Engine and Transmission Tech

Brian, Here are deck heights for 5.0 Ford 8.206, LS Chevy 9.235. Ford overall height 27", width 26". LS overall height 28, width 25". Higher deck height makes the LS wider at the exhaust.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/07/2013 12:04AM by mgb260.

Thought I read it was a bit wider somewhere. On Scotts thread, it certainly looks like it too but then again, he is really getting that engine far back in the bay. When your going through the work to begin with- I suppose why not a little more!

So the LSx is lighter than the Ford 302 but when the 302 gets the alloy heads- teh weight is within ___ pounds. Probably not worth the weight difference if the money is spent on a set of alloy heads.

The 302 is about 1" narrower- or there about?

I haven't read anything about the angle of the ports on either nor any difference between cylinder heads of the various LSx series or the aftermarket or stock 302 heads. I would imagine this has some importance when considering header location and design.

-BMC.

Just for fun. This engine was going in to a 1965 Mustang one of the employees had. It was such a nice looking motor, I asked him to put it half way into this BGT and take a photo so we could send it off the the owner. Nice guys we are- teasing people like that.

-BMC.

Oh what the heck. The evening the Mustang was pushed in and the motor dropped in place.

Here are the measurements of the Corvette version of the LS1. It is the second most compact LS next to the LS4.






If you count the LS4, which most people don't, there are basically 4 different engine lengths based upon the accessory drive setup at the front of the motor. Here is a comparison of the harmonic balancers for the other 3.



I measured the distance across the heads at the widest part just below the outer part of the valve covers and got about 20 1/8" give or take. This doesn't include the exhaust manifolds/plug wires. The length of the LS4 from the front edge of the harmonic balancer to the bellhousing mounting surface is 23 1/4". From the bottom of the harmonic balancer to the top of the throttle body flange on the intake was approximately 19 1/2".

Another thing to consider is the placement of the steering rack. With the LS4 the pulley has to go behind the rack. Would the truck pulley let the rack sit between the pulley and the timing cover? I suspect it might. If everything else lined up that would let the engine sit about 2" forward of where Scott has his. Someone should look into that, as it might simplify some things like firewall trimming and steering mods a bit.

Jim

hello it's me Mr. Ahlstrom I can't help but to chime in on this topic if a motor ways 25 pounds more or 30 pounds more I can't see the problem if it makes another 150 hp I'm pretty sure it can carry the extra weight I think the most important thing is how well does it fit the space under the hood Ford Motor's are narrow long skinny like British cars the LS motor the advantage that it has is a very strong bottomend if I was running an LS motor I would spray it no less than 500 hp nitrous the bottomend could take it I run a Ford Motor just because it was the best fit for the car and they're very cheap I just purchased a new block to build a new motor for my car this winter nothing wrong with the old motor but that doesn't mean I can't make one better I purchased a 69 boss 302 4 bolt main block for $100 I have already ordered the rotating assembly to make it 347 my plans are in 900 hp at 9200 rpm's and it will still be much cheaper than an LS motor and narrow to fit the car the day I no longer care about how the motor fits I will build for 426 hemi Mopar those are the motors I know best the other thing that I know well our old school motor setups I will not change over to modern-day fuel injection and all that crap until I go to the drag strip or out on the street and get beat by a car running fuel injection all the best drag cars without exception are running old-school holly carburetors or good old-fashioned blowers with holly carburetors don't get me wrong I think all the new high tech stuff is great but I still think all the old-fashioned low-tech stuff is fast.the block I just bought is old but it's small I will checked the weight of it when I get done grinding machining and cutting on it I will bet money it weighs less than an LS short block when I get done modifying it will still not be as strong as an LS block but it will take 1000 hp at 9000 RPMs all day long that's good enough for me

My goal in the spring is to go 1/8 mile in just two gears big solid roller cam and a very wide powerband the people at cam research Ford specialists assure me what I'm building should run 600 hp at 9400 RPM all day long plus nitrous my total cost for the upgrade using my flywheel balancer cylinder heads rocker stud girdles and other parts will only be about $1800 plus machine work which should be about 300 my good friend who bracket raises every weekend just got done changing his car over to an LS motor he says it runs great he says it should run two seasons instead of just one like his old stroked small block Chevy he said he does not think he would do it again because it cost $17,000 to make it run like his small block Chevy I guess I'm just old-fashioned maybe I'm just cheap but I believe the trick is how fast can you make it go without spending money everyone I know with an LS motor says yep runs great but it's not cheap if you want to really spend money try to build a new Ford modular motor that makes the LS motor look cheap

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Another thing to consider is the placement of the steering rack. With the LS4 the pulley has to go behind the rack. Would the truck pulley let the rack sit between the pulley and the timing cover? I suspect it might. If everything else lined up that would let the engine sit about 2" forward of where Scott has his. Someone should look into that, as it might simplify some things like firewall trimming and steering mods a bit.

Jim, I hope Bill Gaulin can respond to this. I believe he is using a truck motor and it looks like he has the truck accessory setup.

I don't believe you will gain 2" though. I would guess less than an inch and most likely you won't be able to get the engine low enough to fit under the bonnet. You will also have to deal with the huge bellhousing on the firewall side as well.

Could be Scott.
Tom, I'm not sure I buy the numbers you're using. Seems to me that the Ford guys who have been putting the 302 in Mustangs for ages are sort of hesitant to go over 5-600 horsepower because of the risk of splitting the block down the middle. At least that's what I've heard, and not that most of us would even want that kind of power. So maybe you'd like to tell us what your're doing different to make it live at 1000 hp?

Jim

hello 500 and 600 hp are not difficult with a stroked small block Ford there are only three blocks I know of that can take it the dart sportsman block is indestructible it's also $2800 the new Rouch boss block not sure what that costs but I know it's not cheap the other block is the 1969 boss 302 4 bolt main ford block that is what I just purchased the block in my car now is running over 500 hp and I have sprayed it 300 not for long periods of time for I know it will split the block that is why i am upgrading if for no other reason than to have peace of mind my new motor with a few slight changes mostly in the camshaft department will make huge hp on gas no limitation on RPM and it will take all the nitrous I can spray down its throat

Weak link in my new motor will be the head gaskets once you get into the seven or 800 hp range with the Windsor block regardless of size you need to start thinking about o ringing the cylinder heads all my friends tell me that as long as you watch the timing don't let it detonate you'll be just fine they say the guys blowing head gaskets are either adding too much boost leaning the nitrous off too far or adding too much timing or all of the above speed is an addiction the more you get the more you want

Anyway you look at it I could not pass up buying that boss block the guy that I bought it from builds 30 or 40 Ford race engines each year he knows what it's worth he sold it to me because he likes my car he thinks it's very cool he calls the British go cart personally I think he has the British car bug he's looking at this winner either buying a Heatley 3000 or an AC cobra kit car he told me he has the perfect motor for it it's a 351 base block from dart that he is stroking to 427 he's hoping for 775 hp on pump gas he says it would look good in a Heatley 3000 he thinks it would look small if he does the AC cobra Yep I think he's got the bug

hello Jim the question you ask is a very good one no one really knows what any block will take until you break it and then it's hard to tell which part broke first another question is what is spinning inside the block are they good lightweight forged rods are the I BEAM H BEAM are they the correct Bobwait for the crank are the Pistons lightweight was the balancing done correctly and then the best question of all or was it just put together by idiot

This might sound crazy but the bottom end in the block I'm running now is perfect the block itself is a late-model roller block thought to be the weakest of all the blocks if I can't find all the parts at the right price to build my boss block I'm going to put my new cam and lifters in the old block with the correct valve Springs and find out for myself what the Ford late-model roller block can handle it will explode it would be an interesting experiment to find out just how much it takes to make it blow it's possible I'll find out in the spring it's no big deal I have another block ready to go if you talk to old-timers they will tell you that castings by nature some are good ones and some are not the topic here is still LS motor versus 302 I would much rather have an LS motor they are probably three times stronger that is the most important thing in my book except for I don't think I could afford to build a monster LS motor I can afford to build a monster 302 + the fact I just don't like Chevys I grew up a Mopar guy this Ford Motor is quite a stretch for me
Joe Paisano a great engine builder told me once that tuning a motor is like making love to a woman you have to learn to massage them just right until they respond to your touch I must say this little 347 is the most responsive motor I've ever seen that little girl runs

Tom, You are right about the Boss 302 being the strongest factory block. All the earlier 289-302 blocks are stronger than the later 5.0 that they lightened up significantly. The Mexican 302 found in late 70's,early 80's trucks and vans is sought after because of thicker deck, heavier main caps, high nickel content and thicker lifter valley. A lot like the Boss block but 2 bolt mains. The splitting of the block only happened in the later 5.0's at over 700HP. Here is a picture of the Mexican block:

Twenty five years ago, the Cleveland 302 was almost impossible to find parts for, and outrageously expensive. Maybe they are better now.

hey Larry that's interesting information I have two early 302 blocks the boss block and another 69 Mustang 2 bolt block the 2 bolt block was cast in November 1968 it was cast in the Cleveland factory when they were changing over to the 302 versus the 289 they had the Cleveland plant cast the blocks from mid-1967 to early 1968 a little heavier with longer piston skirts I've been told some of the 1967 289s will say 302 in the lifter Valley that friend of mine that builds Ford motors told me the Cleveland plant uses a much higher nickel content in the blocks he told me he didn't know about maximum horsepower but he said the Cleveland cast 302 2 bolt main block will spin eight and 9000 RPMs without a problem if the guy wasn't such a good friend doing me a favor I would sell my factory boss block build the two bolt main block with a good forged gurgle and have money left over I also really do want to find out exactly how much the late roller block can handle horsepower on gas nitrous and rpm's even if I blow it all apart I still won't know for sure which of the three killed it my last trip to the drag strip this year was a total bust it was only 38° I couldn't get enough fuel into it my Holly blue pump was at its maximum it leaned the car off real bad on a NOS 150 shot detonated it burnt tips off the plugs and did not hurt the motor one bit I am needless to say very curious as to what that 1994 block can take it is four years old it does not oh me anything

hey Jim I think you're right on the money with the 700 horse on the early block to bolt main with the gurdle that seems to be the opinion of most of the ford guys I have never seen that truck block I might have to take a walk through the junkyard on that one do you know if it was all the Ford truck blocks through those years or just some of them

Here's an interesting trick I learned at the drag strip this year some of the guys worried about protecting their investment in the bottom end of the motor they simply run cheap head gaskets so if the motor overrevs or detonates Or leans off on nitrous it blows the head gasket instead of breaking the bottom end I talked to quite a few people that seem to think that's the way to go I must admit it's a pretty good idea for low-budget weekend racing I'm just not done thinking about that one yet

> Twenty five years ago, the Cleveland 302 was almost impossible to find parts
> for, and outrageously expensive. Maybe they are better now.

Do you mean the Boss 302 or perhaps the 351C? The 302 Cleveland was an Australian
market only engine. It was a 351C block with shorter 3" stroke crank, longer rods
and closed chamber 2 barrel heads (Boss 302/351 style combustion chambers but the
smaller 351C-2V ports and valves).

Dan Jones

Quote:

Here's an interesting trick I learned at the drag strip this year some of the guys worried about protecting their investment in the bottom end of the motor they simply run cheap head gaskets...

And if you're not sure that your head gaskets are cheap enough, you can use "all thread" from Lowe's instead of ARP head studs.

the two bolt block that I have looks like any other 302 Windsor block except it was not cast in the Windsor plant Ford cast them in the Cleveland plant for short period of time ford guys say that block is much stronger just because of the high nickel content my neighbor who was a Corvette guy claim some of the small block Chevy motors were also higher nickel content for a couple of years I am no scientist I have no idea what nickel content has to do with the strength of the blocks casting

And yes Curtis lowes threaded rod studs that was about my feeling when the first Mustang guy told me he runs cheap head gaskets like a fuse my feeling is if you're going to break it break it good then you get to build a whole new one one thing I know for sure nitrous drag racers if you give them 15 minutes most of them have enough jets in their toolbox to rip the cylinder heads off almost anything and then you enter in wagering . Peer pressure and male ego and you get something that drag racers today call grudge match racing it certainly is entertaining more than 50% of the Fox body Mustang racers at the track by my house are running Ford small blocks with either eight or 16 direct injection nozzles running what they mildly call to stage set up eight nozzles alone in the intake runner is more than capable of spraying 800 hp I feel like a little kid out there with my little nitrous express perimeter plate that only sprays 500 total the one young man I got to know at the drag strip calls himself the jack town Hustler he runs 392 small block does not tell anyone how hard he sprays it but I know from pitting next to him he's dropping over 3 1/2 pounds of nitrous in a eighth mile my car with 150 shot drops three quarters of a pound in a eight back to the topic 302 versus LS those LS motor guys spray more than anybody and they don't worry about breaking anything at least not the bottom end