Engine and Transmission Tech

Another one to consider: 11:1 compression 5.0L Rover with ported Buick 300 heads, Huffaker low rise single plane intake manifold, 750 CFM carb flow:



The lower (red) HP line is a Schneider 284-F solid flat tappet cam of specs:

284/284 degrees advertised duration
240/240 degrees @ 0.050"
0.512"/0.512" lift with 1.6:1/1.5:1 rocker ratios (less 0.012" lash)
110 LSA (108 degrees intake centerline)
64 degrees overlap

The brown line is a custom hydraulic roller of similar overlap. The top green line is the same simulation with flow bench numbers of the same heads on a different bench. The bench I usually test on is the most conservative and we typically match or exceed the simulation HP prediction using those numbers. We'll be doing some dyno testing over the winter on this engine to establish a baseline that I can use to finalize the cam design.

Dan Jones

Dan, Have you considered testing your TA heads, without porting ? Cheers, rovrerman



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/05/2013 07:21PM by roverman.

Rik,

Thanks for sharing your setup.
Was speaking with D&D yesterday and they feel the later HRC 2479 heads flow better than most and that the flow bench shows its easy to damage this flow. For an all out race motor sure port and polish the heck out of it, but for the street he thought I may be better off port matching the manifolds but leaving the valves and throats etc stock. Apparently with this level of head work, 50232 cam, 4.6L with 4.0 pistons, Edlbrock intake, 500 cfm and tri-y headers made 338hp.
Needles to say I am very confused now. Anyone have a copy of Des Hammill's Rover V8 book? It's not available now but apparently shows what needs to be opened to get the most flow for the least amount of porting. Amazon shows a preview that shows part if it but......

I do not want a race motor, just a tractable 275-300 HP that revs and idles!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/05/2013 09:23PM by mstemp.

Mlke, Here is a pic of a Rover head cutaway. And idealized porting with bulleted guide. Clean up the bowl under the seat,the valve guide boss, the hump on the floor by the short turn and gasket match. I'm a believer in the larger valves and unshrouding the chamber also. I use a large tip marker for intake gasket and head gasket. Just port to the line, not all the way to the gasket.





Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/05/2013 11:02PM by mgb260.

Mike,

The heads on my 4.6 are ported HRC 2479 heads with standard size valves and waisted valve stems.
Over the years I used several cams and shared dyno info with close friends whom are running the same engine configuration on the same car and we had following dyno results :
Piper 285, LSA 104, 276/276 advertised, 277 bhp with JWR Offenhauser dual port manifold, Holley carb
Crane/Kent H218, LSA 112, 278/284 advertised, 286 bhp with Edelbrock performer, Edelbrock carb
Crane/Kent H224, LSA 111, 284/304 advertised, 292 bhp with JWR Offenhauser dual port manifold, Holley carb
We also used a Crane/Real Steel 234, LSA 112, 298/308 on a EFI manfold and idle was still acceptable but a bit lumpy, nice sound though....
None of these engines were race engines and had a normal operating range of 800-5750 rpm.
If heads would be maximum ported with big valves the bhp outcome would significantly improve.
Therefore I think the Cowler 50233 would give you the power you are looking for and still will idling at 800 rpm.

Jukka,
How did you set up the push rods on your Merlin heads ?
Real Steel advises not to use the adjustable push rods but JE says it is not problem.
We measure different lenghts for inlet and exhaust when lifter is off the the cam.

Dan,

What is the duration of the roller cam at 0.050" for the 5.0 engine/Buick 300 heads?
Seems the roller is not keepting up with the solid or is significantly duration shorter.


Rik

Rik,

Great information again, thanks! Your Stage 3 heads only used stock valves and seats? How much of the area behind the valves did you port?
Still waiting to hear back from Crower about making a 50232 or 50233 with 114 LSA.


Jim N,

Thanks for the photos. My book on Rover V8 from David Hardcastle shows post SD1 heads to have a different track than your photos show. Need to pull my heads to see what is actually there for restrictions etc.

Mike

Mike, I think those are earlier Land Rover heads, just give an idea. If you stay with the stock valve size do a 30 degree back cut on intake valve only. You always smooth the transition below the valve seat and taper the valve guide boss. You will need to cut the upper valve guides down for Viton seals and get better valve springs for that cam. I don't know Rover specs but, 300 Buick were 60lbs closed and about 120lb at .400. I like the Alex's Parts beehive springs for Vortex chevy, 105lbs closed and 260lb at .550. The retainers are cut down for more clearance and are smaller and lighter. They have a hardened shim kit also for setting the installed height at 1.75. My guess is you will give up about 30HP with the smaller stock valves.

I have pushrod length checkers, similar to these [www.summitracing.com]

I bought a set of Comp Cams pushrods, 3/8" thick I believe based on the dimensions measured. I also use lash caps and have got quite a nice geometry with this setup.

I also swapped the valve springs to Comp Cams beehives and matching caps.

Check the intake vs. Exhaust seats, appears that they are machined at different height, resulting in different valve tip location and thus different length in pushrods. Re. The adjustable pushrods, I dont like the idea of extra "loose" parts compared to solid one. I think I have a set of new adjustables in case you want to use them.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/07/2013 03:36AM by minorv8.

Jukka, The pushrod length checker is always a good idea, especially if the block is decked, heads milled, and longer valves are used. You are probably right on different lengths with stock valves in 4.0 and 4.6. Buick 300 were the same length. Why didn't you go with hollow 5/16 pushrods and Chevy lifters? Lighter and more resistant to bending than solids. More even metering of oil to rockers. Simple to plug oil holes in heads. If you have to shim the rocker stands just use shim with no oil hole.

Jim, with solid I meant one piece vs. Adjustable. Mine are Magnum series for SBC. I was wrong, they are 7,900" and CC number is 7963. The lifters are also SBC by Crane so I could have used Chevy style oliling. The Merlin heads I have are not exactly blueprinted, there was some variation in valve heights. My block and heads have ben skimmed, add ht Merlins into equation and you definitely need to check everything.

> Thanks Dan! Is your custom cam straight up? What LSA?

This one is +4 degrees advanced. 110 degrees LSA. The ideal LSA is a
generally function of intake valve diameter (relative to displacement).
Smaller diameter intake valves on a Rover 4.6L would make better power
with a narrower LSA.

> Dan, Have you considered testing your TA heads, without porting ?

That would be the plan. Baseline the heads as delivered then see what
they do with porting.

> but for the street he thought I may be better off port matching the manifolds
> but leaving the valves and throats etc stock.

Rover heads are woefully under-sized. The minimum cross-sectional area of the
port, located just under valve seat is the major restriction. I'd at least bowl
port (blending the area just under the seats) the heads. That is inexpensive
and yields a meaningful improvement.

> Apparently with this level of head work, 50232 cam, 4.6L with 4.0 pistons,
> Edlbrock intake, 500 cfm and tri-y headers made 338hp.

That seems very optimistic to me.

> What is the duration of the roller cam at 0.050" for the 5.0 engine/Buick 300 heads?
> Seems the roller is not keepting up with the solid or is significantly duration shorter.

Are you looking at the red and brown lines? They are very close to each other with
the hydraulic roller being slightly better. This was a first cut at a hydraulic roller
and the specs were:

286/286 degrees seat duration
232/232 degrees @ 0.050"
0.560"/0.500" lift
110 LSA

Lift is artificially high in my first round of custom cam design. Subsequently, it is reduced
to see if how it affects the power output. Also, this is a single pattern cam that I designed
to compare to a Schneider 284-F solid flat tappet that I happened to have on hand. The Schneider
284-F is a single pattern cam and I wanted to keep the comparison on an equivalent basis. For
shorter durations, a flat tappet cam can make more power than a roller due to better initial
acceleration. A roller has better velocity and will make better power as duration is increased.
Vizard has done some testing which indicates the cross-over is around 270 to 278 degrees of
off-the-seat duration.

Dan Jones

Jukka,
Thanks will measure as well the rod length with the adjustable pushrod.

Dan,
Seeing the RV8 5.0 green dyno line you would get amazing BHP ( about 370+) numbers with the Schneider 284-F or the proposed HR cam when the Wildcat heads or TA heads would be used on this setup.
Seems Schneider is no longer producing this cam, otherwise would be an interesting choice for my next project.

Rik

> Seeing the RV8 5.0 green dyno line you would get amazing BHP (about 370+) numbers with the Schneider 284-F or
> the proposed HR cam when the Wildcat heads or TA heads would be used on this setup.

Yes. I should have some dyno data available in a month or two that will allow me to calibrate the Dynomation
simulation prediction. Over the weekend, I dropped off a Rover 5.0L (cross-bolted Rover block, 3.5" stroke
crank, 12:1 compression, solid lifter, modified Rover cylinder heads, Extrude Honed Edelbrock Performer Rover
intake manifold) at the dyno, along with my ported Buick 300 heads, a Huffaker single plane intake, a couple
of sets of headers and a few other bits. Plan is to test engine then swap on the Buick heads and Huffaker
intake and re-test. I'll use that data to tweak the simulation and do the final cam designs for several
engines. In the meantime, I need to get my TA Rover heads out for porting. We'll also have a stroked Olds
215 (Buick 300 crank and heads) on the dyno over the winter.

> Seems Schneider is no longer producing this cam, otherwise would be an interesting choice for my next project.

It appears that it was a custom order cam. It came with a bunch of parts I purchased a while back.
I see on the small block Buick cams section of the Schneider website that "Schneider has roller cams
available on request, call for details."

Dan Jones

Rik and clan, perhaps Schneider is no longer producing, as he is in an "exclusve" arrangement with TA Performance ? Perhaps TA can/will sell you this cam ? Cheers, roverman.

Dan, do you have any data how much the stock TA heads flow ?

Julkka

> Dan, do you have any data how much the stock TA heads flow ?

No I don't. I ordered my heads bare but have not had them ported or on
the flow bench yet. TA claims they flow approximately 225 CFM intake and
140 exhaust out-of-the box for the assembled heads but it's not clear if that
includes any finish work like bowl blending. The guy at TA Performance said
their Level II porting ($800 in hand labor, no CNC at this time) flowed 250/180
CFM with 1.94"/1.6" SBC valves but he didn't have the lift reference. TA claims
with additional porting they will go 270 CFM intake and 190 CFM exhaust.

I've verified a set of 1.94"/1.6" diameter valves from a set of AFR 165cc SBF
heads fit in the combustion chamber. AFR 165cc heads are some of the best
small block Ford smaller port (still larger than Rover) heads. With a 1.9"/1.6"
diamater valves, at 0.500" lift, the AFRs flow in the neighborhood of 238 CFM
on the intake side and 182 CFM on the exhaust.

I'll be pleasantly surprised if they will out flow a set of AFR's.

Dan Jones

I've long been curious just how good these TA heads really are. From all accounts the V6 heads are exceptional. I really look forward to hearing what your testing shows.

Jim

IMHO, The Ford head has the advantage of a 4" + bore ? 2.02" intake fits the standard valve centerlines, of a TA head. As to how well it works with a 3.7" bore ? I would like to run a 3.9" bore,(Ford tractor sleeve), and perhaps an LS piston. Onward, roverman.