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tips, technology, tools and techniques related to vehicle driveline components

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MustangSix
Jack Collins

(30 posts)

Registered:
12/16/2011 10:53AM

Main British Car:


Re: megasquirt woes
Posted by: MustangSix
Date: March 30, 2015 02:13PM

Jim, hit it. A regular test light won't light up fast enough to show an injector pulse, but an LED that gets a 15ms pulse will be easily seen.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/30/2015 03:08PM by MustangSix.


cgill
Chris Gill
Salmon Arm, British Columbia
(129 posts)

Registered:
08/13/2009 12:06AM

Main British Car:
1979 MGB roadster Buick 300 stroker with EFI

authors avatar
Re: megasquirt woes
Posted by: cgill
Date: March 30, 2015 09:15PM

Thanks guys.

I have the injectors out for bench testing including flow. I had one screw up in my fuel outputs; it was set at MS3x, not standard fuel. I am using the main relay board for my injector wiring, not the expansion card on my MS3x. The reason for this is...well...I am pretty ignorant of this whole EFI stuff and didn't even think about it. Now I need to see if I should run the injectors from the expansion board. I have asked DIYautotune techs for advice on what is best for semi-sequential.

I get the injectors back on Friday so I will try to find an LED to see if I can test for pulsing. The output fuel might just be the smoking gun for at least that part.

My second question concerns us finding 5 degrees advance during cranking. My engine builder and I were very careful when we installed the VR sensor bracket so I am surprised it is out that much, unless we had strobe light issues. If it is indeed out by 5 degrees can I advance it another 5 using the Trigger Wizard feature in the full version of Tuner Studio or do I need to physically move the sensor?

Thanks for all your patience. I am in over my head but there is no turning back so I really appreciate the advice!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/30/2015 11:00PM by cgill.


BlownMGB-V8
Jim Blackwood
9406 Gunpowder Rd., Florence, KY 41042
(6468 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 12:59PM

Main British Car:
1971 MGB Blown,Injected,Intercooled Buick 340/AA80E/JagIRS

authors avatar
Re: megasquirt woes
Posted by: BlownMGB-V8
Date: March 31, 2015 10:14AM

Chris, the EDIS defaults to an internal setting for engine cranking, one of those not so well documented features. I do not recall what that setting is, but I don't know how you would change it. Anything between 0 and 10 should start most engines easily. More than 10 will tend to cause kickback and broken starters. 5 degrees is generally a good number, so is zero.

This is another of those things that MS3 will allow you to change if you decide to go to COP later. But it is a good system. The EDIS can operate fully independently from the MS, relying only on the VR sensor input. If that happens it reverts to 10 degrees of advance any time it does not have a SAW input. But I think it has a separate setting for cranking speed which is what you are seeing. That number may be different for different modules, I really don't know.

Once you get the engine running, you can unplug the SAW input line to the EDIS and your timing should go to 10 degrees (The factory included a plug for this purpose). This would confirm that your trigger wheel is installed correctly. There is an offset in MS you can use if it is needed, but don't try to set it at cranking speed unless you know the spec for your module.

It sounds like you've zeroed in on the problem though. MS3 is still pretty new to most of us. Mine is still in the box waiting to be installed after the new engine is running well on the old MS2. Getting the settings to accurately match the actual hardware configuration is one of the more important things you have to get right. You have taken some very big steps in your upgrade and done them very quickly, it is normal to expect a few hiccups before it all runs smoothly. I was not personally aware that you had to set MS3 for either the extender board or the relay board for the injector outputs but it stands to reason that you would since the extenter board has it's own connector to external wiring. Often it turns out to be a small thing like this. I usually bring the injector outputs directly off the main MS connector so I haven't had to deal with this issue up to now, but obviously will when I go to full sequential.

So with that setting corrected you can go ahead and test for outputs while you are waiting for your injectors to be tested. Get that going and provided they come back good you should be ready to fire it up and begin tuning.

Here is a link for an injector sizing calculator:
[www.witchhunter.com]

You can see that 24 lb injectors are typically good for up to about 300 Hp. However this is dependent on both rpm and fuel rail pressure, so an adjustable FPR can be a handy thing to have. Your injectors with a little bump in pressure should work out OK for your 350 provided you are running a mild cam and a stock redline. If either changes you will probably need bigger injectors. Especially the redline, remember the example where 25ms on time means the injectors go solid at 4800 rpm? At 7000 rpm that becomes about 17 ms so for the same horsepower output your injector size increased around 30% and that's more than you can safely compensate for with rail ressure in most cases. (Of course if your redline goes up that much you'll also be making considerably more than 300 hp.)This is why you see dual injectors on high rpm engines. One to run the engine at idle and low speed where a short pulse and well metered spray is required, and the second to dump fuel at high speed. However, those are pretty extreme cases, usually race engines.

Jim


mgb260
Jim Nichols
Sequim,WA
(2461 posts)

Registered:
02/29/2008 08:29PM

Main British Car:
1973 MGB roadster 260 Ford V8

Re: megasquirt woes
Posted by: mgb260
Date: March 31, 2015 12:55PM

Jim, His injectors are used in the 6.0 LS also and are closer to 25lb/hr at 50psi in the 5.3. Around 29lb/hr in the 6.0 recommended at 60 psi. Plus, running semi-sequential he would need half as much fuel twice as often. I think the size will be almost ideal. When we chose them we also liked the short length. I calculated up to 400HP at 85 percent duty cycle. Goldilocks, not too big, not too small, but just right. His cam may seem large in a smaller Rover 3.5 or 215, but in a 350 with 10 to 1 compression is just right for dynamic compression. I think it will be a much better combination than the Hot Rod mag build, once he gets the Megasquirt figured out.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/31/2015 12:58PM by mgb260.


IaTR6
Dennis Costello
Central Iowa
(191 posts)

Registered:
12/29/2007 02:53PM

Main British Car:
'73 TR 6 '97 Explorer 5.0

Re: megasquirt woes
Posted by: IaTR6
Date: March 31, 2015 01:02PM

Please forgive me if I am way off here, but I am trying to learn as much as possible before i start my Megasquirt project. I looked at the files that were sent, and find this line: 80.0
I have an EDIS, and thought the degrees from the missing tooth to TDC was 50.
Thanks,
Dennis


mgb260
Jim Nichols
Sequim,WA
(2461 posts)

Registered:
02/29/2008 08:29PM

Main British Car:
1973 MGB roadster 260 Ford V8

Re: megasquirt woes
Posted by: mgb260
Date: March 31, 2015 01:22PM

Dennis, Good find. Probably a typo and everything helps.


BlownMGB-V8
Jim Blackwood
9406 Gunpowder Rd., Florence, KY 41042
(6468 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 12:59PM

Main British Car:
1971 MGB Blown,Injected,Intercooled Buick 340/AA80E/JagIRS

authors avatar
Re: megasquirt woes
Posted by: BlownMGB-V8
Date: March 31, 2015 01:36PM

Dennis, you are correct about the 50* (5 teeth). That is not as critical in MS as it is with MegaJolt but it still should be configured correctly as it makes everything else a little easier. Not sure what the 80.0 you are referring to is, but I haven't looked at the file yet either.

Jim, odds are good you are right, or at least that the FPR can be adjusted to compensate. I'm guessing Chris won't be going over 6 grand on his redline, so as long as his injector on time does not exceed 20 ms at that speed he should be in good shape. (actually 19ms, see below) He really won't know that though until the later stages of tuning when he's setting up full power. It's just something to watch out for when he gets to that stage. His redline may have to be set accordingly.

The number of squirts does factor in though since you have to consider the injector turn on time of about a millisecond and subtract that from your total available. For instance, firing twice with 20 milliseconds to use at 6K means you only have an actual 18 ms (or less) to inject fuel and that either cuts into your total fuel delivery or means a 2ms jump from 18ms to 20ms when the injectors are turned on all the time. I'm not sure if MS does that, though so it's safer to assume it does not. Typical injector turn-on time is usually at least 1.2ms and may be over 1.4, it varies by the injector design. Newer is generally better, peak-and-hold are definitely better but require special circuitry. A top notch injector test service should be able to tell Chris what his actual turn-on delay is. It's something you probably have to ask for.

Jim



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/31/2015 01:38PM by BlownMGB-V8.



Moderator
Curtis Jacobson
Portland Oregon
(4576 posts)

Registered:
10/12/2007 02:16AM

Main British Car:
71 MGBGT, Buick 215

authors avatar
Re: megasquirt woes
Posted by: Moderator
Date: April 07, 2015 10:32PM

Chris, are you still messing with this thing? Why not post a fresher log file? One thing I noticed in your old one was that your Throttle Position Sensor had never been calibrated. Only takes a second to correct that. Maybe you've fixed it already. I bet we can find more issues like that...


cgill
Chris Gill
Salmon Arm, British Columbia
(129 posts)

Registered:
08/13/2009 12:06AM

Main British Car:
1979 MGB roadster Buick 300 stroker with EFI

authors avatar
Re: megasquirt woes
Posted by: cgill
Date: April 10, 2015 05:10PM

Hi Curtis,

Sorry, I took a break because it was getting to me. I am back on it.

I checked the coil pulg wiring and found a mix up so I fixed that. The car starts but runs rough. If you give it any throttle it immediately dies. AFR seems to be 10.3. The MS gauge shows that as well.

I don't know how to post the data log and tune on here but it is on the MS forum

[www.msextra.com]


cgill
Chris Gill
Salmon Arm, British Columbia
(129 posts)

Registered:
08/13/2009 12:06AM

Main British Car:
1979 MGB roadster Buick 300 stroker with EFI

authors avatar
Re: megasquirt woes
Posted by: cgill
Date: April 10, 2015 07:05PM

It's running rough because only #2 and 3 seem to be firing based on plug colour (black compared to almost new for the other ones). Why, I don't know.


DiDueColpi
Fred Key
West coast - Canada
(1365 posts)

Registered:
05/14/2010 03:06AM

Main British Car:
I really thought that I'd be an action figure by now!

authors avatar
Re: megasquirt woes
Posted by: DiDueColpi
Date: April 10, 2015 08:56PM

Hi Chris,

You're probably firing on the other six plugs and not 2 and 3. If they are black then they are fuel fouled and won't fire.
Due to the vintage nature of my laptop I can't download your files. But I'll fix that shortly and get back to you.

Live like you mean it.
Fred


cgill
Chris Gill
Salmon Arm, British Columbia
(129 posts)

Registered:
08/13/2009 12:06AM

Main British Car:
1979 MGB roadster Buick 300 stroker with EFI

authors avatar
Re: megasquirt woes
Posted by: cgill
Date: April 10, 2015 09:20PM

http://i697.photobucket.com/albums/vv335/cgill/20150410_181155_zpsmmeoeudx.jpg

Two plugs for comparison...


Moderator
Curtis Jacobson
Portland Oregon
(4576 posts)

Registered:
10/12/2007 02:16AM

Main British Car:
71 MGBGT, Buick 215

authors avatar
Re: megasquirt woes
Posted by: Moderator
Date: April 10, 2015 10:25PM

An inductive timing light will tell you whether a plug is firing. Move it from lead to lead...

You can upload an MSL logfile here exactly the same way you upload a photo here. You might have to clip the beginning or ending off your log to get it down to the 600kb file size limit. The name of the logfile will appear in your message. If someone clicks on that file name, their browser will show the log in text form. No problem. If they save the file (to their desktop for example), they can open it with MegaLogViewer. Okay... that's kinda clunky, but at least the file can be stored here.

cgill-April10.msl



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/10/2015 10:29PM by Moderator.


cgill
Chris Gill
Salmon Arm, British Columbia
(129 posts)

Registered:
08/13/2009 12:06AM

Main British Car:
1979 MGB roadster Buick 300 stroker with EFI

authors avatar
Re: megasquirt woes
Posted by: cgill
Date: April 11, 2015 12:48AM

Hmmm...now to track down an inductive timing light!


BlownMGB-V8
Jim Blackwood
9406 Gunpowder Rd., Florence, KY 41042
(6468 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 12:59PM

Main British Car:
1971 MGB Blown,Injected,Intercooled Buick 340/AA80E/JagIRS

authors avatar
Re: megasquirt woes
Posted by: BlownMGB-V8
Date: April 11, 2015 10:32AM

If you just have two black plugs, check first to see if they are on the same coil. If they are, check the primary side of the coil for a signal and if that is there replace the coil.

Jim



cgill
Chris Gill
Salmon Arm, British Columbia
(129 posts)

Registered:
08/13/2009 12:06AM

Main British Car:
1979 MGB roadster Buick 300 stroker with EFI

authors avatar
Re: megasquirt woes
Posted by: cgill
Date: April 11, 2015 10:36AM

Yes the two black plugs are on the same coil (#2 and 3).

That's my plan today. Thanks Jim.

So the second plug in that photo looks okay? I thought it would be darker given I have run the engine for two minutes. Sorry, this is all new to me. It's a great dose of reality and very humbling.

Chris


MG four six eight
Bill Jacobson
Wa state
(324 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 02:15AM

Main British Car:
73 MGB Buick 215, Eaton/GM supercharger

Re: megasquirt woes
Posted by: MG four six eight
Date: April 11, 2015 12:44PM

Chris,

It takes awhile for the plugs to "color in". With new plugs I would check to see if any are wet with fuel.
Also if you do have a bad coil as Jim mentioned, I would replace the 2 effected plugs as well. Sometimes once they have been fuel fouled they will not always fire correctly.

Bill


cgill
Chris Gill
Salmon Arm, British Columbia
(129 posts)

Registered:
08/13/2009 12:06AM

Main British Car:
1979 MGB roadster Buick 300 stroker with EFI

authors avatar
Re: megasquirt woes
Posted by: cgill
Date: April 11, 2015 02:48PM

It's running finally. It was a plug order issue even though I checked it. I must be losing my mind.

It is running lean. I know I have to adjust the VE table but I am done messing with it. The plan is to get it towed to someone who has experience tuning about an hour away and get him to finish the tuning.

Thank you for all the advice and help!
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