Engine and Transmission Tech

Greetings.

I'm thinking about resurecting my 1970 Rover P6B with the familiar 215 engine. However, having owned a manual 2000TC, I absolutely hate the BW Type 35 slushbox that these things were saddled with - it seems to suck all the life out of the car!

I recently read an article in a back issue (volume XV, issue 1) about a fellow named Richard Norman who installed a 215 in a Lotus Elite. [www.britishv8.org]

"A Tremec 3550 5-speed (now "TKO") heavy duty, high performance transmission and a 10" clutch were used in place of the Elite's weaker original 5-speed. (The Lotus 5-speed was taken from a "Maxi", a smaller model exclusive to the European market.) The Tremec 5-speed is the same transmission that Ford used in the Mustang Cobra and also used in a few other high performance cars. The Mustang had a supercharged 281cid (4.6L) V8 with 390hp and 390lbs/ft of torque. To mate the transmission to the engine block, I used a Rover "automatic" bell housing by having a thin 3/8" aluminum plate sandwiched between the two so the internal clutch dimensions worked with the Tremec."

I did a search on Norman's name, but didn't find any posts by him.

Anyone know anything about installing this combination, such as flywheel & clutch used etc. Norman's use of the Rover autobox bell housing is especially interesting as I have several of these to play with. Anyone know if this bell housing can be made to work with other trans - such as the T5? TIA.

James



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/30/2008 08:49PM by jheis.

I don't know anything specifically about reworking the Rover automatic style bellhousing...

But did you see our classified section? I think someone just posted a for-sale ad for an original Rover 3500 5-speed!
[forum.britishv8.org]
Seems like working with that box might be your easiest option, and it would keep your car more "purely Rover" if you care.

The Tremec 3550 is a derivative of the Borg-Warner T5... You can read more about them both here:
[www.britishv8.org]

You can also read a bit of info specifically about the T5 here:
[www.britishv8.org]

Being cash strapped, I'd personally lean toward a T5 because it would almost certainly be a LOT cheaper than a brand new Tremec. By picking up a used T5 locally, you'd probably save enough money to simply buy a bellhousing. (Finding a good, used Tremec 3550 would be like finding the proverbial needle in a haystack.) One source of bellhousings is D&D Fabrications in Michigan... and they could also set you up with flywheel, pressure plate, clutch disc, etc.

After the T5, my second choice would probably be a Toyota 5-speed, which you can read a little about here:
[www.britishv8.org]

There are plenty of other possibilities. A later Rover 5-speed (LT77 or R380) could be made to work, but in the U.S. they tend to be harder to find and more expensive. (The R380 would be EXTREMELY hard to find in the U.S., but preferable.) These two are a little taller and heavier than the T5.

I agree with Curtis. The Tremec transmissions are rare and not cheap. I would definately lean towards the T-5 and get a bell housing (no adaptors), flywheel & heavy duty clutch to install from D&D. You can all kinds of different gearing in the T-5. If you want to upgrade there is always the T-56 6-Speed that has one more gear and more adapting. The easiest and cheapest is the Rover SD1 or TR8 LT-77 5 Speed. It is durable but not for any real perfromance enigne 250+ hp or a heavy car like the 3500S could prematurely wear out 2nd and possibly 3rd gear. You do have a starting base with the 3.08/.07:1 rear differential.

-Michael

Thanks Curtis & Michael

Great information! I was mainly intrigued by Norman's use of the Rover autobox bell housing.

As a fellow cheapskate, being able to use something I already own (and saving a few bucks in the process) is very appealing. I only noted the Tremec 3550 because that was what Norman used in his Lotus. Since he was able to mount the 3550 to the Rover bell housing, and the 3550 is a development of the T5, it seems like it should be possible to do the same thing with a T5.

I'm open to all options, but I'm leaning towards using a T5 (because of availability) or a Supra box (although I've read some horror stories about dealing with Dellow - not to mention the distance & shipping factors of dealing with someone in Oz). I'm thinking that I'd probably tend to stay away from the Rover manual box due to their limited availability and (relative) parts unavailability - hard enough getting stuff for these cars.

I am familiar with D$D but, having been in the parts biz in a past life, I have a hard time paying retail + prices for stuff that can be had "off-the-shelf" if you know what you're looking for. Which is why this is a great place to learn from other's experience!

I'm still in the information gathering stage, so any suggestions and recommendations are welcome and greatly appreciated.

James



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/01/2008 08:43PM by jheis.

Just to make a quick pitch on the T5's behalf: The weight difference between the two (Tremec/T5) is gigantic. Well in my opinion. T5=70lbs. Tremec=100lbs. And with the power output, I think the T5 is perfect for you application.

Hope that helps.

> I would definately lean towards the T-5 and get a bell housing (no adaptors),
> flywheel & heavy duty clutch to install from D&D.

Borg Warner T5 (GM V8 version):

There are several bellhousings that I'm aware of that will bolt a GM T5 to
a Buick/Old 215 or Rover V8. There were three different GM bellhousings
used behind the 215 (3 speed, 4 speed, and dual purpose) but only the 4
speed and dual purpose bellhousings will directly mount a T5 (or other
late model GM 4 or 5 speed tranny). I have a 4 speed bellhousing and its
pattern is as follows:

- horizontal distance between top two bolts - 8 1/4"
- horizontal distance between bottom two bolts - 9 1/8"
- vertical distance between top and bottom bolts - 4 7/8"

I also have an aftermarket TransDapt bellhousing that will mount a T5. It's
a fairly thick sand casting. The GM bellhousings appear to be die-cast. D&D
Fabrications offer a bellhousing that sounds a lot like the TransDapt piece.
I've also heard of an Offy but not seen it.

Be aware there are several versions of the T5, including models made for AMC,
Mopar, Ford, and GM. I believe the GM version is the only one that will bolt
directly to the GM 215 bellhousing or TransDapt/D&D aftermarket bellhousings.
However, D&D makes a adapter that bolts the Ford T5 to a GM 3 (or 3/4 speed)
bellhousing.

There are light duty T5's that were used behind 4 and 6 cylinder engines and
heavier duty versions used behind V8's. The GM V8 boxes should have 26 splines
on the input shaft. The light duty versions have 14. The GM V8 version was
typically installed in Camaros and Firebirds and used a bellhousing with a bolt
pattern that's rotated 20 degrees from vertical. When bolted to a bellhousing
with a vertical mount, the shifter will be laid over and the transmission mount
flange rotated 20 degrees or so from horizontal. If you use one of these,
you'll need to make some wedge adapters at the transmission mount. The truck
GM T5 (used in S-10's and the like) has a different shifter location and
register bore that won't fit the GM 215 bellhousing. Also, beware of people
trying to pass off the old light duty T-50's as T-5's. The T50 was an earlier,
lighter duty, transmission. They were found in '70's Monzas, Skyhawks,
Starfires and the like. It is no longer in production and does not have a
good durability reputation. Plus, the gear ratios are short. The T-50 has a
shift pattern of:

R 2 4
1 3 5

The T5 is a later, stronger, and much more popular transmission, with variants
being used by Ford, GM, and Chrysler. The T-5 shift pattern is:

1 3 5
2 4 R

Note that not all T5's are the same. There are weaker versions with shorter
gear ratios used with 4 cylnder engines and stronger V8 versions with taller
gear ratios. For instance, Ford 4 cylinder spec T5's may have a first gear
ratio of 4.05 and an overdrive ratio of 0.81 while a V8 spec tranny may have
a 2.95 first and 0.63 overdrive. Some V8 spec T5's are stronger than others,
with early V8 spec Ford T5's rated at 265 ft-lbs and the latest aftermarket
version rated at 330 ft-lbs.

Some of the tailshaft housings (where the shifter is located) swap between
the various T5 models. The MGBV8 guys use a Ford tail housing on GM T5's to
get the shifter to come up through the factory tranny tunnel hole. Sunbeam
Tiger guys use an AMC housing on a Ford T5 for the same reason.

Both the T5's and T50's use removable bellhousings. The Ford, GM, and
Chrysler versions of the T5 are not interchangeable (different input/output
shafts, tranny mounts locations and bellhousing bolt patterns). There's also
the T45 5 speed that replaced the T5 in the later ('96-up) V8 Ford
Mustangs. Be aware the T-5 used in '94-'95 V8 Mustangs has a longer input
shaft than earlier Ford V8 T-5s.

> The easiest and cheapest is the Rover SD1 or TR8 LT-77 5 Speed.
> It is durable but not for any real perfromance enigne 250+ hp or
> a heavy car like the 3500S could prematurely wear out 2nd and possibly
> 3rd gear.

I think Woody Cooper still runs the Rover LT77 5 Speed behind his 13:1
compression stroker Rover V8. You might want to talk to him about it.
The LT77 came standard transmission in TR8 and Rover 3500 SD1 applications
and is also shared by the TR7 so you can usually get cores cheap but
rebuilds may be expensive and you'll need a TR8 or SD1 bellhousing and
related bits (pivot arm and pin, slave cylinder, etc).

Rover gear ratios are:

1st 3.32:1
2nd 2.09:1
3rd 1.40:1
4th 1.00:1
5th 0.83:1 (also 0.79:1 on late TR7's)

One thing to be aware of when installing a used Rover transmission is that
it has an internal gear-driven oil pump. It's wise to replace the pump
drive gears. They are made of a phenolic resin that gets brittle over time.
If these fail, you can quickly ruin the tranny. Since it has a pump, you
don't want to tow the car (since the pump won't be spinning) with the rear
wheels on the ground. If the shifter is sloppy, it's probably due to the
shifter extension's eight rubber bushings (cheap and easy to fix).

Also, the box was originally filled with gear lube but cold shifting
complaints prompted the factory to switch to Type G automatic transmission
fluid. However, the transmission was not designed for ATF so there are
metals inside that may wear prematurely. The current lubricant of choice
for the LT77 is GM Synchromesh. It appears to be ATF-based and pours like
ATF but, through the miracles of modern chemistry, meets 75W90 gear oil
specs. It has the proper viscosity for low temperature operation and also
contains the proper additives for synchronizer performance and the protection
of any yellow metals in the transmission. No matter what the counter jockey
may say, this is *not* GM ATF fluid (Dexron II or III). What you want is
"GM Synchromesh Transmission Fluid", part number 1#12345349, available
from your friendly GM dealer at $7/qt. Pennzoil is supposed to be
marketing a cheaper version but I've not looked for it.

The Rover R380 is a later 5 speed manual transmission that replaced the
LT77.

Toyota W-series 5 speed:

Another transmission to consider is the rear wheel drive Toyota 5
speed as used in Celicas, Supras, and trucks. They are unreasonably
strong for their size (about the same as a T5). The W50 was used in
all five speed applications equipped with the R series engines (8R-C,
18R-C, 18R-G, 20R, and 22R), including Celicas from '71 - 81. The
W50 uses an iron case but is still quite light and is stronger than
the aluminum case W-55 and W-58 5 speeds found in later model Celicas
and Supras. For high performance use, it's the preferred version.

W50 gear ratios:

1st gear 3.525
2nd gear 2.054
3rd gear 1.396
4th gear 1.000
5th gear 0.815

When I bought my first Buick 215, it came attached to a W50 Toyota
5 speed. Dellow Automotive in Australia makes a bellhousing to
mate Toyota trannys to Buick/Rover blocks but mine's a custom job
that was installed in a '32 Ford street rod. A friend of mine was
in a street rod club and told me about a guy he knew who had
recently pulled a 215 out of his '32 coupe. He had ridden with guy
and was impressed with the engine/tranny combo but the owner decided
to replace it with the standard chevy 350 and TH350 automatic.
Apparently, the wife couldn't drive stick shifts.

The installation was done by the previous owner. He modified a
Buick 4 speed bellhousing to accept the Toyota tranny and slave.
The Toyota box has a tall/narrow bolt pattern versus the Buick's
short/wide pattern, so the original bolt holes were not altered.
He aluminum welded the original actuation arm hole shut and cut a
new one on the opposite side (passenger) and mounted an external
slave (from a Toyota Celica). The Buick flywheel was drilled to
accept a Toyota truck heavy duty clutch disc and pressure plate.

> a Supra box (although I've read some horror stories about dealing with
> Dellow - not to mention the distance & shipping factors of dealing
> with someone in Oz).

I think you'll find the current exchange rate will make that a very
expensive option.

> If you want to upgrade there is always the T-56 6-Speed that has one
> more gear and more adapting.

The T-56 is a substantially larger gearbox than either a T-5 or TKO.
I've heard some of the MGBV8 guys talk of mounting a Borg Warner T56
6 speed (used in Vipers, Camaros, Firebirds, Mustang Cobras, etc.)
and I've also heard of Toyota Supra 6 speed using a Dellow bellhousing.
I've heard some of the MGBV8 guys talk of mounting a Borg Warner
T56 6 speed but they must be using a custom adapter of some sort.
The T56 does not have a bellhousing to speak of. It has a narrow
adapter ring with the rest being transmission case. Be aware that
with any of the combinations, you may need to make a custom pilot
shaft bushing. I had to with my Rover tranny and Buick motor.
The pilot hole in the Buick crank requires a different diameter than
the Rover bush and the GM bush doesn't fit the Rover input shaft.
I bought one of each and took them to a machinist and told him I
needed the outer diameter of one and the inner diameter of the other.
I think he charged me $10 or $15 to make two of them out of oil-lite
(self lubricating) bronze.

The stock 215 flywheels are very heavy but vendors such as D&D and TSI
carry lighter steel and aluminum flywheels, drilled for a variety of
common clutch discs and pressure plates.

> The 3550 is a development of the T5, it seems like it should be possible
> to do the same thing with a T5.

Though often used to replace the Borg Warner T5, the Tremec 3550 is not
a development of the Borg Warner T5. The Tremec 3550 (and similar TKO)
transmissions are overdrive evolutions of the Ford top loader 4 speed.
Borg Warner sold off the T-5, T-45 and T-56 transmissions to Tremec
which can lead to confusion.

Dan Jones

Thank you Dan

Excellent information & advice I appreciate.

James

James,
Hope you get to swap in the 5 speed, I'm sure you'll love it. I'm glad you posted this thread, I have an aluminum V-8/T-5 project I'm working on. I'd like to ad that I'm a big fan of the T-5 as a swap candidate where trans weight matters and horsepower and vehicle weight are compatible. The T-5 is a solid trans, fairly compact and always available used at a budget price .

I did swap a Tremec TKO 600 into my '94 F-150 Lightning due to the weight of the vehicle and expected TQ/HP numbers when I rebuild the 351w. The TKO is 112 lbs including a Cobra R aluminum bellhousing.

Good luck with your project!
Mike