Engine and Transmission Tech

A very odd problem to be sure. Did you pull a valve cover to be sure oil is getting to the top end? (opposite side preferred)

Jim

Hi Guys
I have attached some pictures of the oil pump extension plate from the original 215 cover I removed and replaced a month or so ago. The Metric pump cover bolts over this with longer fasteners. A remote filter assembly screws on to this, with hoses to the filter and back.
I have not pulled a valve cover, but can tomorrow after work. How much oil should I see in a Rover engine?

Jeff, Thanks for the pics. Can you show the face of the metric cover with gasket over it. Definitely just a spacer with longer gears. Maybe you have too tight bearing clearance? Are you oiling through the rocker shaft or through the pushrods? We will figure this out. It is unusual, as the Buick system is more often low oil pressure.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/13/2014 02:33PM by mgb260.

Jeffrey man,
I'd be more worried about blood pressure than oil pressure if I were you.
The lovely Lynne would have my "gentleman's vegetables" in a vice if I had car parts on the dining room table.
But from what is seen so far nothing seems amiss.
The little nubules of silicone are a concern though. Just a small amount of that floating around in your oil system can wreak havoc
An anaerobic sealant such as Locktite 518 for example, would be a much better choice.
Apply it in a thin layer with a brush or small roller.
Sealant trapped between the mating surfaces will be starved of air and harden.
Any excess product will be squeezed out just like normal, but it won't harden and will be carried away harmlessly.
With any luck, pictures of your cover will reveal the problem.

Cheers
Fred

For reference here's a pic of mine on my '63 215

Jeff, I don't think those long gears are helping you any but it also does not sound to me like they are the problem. What concerns me most is that you say the oil pressure goes away when it warms up? Dropping from very high pressure to very low pressure indicates a very serious problem somewhere and off hand I just can't think of anything that would cause that.

What you are looking for when you pull the valve cover(s) is the absence of oil. Better still to see what is going on with the engine running but that is messy, though an old valve cover with the top cut away can be a big help. Then you just look for a reasonable amount of lubricant getting to all of the moving parts without a flood piling oil up in the top end, which could conceivably starve the pickup.

OK here is a possible working theory. I doubt it is the right one but may be a starting point. IF your bearing clearances are tight but you have a greatly excessive flow of oil to the top end, it MAY be possible with that high volume pump to over pressurize the system and still starve the sump. This would seem to require drainback issues as well but could be possible. If that is what's happening you either need to replace worn or out of spec components in the top end or put a restriction in the supply line, which though not a common mod is sometimes seen on race engines.

Look, I know you are probably attached to the HV pump kit and want to keep it. But at least two decades ago it was recognized by the Buick community as a VBI (very bad idea) and at best a band-aid for sloppy bearings. First thing I'd do is get rid of it, go back to the standard gears, use the booster plate and do as many of the recommended oiling mods as is reasonably feasible. Provided of course that your bearing clearances are closer than .002". At least that would get you back to a known starting point.

Jim

Hi Team High Pressure
Thanks for the continued advice! I pulled the valve cover from the drivers side when I got home tonight. Not much oil seen, so I elected to start the motor. That produced almost no oil! A small amount, maybe a thimbleful, pooled in the ends of the head. So I tried the other side. This had slightly better results, but it was still barely noticeable. The car could have been driven all day without the cover in place and not a drop of oil would have spilled out. I decided to pull the rocker arm and attempt to clean it again. I pulled both end arms and made sure all oiling passageways were clean, and I did the same with the center ones. They all had a bit of crud in them, but none were blocked. I snaked the soft wire down the oil holes on the head and did not hit any noticeable blockages. After reassemble I started the motor again. No increase in oil and still high pressure. So I am assuming that the oil system is blocked, or partial blocked, somewhere. I am wondering if I used to much gasket compound during initial assemble, and some broke off after I had ran the motor for awhile.
Excluding complete disassemble, is there a way to flush or clean out the oiling system? If I could leave the block in the MG I would be happy to strip it down as far as I could take it,

Jeff, Do the holes in the head line up with the holes in the rocker stands? Another thought, could the cam bearing holes not be lined up? Front cam bearing has 2 holes at 9 and 3 O'clock. There is a grooved front bearing from T/A. Or you can grind a slot from 9 down to 7 and 3 up to 1. This improves oiling and longevity of the front cam bearing. All the other ones aren't as critical as to position, but are, to the distribution through out the engine. The holes still have to line up. I wonder if there is an oiling diagram available? Also, does your Metric cover and gasket look like Carl's picture. Ok, I found a oil diagram for the Buick 430 V8,probably pretty similar. Looks like the front cam bearing feeds the hole to rocker oiling.




Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/13/2014 09:18PM by mgb260.

Guys
Here are a couple of pictures of the Metric pump cover that mates to the 215 front timing cover. This is one that I pulled from a junkyard, but the D & D one is identical, just cleaner. The hole on the side that is tapped is for the oil pressure gauge.

[www.google.com]

Jeff, That spacer has the same little rectangular hole with angled end that the booster plate has. The cover Carl shows has a small hole there connecting to the next opening. You could try that.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/14/2014 01:09PM by mgb260.

Quote:

The cover Carl shows has a small hole there connecting to the next opening. You could try that.

Before you go drilling, I need to clarify that my pic above is of the original 215 base. Not the Metric base.

Although, that factory hole does seem to be where the Kenne-Bell instruction say to drill.


Additional oil pump info:

[www.vortexbuicks-etc.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/14/2014 01:39PM by MGBV8.

Carl, That's a good page! There is one more on that site also:
[www.vortexbuicks-etc.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/14/2014 01:58PM by mgb260.

Hi Guys,
Did a bit of investigating when I got home tonight to try to determine the extent of oiling in the engine. Having such a low amount going to the rockers has gotten me nervous. I pulled the carb, intake, and the valley gasket to get a look at the tappets and cam. It appears that oil is flowing to this section of the motor. I did not notice any wear or burn marks. The entire area appeared to have had a coating of oil on it. I am wondering if it is worth it to pull the heads to check the cylinder walls. I would like to try to verify that the passageways that feed oil to the heads are clear, or could be cleared.

In one of the posts it was mentioned that liquid gasket material can cause an issue if it gets into the system. That is my worry. Oil pressure is high at start up due to a blockage. As the oil gets pumped into the top end of the engine, it has trouble returning to the sump and the pump starts to cavitate. Still not sure why the by-pass valve is not working, but could it be the location of the gauge pick up port-right in the side of the Metric cover?

Does this seem like workable scenario? Would you recommend pulling the heads to check passageways?

Thanks for the vortexbuick links-very helpful. I unfortunately do not have standard volume 215 oil pump gear. They did not come with either cover. Would the longer gears adversely affect the larger Rover 4.0 engine?

Hi Jeffrey

Suggest you remove both rocker covers, be prepared for some oil splashing, start the engine and let it idle at the 50lbs you mention. DO NOT REV the engine.

You will hopefully hear the tappets silence their clatter in 2 -3 seconds and hopefully oil will commence its flow to the top of the engine via the rocker shafts and the rocker arms in about 30 seconds

If the above is successful, change the oil filter to one approved by the local MG Club, and when you restart thereafter if the problem persists commit that bloody oil pump base to the trash can, and purchase one from a UK source. Clive Wheatley the MGV8 specialist is your man, he has a web page, a phone call will have the parts you need on your doorstep within 5 days.

Let's stop pissing about with what we THINK is the appropriate pump base plate

Good weather is just around the corner

Hi guys

Oops just realised that there is a second page of mail on this subject, my comments re oil to the rockers etc has already been established viz minimum oil reaching the top of the engine.

I have overhauled several Rover V8's and I recall removing the front cover on one engine just before installing it in the car. - I normally use silicone liquid gasket on both sides of the paper gasket, and the amount of silicone being squeezed from the joint gave me worries that I might have applied too much liquid gasket and blocked the main oil flow port between the timing cover and the block. It transpired that I did not have a problem, but three days after the installation of the timing cover the silicone on the outside of the front cover had congealed to the extent that it could have formed a ' hard silicone bung' in the oil gallery if my fears had been justified.

The oil coverage on the underside of the valley gasket and the inside surface of the block might well have been caused by the turbulence created by the piston movement creating an oil mist.

I would still change the filter and if that fails to solve the problem junk the Metric oil pump base plate.

The solution is out there - somewhere

HI JEFFREY


Attached pic is of the original factory oil pump base, I have 2 X MGB V8's. Both with these base plates, and in one instance the car is fitted with your pump spacer and longer gears. If you can relate to my pic and find yours provides the oil drillings , so much the better

A side issue I exploded two oil filters when I first started one of my engines, the first incident was considered.an isolated fault, but when the second exploded I phoned the manufacturer (Unipart on the UK) and was advised that the filters were bomb proof to 130 lbs pressure. - I replaced the Dizzie gear at the base where it mates with the camshaft, the thing was scrap. - after a total of approximately 5 minutes engine use. I was under the bonnet in both cases and unaware of the pressure reached before all he'll broke loose.

The solution in my case was to fit a tadpole valve in the same oil pump base plate. - problem solved. Both cars now have tadpole valves and adjustable oil pressure release valves fitted.

Hope you are making progress

HI JEFFREY

DO NOT THINK MY PICS SURVIVED MY COMPUTER SKILLS. ( old age does produce a few problems )


Are you aware that the rocker shafts in these engines need to be fitted to ensure the oil flow will pass through the shafts and feed the rocker arms. If you get them reversed you will experience higher than normal oil pressure. - it's difficult to explain but there should be a. 'Hack saw cut ' across one end of the shafts.
The 'cut end ' of the shaft goes to the front of the engine on the left side ( as you view the engine standing in front of the car looking down on the engine) and the cut end goes to the rear of the engine on the right side viewed from the front.

You will find some warning messages on the Web,

Sorry about my pics, cannot work out where I went wrong - they failed to attach ?

Pics probably too big.

Jim

Hi Guys,
Sorry it has taken so long to reply, many 12 hour days at work. Since my last message I have pulled the heads and really cleaned them and the rocker shafts. I re-installed the heads and tested oil flow with the rockers not attached, by just turning over the engine.
Flow looked good, so I put the whole thing back together and started it up-same issue, high pressure. My neighbor can over and looked at it with me and made a suggestion. He had me run the car up to the high oil pressure, then shut it off. I quickly removed the pressure relief valve spring, reassembled and started the engine for a few seconds. I only had about 2-3 pounds of pressure-so the bypass was working. From there it was just a matter of fitting a weaker spring, and slowly removing a coil at a time till the correct pressure was reached. Currently, I am at 45 psi at cold idle, It does raise up to about 52-53 when I raise the rpms. When the car is fully warmed up, it is at around 35 at idle. I have not experienced the drop in pressure since the weaker spring has gone in. So I am fairly positive the spring that I was instructed to use was too stiff and caused the high pressure problem. Cannot figure out why after warm up the pressure dropped so low though???

Thanks for all the tips, I am going to check my rocker shafts to make sure I did not reverse them. I have only put about 30 miles on the MG since the new springs-but they have been great ones!