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harv8
Martyn Harvey
Waterloo, Ontario, Canada
(189 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 10:09PM

Main British Car:
MGB Rover V8, TVR Chevy V8, MGB GT Ford V8

authors avatar
Rover 3.9 and 4.0 Cylinder Liner Issue?
Posted by: harv8
Date: December 20, 2014 12:13PM

How big a problem is the cylinder liner issue with the Rover 3.9 motor? I was planning on using a 1994 3.9 block in my next car. What are the chances of having this problem? I also have a 4.0 block but according to everything I have read, this block is more prone to cylinder liner issues. Does anybody have personal experience with this issue? Thanks!


spridget
bill green
Maine
(68 posts)

Registered:
03/22/2008 01:29PM

Main British Car:
3 1980 TR8, 1 TR7 2 Bugeye Sprite 1 MG midget TR8 3.5 and 5.0, Sprite 1098 and ?

Re: Rover 3.9 and 4.0 Cylinder Liner Issue?
Posted by: spridget
Date: December 22, 2014 02:24PM

Hi, It is my understanding that the 3.9, 4.0 and the 4.6 blocks are the same except the 3.9 is not cross bolted. I had a 4.0 with 3 slipped liners. we found a crack in the lifter gallery which made the block too expensive to repair. This was not discovered until the old liners were bored out.


harv8
Martyn Harvey
Waterloo, Ontario, Canada
(189 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 10:09PM

Main British Car:
MGB Rover V8, TVR Chevy V8, MGB GT Ford V8

authors avatar
Re: Rover 3.9 and 4.0 Cylinder Liner Issue?
Posted by: harv8
Date: December 23, 2014 12:49AM

Thanks for that personal experience report Bill.


MGBV8
Carl Floyd
Kingsport, TN
(4512 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 11:32PM

Main British Car:
1979 MGB Buick 215

authors avatar
Re: Rover 3.9 and 4.0 Cylinder Liner Issue?
Posted by: MGBV8
Date: December 23, 2014 11:26AM

Everything I have read says that the 4.0 was the worst offender. The 4.6 is supposedly better because they used the best blocks with the least core shift. Less of an issue with the 3.9, least with the 3.5 (zero with the Buick 215) Of course, it could happen to any Rover since they all have pressed in sleeves. Core shift + overheating, then cracking of the bore behind liner (not always)= slipped liner.

Lots of great Rover info on this forum.

[www.v8forum.co.uk]


harv8
Martyn Harvey
Waterloo, Ontario, Canada
(189 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 10:09PM

Main British Car:
MGB Rover V8, TVR Chevy V8, MGB GT Ford V8

authors avatar
Re: Rover 3.9 and 4.0 Cylinder Liner Issue?
Posted by: harv8
Date: December 24, 2014 09:47AM

Thanks Carl, I called Mark Lagrou yesterday. That was a great conversation and I learned lots from him.
Cheers!


BlownMGB-V8
Jim Blackwood
9406 Gunpowder Rd., Florence, KY 41042
(6469 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 12:59PM

Main British Car:
1971 MGB Blown,Injected,Intercooled Buick 340/AA80E/JagIRS

authors avatar
Re: Rover 3.9 and 4.0 Cylinder Liner Issue?
Posted by: BlownMGB-V8
Date: December 24, 2014 12:08PM

Yet another great reason to use the 300 block.

Jim


Moderator
Curtis Jacobson
Portland Oregon
(4577 posts)

Registered:
10/12/2007 02:16AM

Main British Car:
71 MGBGT, Buick 215

authors avatar
Re: Rover 3.9 and 4.0 Cylinder Liner Issue?
Posted by: Moderator
Date: December 24, 2014 12:16PM

"and I learned lots"

You're teasing us! What did you learn? Does Mark prefer the earlier block? I'm guessing he had some thoughts about the differences between main bearings and caps.



harv8
Martyn Harvey
Waterloo, Ontario, Canada
(189 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 10:09PM

Main British Car:
MGB Rover V8, TVR Chevy V8, MGB GT Ford V8

authors avatar
Re: Rover 3.9 and 4.0 Cylinder Liner Issue?
Posted by: harv8
Date: December 24, 2014 05:33PM

Well I may have mislead you a bit with that statement...."learned lots".
I am embarking on converting a really nice 74.5GT to V8. My plan is to spend as little money as possible on this project by using all the parts I have collected over the years. I certainly have most of what I need. However......I have a choice of engines. I have a beautiful complete and original P6 motor with 46,000 original miles on it that I have kept for 17 years with the intention of putting it in an MGB. I have a 3.9 short block and a 4.0 engine in pieces. Mark helped me make a plan that would fit my intention of spending little or no money. More to come......

I'm looking for a set of good used SD1 heads.

Cheers!


MGBV8
Carl Floyd
Kingsport, TN
(4512 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 11:32PM

Main British Car:
1979 MGB Buick 215

authors avatar
Re: Rover 3.9 and 4.0 Cylinder Liner Issue?
Posted by: MGBV8
Date: January 23, 2015 10:30AM

More on Rover blocks:
Quote:
From the research I have done in the past across many threads on many forums there are two main reasons for water leaks around liners, firstly what could be termed age related, where the block has, for one reason or another, usually not enough anti freeze or poor semi dry storage then reuse of the engine the block has become filled with crud and hot spots have developed that have cracked the block at the deck. Often to a bolt hole and the liner has become loose, this happens in older engines, 100k plus miles, usually 3.9s. there appear also to be some cases where the QC was so bad that engines went out the door with the liners not properly seated, these ones seem to be on the first of the 4.2s in RR classic long wheel base (I have found 2 4.2s like this on forums in the past and considering they did not make very many......). I will say the QC related problems seem to be related 3.9s and 4.2s and this is what kills these blocks.
The cracking behind the liner resulting in the liner dropping problem, from what I have found seems to me to be a fault related almost entirley to the 4.0/4.6 block. In this case I think after the very poor reputation of the 4.2 for reliability (the nose falling off the crank, warped heads and snapping rods) I think the QC problems were mostly sorted. I also think the new/ refurbished production line for the new block meant the liners were being seated properlyin the first place so the later problem was being seen first. This was the time rover had been sold, that is where the money came for the 4.6/4.0 blocks and the new owners were trying to sell off landrover to get back some of the investment money.
I have seen posts with problems relating to the more unusual blocks like the 3.5 cross bolt and the cross bolted 3.9 intermediate blocks, but I think these relate to use in that the owners were pushng the outputs to points where the rover is just not strong enough to hold together.
Generally the middle run 3.5 block seems to be liner problem free, they were made before the issues of QC andthe early 3.9s with the extra webbing were pretty good it was on the 3.9/4.2 blocks where the casting/machining lines were old and worn out, that liner/QC problems started remember the 3.9s were from the time the government were trying to sell off Rover to the lowest bidder and did not want to spend any money on it and rover had spent a load of money on the iceberg engine that never made it to production and so they used up all the bits from that project into RR production engines, and dumped a load of the bits on TVR.
Also the later 3.5 blocks were strengthened for the Range rover but were only expected to make about 140 bhp so the stresses on them were much less and had non overdrive autos with non lock up converters, or ran low geared 4 speed manuals, though some had O/D units fitted they did end up with a very pedestrian shift that did not lend itself to giving the engine a good thrashing! I think here as you imply with the 3.5 the issue is old age of the blocks and lack of maintenance/anti freeze causing block problems.
Avoid the very early P5/P6 and the 101fc and stage 1 v8 blocks they are very week around the valley area and had a reputation of falling in half down the middle if stuck in a heavy vehicle/ tuned and revved, these were still the old stock that came over from Buick when rover bought the design and date from '61/'62 and were very exotic casting technology for GM at the time!

[www.v8forum.co.uk]



Moderator
Curtis Jacobson
Portland Oregon
(4577 posts)

Registered:
10/12/2007 02:16AM

Main British Car:
71 MGBGT, Buick 215

authors avatar
Re: Rover 3.9 and 4.0 Cylinder Liner Issue?
Posted by: Moderator
Date: January 23, 2015 11:52AM

That's an interesting quote, Carl. But the writer lost a lot of credibility with me when I got to the final paragraph. I don't believe Rover obtained any significant number of five or six year old GM blocks. I've no doubt there were a few blocks and complete engines for engineering purposes, but clean and unused blocks for the assembly line? No.

With regards to GM's casting technology, GM had already forgotten more about casting by 1960 than Rover ever learned. Remember, Rover was a tiny insignificant independent player when they bought the engine's design. They weren't acquired by Leyland until later, and the big "British Leyland" merger came after that. In the late 1950s, GM had the largest and best R&D department in the world, bar none. GM could afford extensive testing and also state-of-the-art tooling. When I used to work at Volvo, people talked about the "not invented here" syndrome. It's natural to have a prejudice against any design from outside the department or outside the company. For some reason, a lot of Brits and RangeRover guys seem predisposed to discount GM's work - but where would they be without GM's excellent foundation to base later development on? It was a GM block that Brabham used to win a Formula One World Championship, not a Rover block. Fall in half down the middle... forsooth! If there are legitimate reasons to avoid early P5/P6 engines, they're unique to Rover production.


mgbreis
Ryan Reis
Beatrice, NE
(203 posts)

Registered:
07/16/2008 11:07AM

Main British Car:


Re: Rover 3.9 and 4.0 Cylinder Liner Issue?
Posted by: mgbreis
Date: January 23, 2015 12:33PM

This is all very interesting! However, I feel like I'm back in law school and I'm still wondering when someone is going to answer the question! I've got a complete 3.9 that I'd like to use in something someday. How do I know if it's any good?


MGBV8
Carl Floyd
Kingsport, TN
(4512 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 11:32PM

Main British Car:
1979 MGB Buick 215

authors avatar
Re: Rover 3.9 and 4.0 Cylinder Liner Issue?
Posted by: MGBV8
Date: January 23, 2015 12:54PM

Pressure test it yourself, Ryan. I plan to try this if/when I get around to using my 3.9.

http://www.cowdery.org.uk/images/v8rebuild-08/pressuretest.jpg



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/23/2015 03:05PM by MGBV8.


BlownMGB-V8
Jim Blackwood
9406 Gunpowder Rd., Florence, KY 41042
(6469 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 12:59PM

Main British Car:
1971 MGB Blown,Injected,Intercooled Buick 340/AA80E/JagIRS

authors avatar
Re: Rover 3.9 and 4.0 Cylinder Liner Issue?
Posted by: BlownMGB-V8
Date: January 23, 2015 04:19PM

If you don't have the tub you could also plumb your water hose into it and watch for a trickle with a dry paper under the block. Let it sit overnight even. You could also just test one side at a time using an even simpler setup.

Curtis raises an interesting point about GM's experience with casting and in general that would have to be true, but most of their work up to then was in steel (iron) and die casting without much in the way of imbedded liners, though obviously they were by that time quite good at casting transmission housings. Why this skill level didn't translate directly to the 215 line is a good question. No doubt some of it did, but it seems pretty well established that core shift and porosity were the main issues. Both should have been easily and quickly resolved.

Rover avoided the core shift problem (and replaced it with a cracking problem) by inserting the liners as a secondary operation, and their use of sand casting instead of die casting MAY have helped avoid the porosity problem though that is just a guess. What we do know is that by that time the British foundries had some good experience with sand casting aluminum.

Personally I'd guess that with GM it was a numbers game. The foundry cranked out a mass number of engine castings and by the time the problems were discovered the decision had been made that the sales figures didn't justify fixing the problems. If that was the case it's a pretty safe bet that the planned remedies went to Rover along with the license and tooling.

Jim



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/23/2015 04:46PM by BlownMGB-V8.


mgbreis
Ryan Reis
Beatrice, NE
(203 posts)

Registered:
07/16/2008 11:07AM

Main British Car:


Re: Rover 3.9 and 4.0 Cylinder Liner Issue?
Posted by: mgbreis
Date: January 23, 2015 05:10PM

Good thinking Carl. I'm picturing myself, the kids, the dog, and my 3.9 block all in the swimming pool next summer. Should be fun, and if the block leaks it'll at least provide the whirlpool bubble effect.


MGBV8
Carl Floyd
Kingsport, TN
(4512 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 11:32PM

Main British Car:
1979 MGB Buick 215

authors avatar
Re: Rover 3.9 and 4.0 Cylinder Liner Issue?
Posted by: MGBV8
Date: January 23, 2015 06:18PM

Don't go more than 50psi. Don't want to blow out the core plugs. Problem is that apparently some of these cracks behind the liners need the block at operating temps to show up. This can be done by using hot water instead of air.

[motorcarsltd.blogspot.com]

[robisonservice.blogspot.com]



harv8
Martyn Harvey
Waterloo, Ontario, Canada
(189 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 10:09PM

Main British Car:
MGB Rover V8, TVR Chevy V8, MGB GT Ford V8

authors avatar
Re: Rover 3.9 and 4.0 Cylinder Liner Issue?
Posted by: harv8
Date: January 25, 2015 11:05PM

Interesting! I think I will use my 3.9 block after all.


ptschram
PT Schram
Churubusco, IN
(6 posts)

Registered:
11/24/2013 05:32AM

Main British Car:
'67 through 2001 Land Rovers.

Re: Rover 3.9 and 4.0 Cylinder Liner Issue?
Posted by: ptschram
Date: January 27, 2015 01:40PM

I have replaced nearly 50 Rover engines in DIIs over the past five years.

these were all 4.0 or 4.6 with either coolant loss or over-pressurization of cooling systems probably due to liner/block issues.

I overheated the 3.9 in my own '95 Disco so badly that a valve guide slipped from its home and blocked a valve open but did not damage the block.

I have heard many say the 3.9/4.2 were most susceptible but in my experience, this has not been the case.

That said, every Rover engine is a crap shoot until you've assembled it and run it.

Mark is a great guy whom I call friend.


BlownMGB-V8
Jim Blackwood
9406 Gunpowder Rd., Florence, KY 41042
(6469 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 12:59PM

Main British Car:
1971 MGB Blown,Injected,Intercooled Buick 340/AA80E/JagIRS

authors avatar
Re: Rover 3.9 and 4.0 Cylinder Liner Issue?
Posted by: BlownMGB-V8
Date: January 28, 2015 11:24AM

And THAT my friends, is one very big reason why I consider the 300 block to be a good investment. (Even though in my personal car I have the 340. The 300 just fits so much better, and it can be built as big as the taller block.)

Along with no issues of liner slippage, no thread pull-out problems, and considerably greater strength, porosity problems are virtually unknown. You do of course need to check for core shift but that is easily identified before the machine work is done.

Jim


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