Engine and Transmission Tech

tips, technology, tools and techniques related to vehicle driveline components

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joe_padavano
Joseph Padavano
Northern Virginia
(133 posts)

Registered:
02/15/2010 03:49PM

Main British Car:
1962 F-85 Deluxe wagon 215 Olds

Re: Rover 4.6L EFI - to GEM or Thor
Posted by: joe_padavano
Date: January 14, 2014 06:15PM

"What about modifying the 4BBl manifold to take the top hat directly.
Then mount your throttle body in front of the top hat.
It would make for a super low profile intake."

Or, just buy one of these:

[www.edelbrock.com]

38483.jpg


GT8MX
Bill Wessale
Houston
(43 posts)

Registered:
01/10/2014 11:28AM

Main British Car:
1968 Spitfire GT6 BOP 215 / Rover of some lineage

Re: Rover 4.6L EFI - to GEM or Thor
Posted by: GT8MX
Date: January 14, 2014 06:35PM

Quote:
Am I mistaken in thinking Glen's article deals with cutting down the cover and base plate of the plenum?
You are not mistaken. That is correct.
Quote:
Here they are (Thor and GEMS manifolds) , side by side: (with Thor on the left)
Thanks. If I were to extend air horns toward the front (like a header in reverse) to a plenum box i make, which is in turn, fed air from the front of the radiator, the GEMS lower manifold would look better, I think.
Quote:
you haven't described where you want your torque curve to peak
I would like it to be in the 3500 area for street use, not race.
Quote:
you might just as well start with a Buick two barrel manifold
Quote:
You can gas weld the intake with aluminum rod similar to brazing.
A great idea made easier. I can't TIG, but I can braze (and epoxy). I'll look on eBay.
Quote:
optimal runner volume should be kept close to cylinder displacement,
A good rule of thumb to remember. Thanks.
Quote:
Here is a picture of the fresh air intake instead of conventional air cleaner
Yes. That's what I was picturing for mounting ontop of the throttle body and 4-BBL manifold.
Quote:
What about modifying the 4BBl manifold to take the top hat directly.
Then mount your throttle body in front of the top hat.
That's a great idea! That idea is one of those,"why hadn't I thought of that?" Thanks.


GT8MX
Bill Wessale
Houston
(43 posts)

Registered:
01/10/2014 11:28AM

Main British Car:
1968 Spitfire GT6 BOP 215 / Rover of some lineage

Re: Rover 4.6L EFI - to GEM or Thor
Posted by: GT8MX
Date: January 14, 2014 06:50PM

A follow-on question that perhaps should be a new thread....

In using EFI, am I heading down a path where I will need catalytic converters? If so, that will be a problem, because it would be hard to find a space to fit them except behind the axle, which might be full of muffler. I don't believe I need catalytic coverters to pass safety inpsection because the car is a 1968 Spitfire so there are no emission limits that have to be met.

Relevant questions:

1 - Can Megasquirt work with closed loop O2, but no catalytic converters?
2 - Can GEMS work with no catalytic converters?
3 - Can I put the catalytic converters behind the rear axle, with the downstream O2 sensors still mounted behind the converters? Is that too much of a lag between the O2 sensors upstream of the converters and the O2 sensors downstream which would cause Megasquirt / GEMS to "hunt"? Or would the upstream O2 sensors need to be mounted behind the rear axle just ahead of the converter?

Thx,

Bill


GT8MX
Bill Wessale
Houston
(43 posts)

Registered:
01/10/2014 11:28AM

Main British Car:
1968 Spitfire GT6 BOP 215 / Rover of some lineage

Re: Rover 4.6L EFI - to GEM or Thor
Posted by: GT8MX
Date: January 14, 2014 06:54PM

Quote:
Or, just buy one of these: (Edelbrock intake elbow)
Cool!


Moderator
Curtis Jacobson
Portland Oregon
(4456 posts)

Registered:
10/12/2007 02:16AM

Main British Car:
71 MGBGT, Buick 215

authors avatar
Re: Rover 4.6L EFI - to GEM or Thor
Posted by: Moderator
Date: January 14, 2014 08:17PM

I think you're going to want to become friendly with one of Houston's many welding shops. Nearly every idea floated in this thread involves welding. (Fuel injector bosses!) Some of these joints are going to be very visible too. IMHO, TIG is the way to go.

The welder I used to know in Greensboro was great. I couldn't afford his daytime rates, but he was happy to work on stuff after 9pm while drinking beer and talking about Harley Davidsons with his buddies. His late night rates were affordable.

Megasquirt doesn't know or care about catalytic converters.

A "wanted" ad in our classified section might help you find a sweetheart deal on a 2bbl Buick manifold.


DiDueColpi
Fred Key
West coast - Canada
(1259 posts)

Registered:
05/14/2010 03:06AM

Main British Car:
What if the Hokey Pokey really is what it's all about?

authors avatar
Re: Rover 4.6L EFI - to GEM or Thor
Posted by: DiDueColpi
Date: January 14, 2014 09:59PM

Great find on that elbow Joseph. I especially like the low profile box type.
Bill,
Using the GEMS injection is going to be problematic. The ECU is coded to the body computer of the vehicle that it came from.
It won't run at all without a signal from the BCM.
It keeps a vehicle that breaks down every 15ft from being stolen and driven 20ft.
The ECU can be unlocked and reprogrammed to work, but it's very expensive.
Factory fuel injection systems are very inflexible and resistant to changes out of necessity
So an aftermarket tuneable system makes more sense.
Megasquirt and SDS are two injection systems that I use a lot.
Both are relatively inexpensive and easy to use once you get over the initial learning curve.
You can use the GEMS manifold or any other for that matter with either system.
Hope that helps.
Cheers
Fred


GT8MX
Bill Wessale
Houston
(43 posts)

Registered:
01/10/2014 11:28AM

Main British Car:
1968 Spitfire GT6 BOP 215 / Rover of some lineage

Re: Rover 4.6L EFI - to GEM or Thor
Posted by: GT8MX
Date: January 15, 2014 10:45AM

Quote:
Megasquirt doesn't know or care about catalytic converters.
Outstanding. The GEMS system uses 4 O2 sesnsors - 2 upstream of the catalytic converters and 2 downstream of them. Another reason to use Megasquirt (at least not the factory EFI controller).
Quote:
Using the GEMS injection is going to be problematic. The ECU is coded to the body computer of the vehicle that it came from.
Quote:
Megasquirt and SDS are two injection systems that I use a lot.
That seals it...Regardless of the induction system I end up using, I will use some aftermarket tuneable controller. I'm going to start researching Megasquirt and SDS.
Thank you all for your guidance! This has been terrific.

Bill



mgb260
Jim Nichols
Sequim,WA
(2032 posts)

Registered:
02/29/2008 08:29PM

Main British Car:
1973 MGB roadster 260 Ford V8

Re: Rover 4.6L EFI - to GEM or Thor
Posted by: mgb260
Date: January 15, 2014 06:36PM

I would use a angle iron jig for drilling holes for bungs and chamfer top of holes. Tight slip fit and precut angle on bottom of bung. Then use this filler rod that anyone can do with a Mapp torch. A lot of guys use JB weld or Lab metal Epoxy. It is most important to have the fuel rail and intake holes identical. There are hold downs on the fuel rail to intake. The newer LS3/LS7 injectors are rated at 40lb and are much shorter and use the same o rings.

[www.aluminumrepair.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/15/2014 06:37PM by mgb260.


GT8MX
Bill Wessale
Houston
(43 posts)

Registered:
01/10/2014 11:28AM

Main British Car:
1968 Spitfire GT6 BOP 215 / Rover of some lineage

Re: Rover 4.6L EFI - to GEM or Thor
Posted by: GT8MX
Date: January 17, 2014 11:17AM

Quote:
use this filler rod that anyone can do with a Mapp torch - www.aluminumrepair.com

I was not aware of this. Thanks. Their site says they also have brazing rods for cast iron. I 've tossed out cast iron pieces beause I don't / can't weld cast iron and it wasn't worth it to pay somebody else.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/18/2014 09:19AM by GT8MX.


BlownMGB-V8
Jim Blackwood
9406 Gunpowder Rd., Florence, KY 41042
(5903 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 12:59PM

Main British Car:
1971 MGB Blown,Injected,Intercooled Buick 340/AA80E/JagIRS

authors avatar
Re: Rover 4.6L EFI - to GEM or Thor
Posted by: BlownMGB-V8
Date: January 17, 2014 03:01PM

You can weld cast iron pretty easily with nickel rod. It's kinda expensive but works well.
The fluxless aluminum brazing rod will discolor and darken so your repair will show up, and it isn't as strong as a TIG repair.

Jim


75sixer
Rick Patton

(2 posts)

Registered:
02/23/2014 03:36PM

Main British Car:


Re: Rover 4.6L EFI - to GEM or Thor
Posted by: 75sixer
Date: February 25, 2014 01:31AM

Years ago I was on this forum but mostly lurked without posting but have recently returned and now may have something of interest. My project is installing a Rover 4.0 into a TVR 2500M. The fit is extremely tight so there's been a fair amout of fabrication including building a set of headers that go up and forward. Hood clearance has been very tight so I've ended up fitting a Thor manifold but scrapped the throttle assembly and used a pair of Volvo throttle bodies. Both bodies sit close to tehvalve covers on adapter blocks that change the Volvo shape into the rectangular shape of the plenum. The car is a long way from being on the road but it does run although needs tuning. Engine management is Megasquirt II using the original wasted spark coil packs. If anyone has a Megasquirt msq file for a Rover 4.0 to share I would appreciate it very much. Now the only thing too tall is the dip stick and that's easy.

Appreciate all the creative projects in this forum!

volvoized1.jpg


DiDueColpi
Fred Key
West coast - Canada
(1259 posts)

Registered:
05/14/2010 03:06AM

Main British Car:
What if the Hokey Pokey really is what it's all about?

authors avatar
Re: Rover 4.6L EFI - to GEM or Thor
Posted by: DiDueColpi
Date: February 25, 2014 03:10AM

That makes for a pretty sweet looking low profile intake Rick.
I'm a Volvo guy so using the white block throttle bodies makes me happy!
And the WOW (weird or what) factor when you open the hood is worth it alone.
Welcome back. Kinda looks like you belong here.

All hail the mighty "B" cam.
Fred


Moderator
Curtis Jacobson
Portland Oregon
(4456 posts)

Registered:
10/12/2007 02:16AM

Main British Car:
71 MGBGT, Buick 215

authors avatar
Re: Rover 4.6L EFI - to GEM or Thor
Posted by: Moderator
Date: February 25, 2014 09:13AM

That's so very cool!


BlownMGB-V8
Jim Blackwood
9406 Gunpowder Rd., Florence, KY 41042
(5903 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 12:59PM

Main British Car:
1971 MGB Blown,Injected,Intercooled Buick 340/AA80E/JagIRS

authors avatar
Re: Rover 4.6L EFI - to GEM or Thor
Posted by: BlownMGB-V8
Date: February 25, 2014 05:12PM

I like it. Very..... different.

Jim


75sixer
Rick Patton

(2 posts)

Registered:
02/23/2014 03:36PM

Main British Car:


Re: Rover 4.6L EFI - to GEM or Thor
Posted by: 75sixer
Date: February 25, 2014 09:32PM

Thanks. Still very much a work in progress and looking forward to more moderate temperatures to get back on it. I'm in Maine and this coming week is forecast for highs about 20 degrees.

This is a picture of what the engine bay looks like now. Have built a thermostat housing that mounts to the front of the intake and connects to an aluminum tube to the radiator. Used a small framed Denso 105A alternator and an spring loaded idler to tension the belt. The headers are something I cobbled up from stainless tubing connecting to 2.25" twin stainless pipes. She's quite loud with the crack of a Nascar machine and that needs to be addressed. Engine managemnet is Megasquirt reading a toothed wheel on the balancer for ignition timing. Transmission is a T5. Lots of sorting, cleaning, and rerarranging yet to be done.
engine.Oct.2013.jpg



Truk_Snave
kurt evans

(14 posts)

Registered:
12/29/2013 10:33PM

Main British Car:


Re: Rover 4.6L EFI - to GEM or Thor
Posted by: Truk_Snave
Date: March 16, 2014 12:51AM

Gems system does not talk to a becm
Thor on the other hand is another matter :-)


DiDueColpi
Fred Key
West coast - Canada
(1259 posts)

Registered:
05/14/2010 03:06AM

Main British Car:
What if the Hokey Pokey really is what it's all about?

authors avatar
Re: Rover 4.6L EFI - to GEM or Thor
Posted by: DiDueColpi
Date: March 17, 2014 12:38PM

I'm afraid it does Kurt.
The ECM recieves a digital code from the BECM to enable the injectors.
This happens over pin 25 at the ECM.
Without this code the ECM will not power up.
It can be defeated by reprogramming. But usually the cost doesn't make sense. Unless you are keeping it in the Land Rover.
Cheers
Fred


Truk_Snave
kurt evans

(14 posts)

Registered:
12/29/2013 10:33PM

Main British Car:


Re: Rover 4.6L EFI - to GEM or Thor
Posted by: Truk_Snave
Date: March 17, 2014 01:54PM

Fred
in a discover series 1 there is no becm
there is however a multi funtion unit that does stuff like turn signals etc

I looked and pin 25 at connection C1007 is for coil #1


DiDueColpi
Fred Key
West coast - Canada
(1259 posts)

Registered:
05/14/2010 03:06AM

Main British Car:
What if the Hokey Pokey really is what it's all about?

authors avatar
Re: Rover 4.6L EFI - to GEM or Thor
Posted by: DiDueColpi
Date: March 17, 2014 04:18PM

You're right Kurt,
The Disco 1 doesn't use a BECM.
The early ones used the CUX14 injection without any security features.
The Disco 1's that used GEMS started in 1996 and had a security code fed to them from the theft alarm unit.
Its pin 26 ( I know, I said 25. didn't have my glasses on straight I guess) @ C1017
It's the same issue as the Range Rover.
No coded signal, no start.


Truk_Snave
kurt evans

(14 posts)

Registered:
12/29/2013 10:33PM

Main British Car:


Re: Rover 4.6L EFI - to GEM or Thor
Posted by: Truk_Snave
Date: March 17, 2014 05:17PM

right a P38 does have a becm
now if you look at the schem fro a disco you will notice there is a provision for {"with out anti theft } do this you will need to ground out pine #26 at c1017 this will work and has been working for the past 12 years since i first did it :-) please refer to diag A1 PAGE 9

if I follow the diag not having this ground path the starter relay will not work ..
from the ETM

"On manual transmission vehicles, a ground path is provided directly to the Starter Solenoid Relay’s (K137) 86 terminal. On automatic transmission vehicles, a ground path is provided to the Starter Solenoid Relay’s (K137) 86 terminal via the Park/Neutral Position Switch (X16"
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