harv8 Martyn Harvey Waterloo, Ontario, Canada (189 posts) Registered: 10/23/2007 10:09PM Main British Car: MGB Rover V8, TVR Chevy V8, MGB GT Ford V8 |
Rover 3.9 and 4.0 Cylinder Liner Issue?
How big a problem is the cylinder liner issue with the Rover 3.9 motor? I was planning on using a 1994 3.9 block in my next car. What are the chances of having this problem? I also have a 4.0 block but according to everything I have read, this block is more prone to cylinder liner issues. Does anybody have personal experience with this issue? Thanks!
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spridget bill green Maine (68 posts) Registered: 03/22/2008 01:29PM Main British Car: 3 1980 TR8, 1 TR7 2 Bugeye Sprite 1 MG midget TR8 3.5 and 5.0, Sprite 1098 and ? |
Re: Rover 3.9 and 4.0 Cylinder Liner Issue?
Hi, It is my understanding that the 3.9, 4.0 and the 4.6 blocks are the same except the 3.9 is not cross bolted. I had a 4.0 with 3 slipped liners. we found a crack in the lifter gallery which made the block too expensive to repair. This was not discovered until the old liners were bored out.
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MGBV8 Carl Floyd Kingsport, TN (4512 posts) Registered: 10/23/2007 11:32PM Main British Car: 1979 MGB Buick 215 |
Re: Rover 3.9 and 4.0 Cylinder Liner Issue?
Everything I have read says that the 4.0 was the worst offender. The 4.6 is supposedly better because they used the best blocks with the least core shift. Less of an issue with the 3.9, least with the 3.5 (zero with the Buick 215) Of course, it could happen to any Rover since they all have pressed in sleeves. Core shift + overheating, then cracking of the bore behind liner (not always)= slipped liner.
Lots of great Rover info on this forum. [www.v8forum.co.uk] |
harv8 Martyn Harvey Waterloo, Ontario, Canada (189 posts) Registered: 10/23/2007 10:09PM Main British Car: MGB Rover V8, TVR Chevy V8, MGB GT Ford V8 |
Re: Rover 3.9 and 4.0 Cylinder Liner Issue?
Thanks Carl, I called Mark Lagrou yesterday. That was a great conversation and I learned lots from him.
Cheers! |
BlownMGB-V8 Jim Blackwood 9406 Gunpowder Rd., Florence, KY 41042 (6469 posts) Registered: 10/23/2007 12:59PM Main British Car: 1971 MGB Blown,Injected,Intercooled Buick 340/AA80E/JagIRS |
Re: Rover 3.9 and 4.0 Cylinder Liner Issue?
Yet another great reason to use the 300 block.
Jim |
Moderator Curtis Jacobson Portland Oregon (4577 posts) Registered: 10/12/2007 02:16AM Main British Car: 71 MGBGT, Buick 215 |
Re: Rover 3.9 and 4.0 Cylinder Liner Issue?
"and I learned lots"
You're teasing us! What did you learn? Does Mark prefer the earlier block? I'm guessing he had some thoughts about the differences between main bearings and caps. |
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harv8 Martyn Harvey Waterloo, Ontario, Canada (189 posts) Registered: 10/23/2007 10:09PM Main British Car: MGB Rover V8, TVR Chevy V8, MGB GT Ford V8 |
Re: Rover 3.9 and 4.0 Cylinder Liner Issue?
Well I may have mislead you a bit with that statement...."learned lots".
I am embarking on converting a really nice 74.5GT to V8. My plan is to spend as little money as possible on this project by using all the parts I have collected over the years. I certainly have most of what I need. However......I have a choice of engines. I have a beautiful complete and original P6 motor with 46,000 original miles on it that I have kept for 17 years with the intention of putting it in an MGB. I have a 3.9 short block and a 4.0 engine in pieces. Mark helped me make a plan that would fit my intention of spending little or no money. More to come...... I'm looking for a set of good used SD1 heads. Cheers! |
MGBV8 Carl Floyd Kingsport, TN (4512 posts) Registered: 10/23/2007 11:32PM Main British Car: 1979 MGB Buick 215 |
Re: Rover 3.9 and 4.0 Cylinder Liner Issue?
More on Rover blocks:
Quote: |
Moderator Curtis Jacobson Portland Oregon (4577 posts) Registered: 10/12/2007 02:16AM Main British Car: 71 MGBGT, Buick 215 |
Re: Rover 3.9 and 4.0 Cylinder Liner Issue?
That's an interesting quote, Carl. But the writer lost a lot of credibility with me when I got to the final paragraph. I don't believe Rover obtained any significant number of five or six year old GM blocks. I've no doubt there were a few blocks and complete engines for engineering purposes, but clean and unused blocks for the assembly line? No.
With regards to GM's casting technology, GM had already forgotten more about casting by 1960 than Rover ever learned. Remember, Rover was a tiny insignificant independent player when they bought the engine's design. They weren't acquired by Leyland until later, and the big "British Leyland" merger came after that. In the late 1950s, GM had the largest and best R&D department in the world, bar none. GM could afford extensive testing and also state-of-the-art tooling. When I used to work at Volvo, people talked about the "not invented here" syndrome. It's natural to have a prejudice against any design from outside the department or outside the company. For some reason, a lot of Brits and RangeRover guys seem predisposed to discount GM's work - but where would they be without GM's excellent foundation to base later development on? It was a GM block that Brabham used to win a Formula One World Championship, not a Rover block. Fall in half down the middle... forsooth! If there are legitimate reasons to avoid early P5/P6 engines, they're unique to Rover production. |
Re: Rover 3.9 and 4.0 Cylinder Liner Issue?
This is all very interesting! However, I feel like I'm back in law school and I'm still wondering when someone is going to answer the question! I've got a complete 3.9 that I'd like to use in something someday. How do I know if it's any good?
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MGBV8 Carl Floyd Kingsport, TN (4512 posts) Registered: 10/23/2007 11:32PM Main British Car: 1979 MGB Buick 215 |
Re: Rover 3.9 and 4.0 Cylinder Liner Issue?
Pressure test it yourself, Ryan. I plan to try this if/when I get around to using my 3.9.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/23/2015 03:05PM by MGBV8. |
BlownMGB-V8 Jim Blackwood 9406 Gunpowder Rd., Florence, KY 41042 (6469 posts) Registered: 10/23/2007 12:59PM Main British Car: 1971 MGB Blown,Injected,Intercooled Buick 340/AA80E/JagIRS |
Re: Rover 3.9 and 4.0 Cylinder Liner Issue?
If you don't have the tub you could also plumb your water hose into it and watch for a trickle with a dry paper under the block. Let it sit overnight even. You could also just test one side at a time using an even simpler setup.
Curtis raises an interesting point about GM's experience with casting and in general that would have to be true, but most of their work up to then was in steel (iron) and die casting without much in the way of imbedded liners, though obviously they were by that time quite good at casting transmission housings. Why this skill level didn't translate directly to the 215 line is a good question. No doubt some of it did, but it seems pretty well established that core shift and porosity were the main issues. Both should have been easily and quickly resolved. Rover avoided the core shift problem (and replaced it with a cracking problem) by inserting the liners as a secondary operation, and their use of sand casting instead of die casting MAY have helped avoid the porosity problem though that is just a guess. What we do know is that by that time the British foundries had some good experience with sand casting aluminum. Personally I'd guess that with GM it was a numbers game. The foundry cranked out a mass number of engine castings and by the time the problems were discovered the decision had been made that the sales figures didn't justify fixing the problems. If that was the case it's a pretty safe bet that the planned remedies went to Rover along with the license and tooling. Jim Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/23/2015 04:46PM by BlownMGB-V8. |
Re: Rover 3.9 and 4.0 Cylinder Liner Issue?
Good thinking Carl. I'm picturing myself, the kids, the dog, and my 3.9 block all in the swimming pool next summer. Should be fun, and if the block leaks it'll at least provide the whirlpool bubble effect.
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MGBV8 Carl Floyd Kingsport, TN (4512 posts) Registered: 10/23/2007 11:32PM Main British Car: 1979 MGB Buick 215 |
Re: Rover 3.9 and 4.0 Cylinder Liner Issue?
Don't go more than 50psi. Don't want to blow out the core plugs. Problem is that apparently some of these cracks behind the liners need the block at operating temps to show up. This can be done by using hot water instead of air.
[motorcarsltd.blogspot.com] [robisonservice.blogspot.com] |
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ptschram PT Schram Churubusco, IN (6 posts) Registered: 11/24/2013 05:32AM Main British Car: '67 through 2001 Land Rovers. |
Re: Rover 3.9 and 4.0 Cylinder Liner Issue?
I have replaced nearly 50 Rover engines in DIIs over the past five years.
these were all 4.0 or 4.6 with either coolant loss or over-pressurization of cooling systems probably due to liner/block issues. I overheated the 3.9 in my own '95 Disco so badly that a valve guide slipped from its home and blocked a valve open but did not damage the block. I have heard many say the 3.9/4.2 were most susceptible but in my experience, this has not been the case. That said, every Rover engine is a crap shoot until you've assembled it and run it. Mark is a great guy whom I call friend. |
BlownMGB-V8 Jim Blackwood 9406 Gunpowder Rd., Florence, KY 41042 (6469 posts) Registered: 10/23/2007 12:59PM Main British Car: 1971 MGB Blown,Injected,Intercooled Buick 340/AA80E/JagIRS |
Re: Rover 3.9 and 4.0 Cylinder Liner Issue?
And THAT my friends, is one very big reason why I consider the 300 block to be a good investment. (Even though in my personal car I have the 340. The 300 just fits so much better, and it can be built as big as the taller block.)
Along with no issues of liner slippage, no thread pull-out problems, and considerably greater strength, porosity problems are virtually unknown. You do of course need to check for core shift but that is easily identified before the machine work is done. Jim |