NixVegaGT Nicolas Wiederhold Minneapolis, MN (659 posts) Registered: 10/16/2007 05:30AM Main British Car: '73 Vega GT 4.9L Rover/Buick Stroker |
Lifters
Anybody got a lifter preference for the Crower 50233:
INTAKE: Duration: 280º Lift: 0.49 EXHAUST: Duration: 286º Lift: 0.5 |
hoffbug Tony Hoffer Minnesota (323 posts) Registered: 10/15/2007 05:25PM Main British Car: Olds 215 EFI |
Re: Lifters
If I were you Id buy them with the cam.. I believe there are only 1 or 2 companies manufacturing hydraulic lifters anymore... and there have been a rash of failures reported.. so Id definitely follow Crowers' break in instructions.
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NixVegaGT Nicolas Wiederhold Minneapolis, MN (659 posts) Registered: 10/16/2007 05:30AM Main British Car: '73 Vega GT 4.9L Rover/Buick Stroker |
Re: Lifters
So get Crower lifters then. Back when I was building the Dodge turbo it was beneficial to go with the high RPM low pump up lifters. Not that I'm going for that with this engine but just in case.
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NixVegaGT Nicolas Wiederhold Minneapolis, MN (659 posts) Registered: 10/16/2007 05:30AM Main British Car: '73 Vega GT 4.9L Rover/Buick Stroker |
Re: Lifters
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hoffbug Tony Hoffer Minnesota (323 posts) Registered: 10/15/2007 05:25PM Main British Car: Olds 215 EFI |
Re: Lifters
They bleed off at low rpm.. The theory is that they would tame down the idle characteristics of a racy cam. They make a distinct ticking noise like a loose rocker... but muffled a bit.
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BlownMGB-V8 Jim Blackwood 9406 Gunpowder Rd., Florence, KY 41042 (6468 posts) Registered: 10/23/2007 12:59PM Main British Car: 1971 MGB Blown,Injected,Intercooled Buick 340/AA80E/JagIRS |
Re: Lifters
The Rhodes lifters do work but they tend to be noisy and really should be used with an adjustable valvetrain so... you were planning on adjustable roller rockers right? ;-)
Jim |
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Dan Jones Dan Jones St. Louis, Missouri (280 posts) Registered: 07/21/2008 03:32PM Main British Car: 1980 Triumph TR8 3.5L Rover V8 |
Re: Lifters
> The Rhodes lifters do work but they tend to be noisy and really should be
> used with an adjustable valvetrain so... you were planning on adjustable > roller rockers right? ;-) David Vizard has tested the Rhoads lifters and says the do bleed down at lower RPM but they never really stiffen up as much as a standard hydraulic lifter. He much prefers the Crane "semi-leakdown" lifters which bleed down less and are quieter. If you think about the dynamics of a valve train, a lifter that bleeds down in time will cause the closing ramp to be missed and the noise means more impact noise. That can't be good for the valves, seats, cam and lifters. Kenne Bell presented drag test results which showed no difference in 1/4 mile times between standard and Rhoads fast bleed lifters. They recommended using them only on race cams to smooth out the idle for street use but warned the lifters bleed off oil pressure so a booster plate and/or longer oil pump gears are required. You do not want to use them in an engine with high compression and minimal overlap. When building an engine from scratch, high compression can offset the loss of low end torque from a long duration cam without the drawbacks of variable duration lifters. The previous owner of my TR8 installed Rhoads lifters in my engine, along with a Crane H-216 cam. He used adjustable pushrods to set pre-load but I don't think he got it correct. I didn't like the noise and pulled them out to replace them only to find the lifters were all flat on the bottom. The cam looks fine but I decided not to chance it and ordered up a new cam better suited to my engine. Another important decision with that cam is valve springs. You need something that will handle the lift without coil binding and have enough but not too much seat pressure. The Federal-Mogul/Speed Pro VS1615 (aka TRW VS966) valve springs are what D&D recommends for their Crower 50232 cams and say they raise valve float to 6500 RPM. Specs are: 1.23" OD with 85 lbs on the seat and a 295 lbs/in rate. Mine have a yellow paint stripe. They are single springs with dampers. Our engines take springs similar to early small block Chevys (1.22" OD or 1.23" OD). There are two common wire diameters, 0.177" and 0.192", with the larger wire diameter used for the higher rate LT1 springs. Comp Cams, Melling, Speed Pro, and the cam companies like Comp, Crane and Crower have similar springs but make sure the installed seat pressure and coil bind heights are compatible with your specific cam. Here are some specs: Part # OD (in.) Closed # Open # Rate(#/in.) ---------------------------------------------- FM VS677 1.20 80 200 267 FM VS739R 1.264 105 277 350 Chevy LT1 spring FM VS1615 1.23 85 230 295 CC 979 1.24 80 200 267 CC 980 1.23 85 230 325 VS-677; 1.238" OD, 2.03" free length, .177" wire diameter, 6.8 coils, 80# @ 1.7", 200# @ 1.25", coil bind 1.15", 267#/in spring rate, damper VS-744; 1.225" OD, 2.02" free length, .175" wire diameter, 6.6 coils, 80# @ 1.7", 200# @ 1.25", coil bind 1.15", 267#/in spring rate, no damper I wonder if any of the new beehive springs would be suitable for our applications. No damper is required and the tiny retainers are very light. Couple with light tubular pushrods and it might up the max RPM. Most beehives are for hydraulic roller cams and have seat pressures that are not compatible with flat tappet cams but some like Comps 26113 might work (93 lbs seat 191 lbs/in rate, 1.061" OD). Dan Jones |
NixVegaGT Nicolas Wiederhold Minneapolis, MN (659 posts) Registered: 10/16/2007 05:30AM Main British Car: '73 Vega GT 4.9L Rover/Buick Stroker |
Re: Lifters
I did get the VS1615 springs D&D suggested. I'm using the Crower 50233 cam but the lobe lift is the same as the 232 just more duration. I figure I should be good there. I'm making about just under 12:1 so will probably be doing well with the duration. SWEET. So I'm good with the Crower lifters then.
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Dan Jones Dan Jones St. Louis, Missouri (280 posts) Registered: 07/21/2008 03:32PM Main British Car: 1980 Triumph TR8 3.5L Rover V8 |
Re: Lifters
> I did get the VS1615 springs D&D suggested. I'm using the Crower
> 50233 cam but the lobe lift is the same as the 232 just more duration. > I figure I should be good there. I'm making about just under 12:1 so > will probably be doing well with the duration. Have you checked coil bind on those springs yet? Max lift on the 50232 is 0.490". Max lift on the 50233 is 0.501". D&D specifies different valve springs for lift over 0.5". 112 lobe centers is all wrong for that engine and 12:1 compression. Dan Jones |
NixVegaGT Nicolas Wiederhold Minneapolis, MN (659 posts) Registered: 10/16/2007 05:30AM Main British Car: '73 Vega GT 4.9L Rover/Buick Stroker |
Re: Lifters
I think I'm OK because my valves are about 40 thou longer than stock. I missed the piston head volume in my CR calculation it's actually more like 11:1.
On the lobe separation: The closest I came to 75º overlap was 110º in the Crane and that was something like 68-70 and the duration was pretty steep to get there and the lift was low. A lot lower: .464 in and .480 Maybe that Crane cam would be closer though. So far I have no idea what cam I should use. LOL! In the article I should use 108º at 290 and .53+ lift. YIKES! That seems impossibly large. I'll call Vizard and see what he thinks I should do. Thanks Dan. |
Dan Jones Dan Jones St. Louis, Missouri (280 posts) Registered: 07/21/2008 03:32PM Main British Car: 1980 Triumph TR8 3.5L Rover V8 |
Re: Lifters
> I think I'm OK because my valves are about 40 thou longer than stock.
but you have to shim the springs to get the seat pressure which puts you back into possible coil bind. > On the lobe separation: The closest I came to 75º overlap was 110º > in the Crane and that was something like 68-70 and the duration was > pretty steep to get there and the lift was low. A lot lower: .464 in > and .480 From the lift, you are talking about the Crane H-226/290-2S-10 (Crane part number 890631). I think you used the wrong numbers to compute overlap. You need to use the SAE timing (at 0.004" tappet lift). That cam has 68 degrees timing (intake opens at 32 degrees BTDC + exhaust closes at 36 ATDC = 68 degrees overlap) Cam Timing: Tappet @ 0.004" Lift: Opens Closes Intake 32 BTDC 72 ABDC Exhaust 76 BBDC 36 ATDC adv dur 0.050" dur lift LSA RPM Range 284/292 226/234 .464"/.480" 110 2200 to 5500 > Maybe that Crane cam would be closer though. Lobe centers are still 110 degrees. You want 108 degrees. Crower has some off-the-shelf solid cams with that LSA but for hydraulic, you may be looking at a custom cam. > So far I have no idea what cam I should use. LOL! I'd suggest you call Woody Cooper at the Wedge Shop. He's run several different Erson customs (hydraulic and solid) in his TR8 stroker engine and should be able to point you in the right direction. > In the article I should use 108º at 290 and .53+ lift. YIKES! > That seems impossibly large. I'll call Vizard and see what he > thinks I should do. The 0.530"+ lift is caveated with "use the maximum lift consistent with your longevity goals". In this case, it's the lobe center that is most important, followed by the overlap that sets your RPM range. Let lift fall out based upon the lobe shape selected. The 290 degrees is seat duration and that can correlate to as little as 214 degrees at 0.050". Here's a list of Erson's hydraulic lobes: .050 adv lobe 1.6:1 dur dur lift lift RV5H 202 274 0.273 0.437 RV10H 208 280 0.280 0.448 RV15H 214 288 0.288 0.461 (0.458) TQ20H 214 292 0.299 0.478 TQ30H 226 310 0.310 0.496 Hiflow AH 220 284 0.315 0.504 Hiflow IH 228 296 0.315 0.504 Hiflow IIH 235 306 0.315 0.504 Hiflow IIIH 240 316 0.315 0.504 H308/.335 244 308 0.335 0.536 H312/.335 248 312 0.335 0.536 H316/.335 252 314 0.335 0.536 and 0.842" minimum lifter diamter solid lifter lobes: .050 lash lobe lash 1.6:1 dur dur lift ramp lift RV10M 210 254 .290 0.015 0.464 RV15M 218 266 .290 0.015 0.464 TQ20M 220 270 .310 0.015 0.496 TQ30M 230 280 .310 0.015 0.496 HIFLOW IM 242 286 .340 0.015 0.544 HIFLOW IIM 246 296 .340 0.015 0.544 HIFLOW IIIM 254 306 .340 0.015 0.544 Note the HIFLOW IM solid lifter lobe has 242 degrees @ 0.050" lift and 0.544" lift but 286 degrees lash duration. The milder RV15H lobe has a similar 288 degrees advertised duration but only 214 degrees at 0.050" lift and 0.461" lift. Dan Jones |
NixVegaGT Nicolas Wiederhold Minneapolis, MN (659 posts) Registered: 10/16/2007 05:30AM Main British Car: '73 Vega GT 4.9L Rover/Buick Stroker |
Re: Lifters
I emailed Woody. He got back to me in a couple of minutes! Cool. He suggested the Erson Hiflow IIIH 240 316 0.315 0.504 that you listed. SO I went off on the web to find more info about them and NOTHING! WHAAA?
I guess Mr. Gasket owns Erson now but there is nothing about them on the website. sucks. |
Dan Jones Dan Jones St. Louis, Missouri (280 posts) Registered: 07/21/2008 03:32PM Main British Car: 1980 Triumph TR8 3.5L Rover V8 |
Re: Lifters
PBM owns Erson now:
[www.pbm-erson.com] I don't think they have their catalog online. I've got one from a few years back but it doesn't have Woody's custom grinds in it. That Hiflow IIIH is a pretty healthy cam. Make sure to ask Woody what sort of RPM it wants for cruise. Dan Jones |
NixVegaGT Nicolas Wiederhold Minneapolis, MN (659 posts) Registered: 10/16/2007 05:30AM Main British Car: '73 Vega GT 4.9L Rover/Buick Stroker |
Re: Lifters
OK so the question is now do I need to change the springs for this cam… Probably. Will do, Dan.
SWEET find on the Erson site. Thanks man!! Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/07/2008 05:08PM by NixVegaGT. |
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Dan Jones Dan Jones St. Louis, Missouri (280 posts) Registered: 07/21/2008 03:32PM Main British Car: 1980 Triumph TR8 3.5L Rover V8 |
Re: Lifters
> So.. Has anyone looked into roller cams for these engines?
[www.thewedgeshop.com] Note the price, $1759 for the shrouded lifters and cam. I talked to Woody about the price and he says it's because each cam is made at Erson's CNC shop as complete custom, not just a combination of catalog lobes. TA Performance may also be looking into 215/300/340 hydraulic roller cams. Dan Jones |
WedgeWorks1 Mike Perkins Ellicott City, Maryland (460 posts) Registered: 07/06/2008 08:07AM Main British Car: 1980 Triumph TR8 3.5 Litre Rover V8 |
Re: Lifters
Tim Lanocha is using roller cams in at least three engines. All of them are 284+ rear wheel horsepower. Two of the three have Buick 340 iron heads to get the flow and rpms and programable fuel injection. It is a complicated set up but once together and tuned the engines scream!
Group 44 TR8 had 3.9 Rover V8s would run a roller cam on thier 360 horsepower sprint engines. -Michael Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/06/2008 09:22PM by WedgeWorks1. |