas Wiederhold
Minneapolis, MN
(659 posts)

Registered:
10/16/2007 05:30AM

Main British Car:
'73 Vega GT 4.9L Rover/Buick Stroker

authors avatar
Re: Lifters
Posted by: NixVegaGT
Date: July 30, 2008 10:06AM

What about these?

[www.rhoadslifters.com]


hoffbug
Tony Hoffer
Minnesota
(323 posts)

Registered:
10/15/2007 05:25PM

Main British Car:
Olds 215 EFI

Re: Lifters
Posted by: hoffbug
Date: July 30, 2008 11:19AM

They bleed off at low rpm.. The theory is that they would tame down the idle characteristics of a racy cam. They make a distinct ticking noise like a loose rocker... but muffled a bit.


MGBV8
Carl Floyd
Kingsport, TN
(4511 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 11:32PM

Main British Car:
1979 MGB Buick 215

authors avatar
Re: Lifters
Posted by: MGBV8
Date: July 30, 2008 01:16PM

I bought Crower lifters to go with my Crower cam. Good looking convex lifters.


BlownMGB-V8
Jim Blackwood
9406 Gunpowder Rd., Florence, KY 41042
(6468 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 12:59PM

Main British Car:
1971 MGB Blown,Injected,Intercooled Buick 340/AA80E/JagIRS

authors avatar
Re: Lifters
Posted by: BlownMGB-V8
Date: July 30, 2008 02:47PM

The Rhodes lifters do work but they tend to be noisy and really should be used with an adjustable valvetrain so... you were planning on adjustable roller rockers right? ;-)

Jim



Dan Jones
Dan Jones
St. Louis, Missouri
(280 posts)

Registered:
07/21/2008 03:32PM

Main British Car:
1980 Triumph TR8 3.5L Rover V8

Re: Lifters
Posted by: Dan Jones
Date: August 01, 2008 01:03PM

> The Rhodes lifters do work but they tend to be noisy and really should be
> used with an adjustable valvetrain so... you were planning on adjustable
> roller rockers right? ;-)

David Vizard has tested the Rhoads lifters and says the do bleed down at
lower RPM but they never really stiffen up as much as a standard hydraulic
lifter. He much prefers the Crane "semi-leakdown" lifters which bleed down
less and are quieter. If you think about the dynamics of a valve train,
a lifter that bleeds down in time will cause the closing ramp to be missed
and the noise means more impact noise. That can't be good for the valves,
seats, cam and lifters. Kenne Bell presented drag test results which showed
no difference in 1/4 mile times between standard and Rhoads fast bleed
lifters. They recommended using them only on race cams to smooth out the
idle for street use but warned the lifters bleed off oil pressure so a booster
plate and/or longer oil pump gears are required. You do not want to use them
in an engine with high compression and minimal overlap. When building an
engine from scratch, high compression can offset the loss of low end torque
from a long duration cam without the drawbacks of variable duration lifters.

The previous owner of my TR8 installed Rhoads lifters in my engine, along
with a Crane H-216 cam. He used adjustable pushrods to set pre-load but
I don't think he got it correct. I didn't like the noise and pulled them
out to replace them only to find the lifters were all flat on the bottom.
The cam looks fine but I decided not to chance it and ordered up a new
cam better suited to my engine.

Another important decision with that cam is valve springs. You need something
that will handle the lift without coil binding and have enough but not too
much seat pressure. The Federal-Mogul/Speed Pro VS1615 (aka TRW VS966)
valve springs are what D&D recommends for their Crower 50232 cams and say
they raise valve float to 6500 RPM. Specs are: 1.23" OD with 85 lbs on the
seat and a 295 lbs/in rate. Mine have a yellow paint stripe. They are single
springs with dampers.

Our engines take springs similar to early small block Chevys (1.22" OD
or 1.23" OD). There are two common wire diameters, 0.177" and 0.192",
with the larger wire diameter used for the higher rate LT1 springs.
Comp Cams, Melling, Speed Pro, and the cam companies like Comp, Crane
and Crower have similar springs but make sure the installed seat pressure
and coil bind heights are compatible with your specific cam. Here are
some specs:

Part # OD (in.) Closed # Open # Rate(#/in.)
----------------------------------------------
FM VS677 1.20 80 200 267
FM VS739R 1.264 105 277 350 Chevy LT1 spring
FM VS1615 1.23 85 230 295
CC 979 1.24 80 200 267
CC 980 1.23 85 230 325

VS-677; 1.238" OD, 2.03" free length, .177" wire diameter, 6.8 coils,
80# @ 1.7", 200# @ 1.25", coil bind 1.15", 267#/in spring rate, damper

VS-744; 1.225" OD, 2.02" free length, .175" wire diameter, 6.6 coils,
80# @ 1.7", 200# @ 1.25", coil bind 1.15", 267#/in spring rate, no
damper

I wonder if any of the new beehive springs would be suitable for our
applications. No damper is required and the tiny retainers are very
light. Couple with light tubular pushrods and it might up the max RPM.
Most beehives are for hydraulic roller cams and have seat pressures that
are not compatible with flat tappet cams but some like Comps 26113 might
work (93 lbs seat 191 lbs/in rate, 1.061" OD).

Dan Jones


NixVegaGT
Nicolas Wiederhold
Minneapolis, MN
(659 posts)

Registered:
10/16/2007 05:30AM

Main British Car:
'73 Vega GT 4.9L Rover/Buick Stroker

authors avatar
Re: Lifters
Posted by: NixVegaGT
Date: August 02, 2008 10:56AM

I did get the VS1615 springs D&D suggested. I'm using the Crower 50233 cam but the lobe lift is the same as the 232 just more duration. I figure I should be good there. I'm making about just under 12:1 so will probably be doing well with the duration. SWEET. So I'm good with the Crower lifters then.


Dan Jones
Dan Jones
St. Louis, Missouri
(280 posts)

Registered:
07/21/2008 03:32PM

Main British Car:
1980 Triumph TR8 3.5L Rover V8

Re: Lifters
Posted by: Dan Jones
Date: August 05, 2008 11:25AM

> I did get the VS1615 springs D&D suggested. I'm using the Crower
> 50233 cam but the lobe lift is the same as the 232 just more duration.
> I figure I should be good there. I'm making about just under 12:1 so
> will probably be doing well with the duration.

Have you checked coil bind on those springs yet? Max lift on the
50232 is 0.490". Max lift on the 50233 is 0.501". D&D specifies
different valve springs for lift over 0.5".

112 lobe centers is all wrong for that engine and 12:1 compression.

Dan Jones


NixVegaGT
Nicolas Wiederhold
Minneapolis, MN
(659 posts)

Registered:
10/16/2007 05:30AM

Main British Car:
'73 Vega GT 4.9L Rover/Buick Stroker

authors avatar
Re: Lifters
Posted by: NixVegaGT
Date: August 06, 2008 11:42AM

I think I'm OK because my valves are about 40 thou longer than stock. I missed the piston head volume in my CR calculation it's actually more like 11:1.

On the lobe separation: The closest I came to 75º overlap was 110º in the Crane and that was something like 68-70 and the duration was pretty steep to get there and the lift was low. A lot lower: .464 in and .480

Maybe that Crane cam would be closer though. So far I have no idea what cam I should use. LOL!

In the article I should use 108º at 290 and .53+ lift. YIKES! That seems impossibly large. I'll call Vizard and see what he thinks I should do.

Thanks Dan.


Dan Jones
Dan Jones
St. Louis, Missouri
(280 posts)

Registered:
07/21/2008 03:32PM

Main British Car:
1980 Triumph TR8 3.5L Rover V8

Re: Lifters
Posted by: Dan Jones
Date: August 06, 2008 03:02PM

> I think I'm OK because my valves are about 40 thou longer than stock.

but you have to shim the springs to get the seat pressure which puts
you back into possible coil bind.

> On the lobe separation: The closest I came to 75º overlap was 110º
> in the Crane and that was something like 68-70 and the duration was
> pretty steep to get there and the lift was low. A lot lower: .464 in
> and .480

From the lift, you are talking about the Crane H-226/290-2S-10
(Crane part number 890631). I think you used the wrong numbers
to compute overlap. You need to use the SAE timing (at 0.004"
tappet lift). That cam has 68 degrees timing (intake opens at
32 degrees BTDC + exhaust closes at 36 ATDC = 68 degrees overlap)

Cam Timing: Tappet @ 0.004" Lift:
Opens Closes
Intake 32 BTDC 72 ABDC
Exhaust 76 BBDC 36 ATDC

adv dur 0.050" dur lift LSA RPM Range
284/292 226/234 .464"/.480" 110 2200 to 5500

> Maybe that Crane cam would be closer though.

Lobe centers are still 110 degrees. You want 108 degrees.
Crower has some off-the-shelf solid cams with that LSA
but for hydraulic, you may be looking at a custom cam.

> So far I have no idea what cam I should use. LOL!

I'd suggest you call Woody Cooper at the Wedge Shop. He's run
several different Erson customs (hydraulic and solid) in his TR8
stroker engine and should be able to point you in the right
direction.

> In the article I should use 108º at 290 and .53+ lift. YIKES!
> That seems impossibly large. I'll call Vizard and see what he
> thinks I should do.

The 0.530"+ lift is caveated with "use the maximum lift
consistent with your longevity goals". In this case, it's
the lobe center that is most important, followed by the
overlap that sets your RPM range. Let lift fall out based
upon the lobe shape selected. The 290 degrees is seat
duration and that can correlate to as little as 214 degrees
at 0.050". Here's a list of Erson's hydraulic lobes:

.050 adv lobe 1.6:1
dur dur lift lift

RV5H 202 274 0.273 0.437
RV10H 208 280 0.280 0.448
RV15H 214 288 0.288 0.461 (0.458)
TQ20H 214 292 0.299 0.478
TQ30H 226 310 0.310 0.496

Hiflow AH 220 284 0.315 0.504
Hiflow IH 228 296 0.315 0.504
Hiflow IIH 235 306 0.315 0.504
Hiflow IIIH 240 316 0.315 0.504

H308/.335 244 308 0.335 0.536
H312/.335 248 312 0.335 0.536
H316/.335 252 314 0.335 0.536

and 0.842" minimum lifter diamter solid lifter lobes:

.050 lash lobe lash 1.6:1
dur dur lift ramp lift

RV10M 210 254 .290 0.015 0.464
RV15M 218 266 .290 0.015 0.464

TQ20M 220 270 .310 0.015 0.496
TQ30M 230 280 .310 0.015 0.496

HIFLOW IM 242 286 .340 0.015 0.544
HIFLOW IIM 246 296 .340 0.015 0.544
HIFLOW IIIM 254 306 .340 0.015 0.544

Note the HIFLOW IM solid lifter lobe has 242 degrees @ 0.050" lift
and 0.544" lift but 286 degrees lash duration. The milder RV15H lobe
has a similar 288 degrees advertised duration but only 214 degrees at
0.050" lift and 0.461" lift.

Dan Jones


NixVegaGT
Nicolas Wiederhold
Minneapolis, MN
(659 posts)

Registered:
10/16/2007 05:30AM

Main British Car:
'73 Vega GT 4.9L Rover/Buick Stroker

authors avatar
Re: Lifters
Posted by: NixVegaGT
Date: August 07, 2008 12:31PM

I emailed Woody. He got back to me in a couple of minutes! Cool. He suggested the Erson Hiflow IIIH 240 316 0.315 0.504 that you listed. SO I went off on the web to find more info about them and NOTHING! WHAAA?

I guess Mr. Gasket owns Erson now but there is nothing about them on the website. sucks.


Dan Jones
Dan Jones
St. Louis, Missouri
(280 posts)

Registered:
07/21/2008 03:32PM

Main British Car:
1980 Triumph TR8 3.5L Rover V8

Re: Lifters
Posted by: Dan Jones
Date: August 07, 2008 03:47PM

PBM owns Erson now:

[www.pbm-erson.com]

I don't think they have their catalog online. I've got one from a
few years back but it doesn't have Woody's custom grinds in it.

That Hiflow IIIH is a pretty healthy cam. Make sure to ask Woody
what sort of RPM it wants for cruise.

Dan Jones


NixVegaGT
Nicolas Wiederhold
Minneapolis, MN
(659 posts)

Registered:
10/16/2007 05:30AM

Main British Car:
'73 Vega GT 4.9L Rover/Buick Stroker

authors avatar
Re: Lifters
Posted by: NixVegaGT
Date: August 07, 2008 05:07PM

OK so the question is now do I need to change the springs for this cam… Probably. Will do, Dan.

SWEET find on the Erson site. Thanks man!!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/07/2008 05:08PM by NixVegaGT.



hoffbug
Tony Hoffer
Minnesota
(323 posts)

Registered:
10/15/2007 05:25PM

Main British Car:
Olds 215 EFI

Re: Lifters
Posted by: hoffbug
Date: August 07, 2008 10:27PM

So.. Has anyone looked into roller cams for these engines?


Dan Jones
Dan Jones
St. Louis, Missouri
(280 posts)

Registered:
07/21/2008 03:32PM

Main British Car:
1980 Triumph TR8 3.5L Rover V8

Re: Lifters
Posted by: Dan Jones
Date: August 08, 2008 01:02PM

> So.. Has anyone looked into roller cams for these engines?

[www.thewedgeshop.com]

Note the price, $1759 for the shrouded lifters and cam.
I talked to Woody about the price and he says it's because
each cam is made at Erson's CNC shop as complete custom,
not just a combination of catalog lobes. TA Performance
may also be looking into 215/300/340 hydraulic roller cams.

Dan Jones


Wotland
Wotland Wotland

(105 posts)

Registered:
01/07/2008 08:14AM

Main British Car:


Re: Lifters
Posted by: Wotland
Date: September 06, 2008 07:24AM

Someone continues to use ford mushroom tapped ? Repco F5000 block used them. Of course block need to be bronze bushed.


MGBV8
Carl Floyd
Kingsport, TN
(4511 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 11:32PM

Main British Car:
1979 MGB Buick 215

authors avatar
Re: Lifters
Posted by: MGBV8
Date: September 06, 2008 10:03AM

"TA Performance may also be looking into 215/300/340 hydraulic roller cams"

That would be a big help!


WedgeWorks1
Mike Perkins
Ellicott City, Maryland
(460 posts)

Registered:
07/06/2008 08:07AM

Main British Car:
1980 Triumph TR8 3.5 Litre Rover V8

authors avatar
Re: Lifters
Posted by: WedgeWorks1
Date: September 06, 2008 09:15PM

Tim Lanocha is using roller cams in at least three engines. All of them are 284+ rear wheel horsepower. Two of the three have Buick 340 iron heads to get the flow and rpms and programable fuel injection. It is a complicated set up but once together and tuned the engines scream!
4.6 longa.jpg
Group 44 TR8 had 3.9 Rover V8s would run a roller cam on thier 360 horsepower sprint engines.
-Michael



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/06/2008 09:22PM by WedgeWorks1.
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