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tips, technology, tools and techniques related to vehicle driveline components

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Mimic
Landon Brown
Victoria, B.C.
(8 posts)

Registered:
10/07/2008 10:11PM

Main British Car:
1976 MGB (Or what is left of one) Buick 215

Engine Timing?
Posted by: Mimic
Date: October 07, 2008 10:45PM

So I picked up this little demon in the paper as a MGB V8, someone had died and it had been bought at an auction, then re-sold. Anyways, i'm trying to fix it up, I have no idea what KIND of engine it is, assumably a 3.5L Rover, but is there any way to tell? Also, I was wondering if anyone has any ideas on how I can set the timing correctly, all the degrees and markers are worn away on the engine and i'm no professional, all I can say is that it has the old distributor with new cap, coil, and wiring, and I dont know exactly how to face the distributor or where the plugs will go on the cap, all I know is the firing order. Any ideas? =\


t.lay
Tom Lay
Grayslake, IL
(93 posts)

Registered:
05/13/2008 09:53PM

Main British Car:
72 mg b gt

Re: Engine Timing?
Posted by: t.lay
Date: October 08, 2008 12:10AM

Welcome!

Got photos/serial #s? That will help w/engine ID.
For timing - first find tdc (pull spark plug on #1 cyl - turn motor - with no spark - till your at the top of the compression stroke. If you put your finger over the plug hole as you turn the motor - it's the point your finger gets a puff of air that pushes off the hole). You're now within a couple of degrees of tdc). Once you have tdc - based on the engine you can set wires/dizzy/rotor position and get a startable setting. There's other ways to find tdc - this one has worked well for me with small block ford motors - you can also find tdc removing a valve cover and watching valves open and close - both valves closed on the compression stroke should be at tdc or very close.


Mimic
Landon Brown
Victoria, B.C.
(8 posts)

Registered:
10/07/2008 10:11PM

Main British Car:
1976 MGB (Or what is left of one) Buick 215

Re: Engine Timing?
Posted by: Mimic
Date: October 08, 2008 03:35PM

Okay well my camera just decided that when it needed to be used, it wouldn't get along with the PC. I think they are having a fight. However, I looked for some sort of number on the engine, and the best I could do was I found a number on the engine before the transmisssion. Well I found two, but I took the longer one that I could read. (The other was fairly faded) "43000776" ??
Also - should I take out all the plugs or just the number one, when looking for TDC. And do I turn the engine over manually or with the starter? If manually.. How? @_@ -- Thanks again!


Moderator
Curtis Jacobson
Portland Oregon
(4576 posts)

Registered:
10/12/2007 02:16AM

Main British Car:
71 MGBGT, Buick 215

authors avatar
Re: Engine Timing?
Posted by: Moderator
Date: October 08, 2008 05:10PM

It's a pity the camera isn't working out, because with very little practice it's usually pretty easy to tell Buick, Olds, Rover, Ford, and Chevy V8's apart visually, and then secondly to figure out age and displacement.

I'd bet you have a Buick, Olds, or Rover powered car because those conversions are still the most commonly found. You can verify that by checking that both engine block and heads are aluminum.

The Olds cylinder heads are quite different from Buick and Rover, so one quick glance at the valve covers would tell us if it's an Olds 215. (They stick out at a distinctive angle.) Have a look in the photo gallery...

One easy way to tell a Buick from a Rover is that the exterior surfaces of the castings are quite different. Buick (and Olds) used metal dies for the OUTSIDE surfaces of the casting, so the GM engines have a much smoother surface finish compared to Rover. As a practical matter, Rover-conversions very often have cast valve covers instead of stamped steel, and for that matter they more often have aftermarket (Edelbrock or Offenhouser) intake manifolds. Other features are different if you have an eye for spotting them... the distributor, pulleys, starter, etc. HAVE A LOOK AT THE MG PHOTO GALLERY!!!

Here's an article that will help you tell specific Buick and Olds 215's apart by engine numbers:
[www.britishv8.org]
(This article is important because it will help you determine which compression ratio your engine has - probably.)

There's also the germ of an article on Rover ID numbers - with great photos - here on the message board. Try the search function... Unfortunately, completing that article is on the back-burner because about 50 other articles came along and distracted me. Notice that some of the Rover engines had their compression ratio marked next to the ID number. (so convenient!)

Here are three articles that will help you better appreciate these engines, their features, their history, etc.
[www.britishv8.org]
[www.britishv8.org]
[www.britishv8.org]

Are you really sure the timing marks are worn away? Generally, the timing mark on the harmonic balancer should be cut pretty deeply in, as though with a hacksaw, and it usually/generally corresponds to marks cast into a boss on the timing cover. Something like this:

http://www.britishv8.org/Articles/Images-V16-2/Buick-Aluminum-Engine-10.jpg

There are exceptions though - especially if the car's builder mixed and matched parts. (The Buick V6 front cover fits on the V8, for example, but it doesn't have timing marks in the usual place.)


Mimic
Landon Brown
Victoria, B.C.
(8 posts)

Registered:
10/07/2008 10:11PM

Main British Car:
1976 MGB (Or what is left of one) Buick 215

Re: Engine Timing?
Posted by: Mimic
Date: October 08, 2008 07:00PM

I'm still fighting the camera, but there is a funny piece of metal that comes out off the engine and floats over the 2nd spinny wheel thing. However there are no marks on the wheel itself. Unless there is just ONE, somewhere. However at a first or second glance. There is just the funny floating arrow. However, will return with pictures. Just wait!

[edit] Okay here is the overview of this disaster.
08-10-08_1652.jpg You get a good luck at the whole thing.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/08/2008 11:52PM by Mimic.


Mimic
Landon Brown
Victoria, B.C.
(8 posts)

Registered:
10/07/2008 10:11PM

Main British Car:
1976 MGB (Or what is left of one) Buick 215

Re: Engine Timing?
Posted by: Mimic
Date: October 08, 2008 08:02PM

Okay so, as shown below. This is the 'engine' of this little monster. And the 'timing mark' ~ish type thing. I'm assuming is for timing?
08-10-08_1653.jpg - This is that timing mark 'fin' or something.
08-10-08_1655.jpg - This is on the back of the engine, right before the transmission is bolted on. You can see the divsion.
08-10-08_1656.jpg - This is a broader picture of the back.


t.lay
Tom Lay
Grayslake, IL
(93 posts)

Registered:
05/13/2008 09:53PM

Main British Car:
72 mg b gt

Re: Engine Timing?
Posted by: t.lay
Date: October 08, 2008 11:34PM

definitely bopr motor - others will chime in with more specifics. Recheck the harmonic balancer closely with a good light for any grooves or signs of a timing mark just in case. For spinning the motor - you can have someone bump the starter. If you spin it by hand (long socket on crank bolt - with good size extension) it will be much easier with all plugs out - looks like easy access to pull the valve cover to watch the rockers if it comes to that.

looks like a 1400 series carb (600 cfm?). Looks fairly new as do the coil, dizzy cap and wires (your addition?). If things were already set up, I would be inclined to check other stuff first before timing - like fuel supply, ignition power, spark. If not, once you're at tdc - set dizzy with rotor pointing at the #1 contact on the cap (at least on fords, dizzy orientation is sort of a given with the vacuum unit - when you install dizzy - where the rotor points is where #1 wire goes, then follow firing order for rest of wires - ford rotor rotates counterclockwise). My experience is with ford motors - so hopefully some rover motor experts will chime in with more specific info for you and correct anything I said that doesn't hold for bopr engines.



BlownMGB-V8
Jim Blackwood
9406 Gunpowder Rd., Florence, KY 41042
(6468 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 12:59PM

Main British Car:
1971 MGB Blown,Injected,Intercooled Buick 340/AA80E/JagIRS

authors avatar
Re: Engine Timing?
Posted by: BlownMGB-V8
Date: October 09, 2008 02:34PM

Looks like a JWR intake, a decent choice. That plus the MG valvecovers (a somewhat scarce and expensive item) leads me to suspect that the builder was interested in using quality parts in the build. It uses the Buick/Rover style heads and as far as I can tell from the photos it appears to be a die-cast block. That would indicate a Buick 215. The front cover, going on the angle of the oil filter take off fitting should be the "Metric" cover, as used on the V6's which might explain the tin timing pointer. I don't recognize the damper.

Suggest you remove #1 plug, put your finger in the hole and manually rotate the engine (should be able to do that with the fan if it has one, or by rolling the car in gear with the key turned OFF if not). It will puff air out. Where it stops put a mark on your damper and set your points to open there. That should be good enough to start.

Once it is running at idle, advance the distributor until it runs as fast as it's going to and then back it off a bit and snug it down. Take a test drive and if it pings, coughs or sneezes back it off some more. If it has no power try advancing it. That will at least get you going.

Jim


Mimic
Landon Brown
Victoria, B.C.
(8 posts)

Registered:
10/07/2008 10:11PM

Main British Car:
1976 MGB (Or what is left of one) Buick 215

Re: Engine Timing?
Posted by: Mimic
Date: October 10, 2008 12:48AM

The carb was added and is 600cfm, Edel 1406. Is too much? Also the dizzy cap, wires, and coil were my addition but it wasn't timed or set up so its in 'experiment mode' I call it. >_>. It does RUN, just kind of pingy, or rattly, and maybe a bit shakey. But i'm not sure the pinging is actually pinging or just something gone wierd somewhere. It sounds like if someone dragged a couple popcans on strings down the sidewalk, where they go all clang clang, or if someone hit a metal block with a chisel and hammer, or something along those lines. What am I supposed to point that vacuum towards? I didnt do the plugs because I dont know what kind of plugs to get for it. But I did replace the coil and.. cap and spinner thing. I have a points replacement thing too but I still have to look up the gap. If you can see the vacuum, its pointing towards the rad hose, or the strange arm on the distributor, I assume this is, somewhere close. What is a damper? =| I'll try to work it out on the weekend with a test drive, I just was a bit worried with the strange noises at idle.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/10/2008 01:00AM by Mimic.


t.lay
Tom Lay
Grayslake, IL
(93 posts)

Registered:
05/13/2008 09:53PM

Main British Car:
72 mg b gt

Re: Engine Timing?
Posted by: t.lay
Date: October 10, 2008 01:33AM

Sounds like you're not horribly far out on the timing front - it's running. Is the noise more of a backfire/detonation thing or a deeper knocking sound? If tweaking the timing doesn't smooth it out, with an unknown history, I would want to drop the oil pan and take a peak for metal bits and check out bearings - especially if it's a deeper sound. You can adjust timing loosening the dizzy hold down bolt and rotate it a few degrees while running - try out either direction and see what the effects are.


Moderator
Curtis Jacobson
Portland Oregon
(4576 posts)

Registered:
10/12/2007 02:16AM

Main British Car:
71 MGBGT, Buick 215

authors avatar
Re: Engine Timing?
Posted by: Moderator
Date: October 10, 2008 03:59AM

I think you'll likely find that your carburetor is too big...

The Edelbrock 1404 (500cfm) carb is the most popular carb for Buick/Rover engine swaps, and even it's technically "too big", but it seems to work well enough for street applications. Really, a 390 (Holley) or 400 cfm (Carter) carb would be better, but although the Edelbrock is a variant of the Carter, they're not making them in sizes smaller than 500cfm.

The "harmonic balancer" (also known as a "damper") is attached to the crankshaft, and subsequently pulleys are attached to it. The pulleys may obscure the fact that it's basically a small flywheel and that the weighted part of it is actually decoupled from the hub by rubber. There's a little more info here: [www.britishv8.org]

Looking at the photos... I'd suspect you have a Rover engine with a few parts swapped over from the Buick parts bin (including, as Jim mentioned, a V6 oil pump.) I can't really tell from the photos, but I think the block looks more like a Rover block. Can you take some more photos?

quote: "I didn't do the plugs because I dont know what kind of plugs to get for it."
That's good news actually... because although the Rover and Buick heads look just alike, they actually require two different spark plugs. As I recall, the Rover head shrouds the plugs more and thus needs a longer plug... VERIFY THIS because my memory isn't too good and besides it might vary between Rover engines (since they made them over many years and since it also seems that you may have a later one such as a 3.9L version.)

There are a lot of old-school tricks for setting up timing. Here's how I've always done it... First, turn the engine over until #1 piston is exactly at top dead center. (I use a socket wrench on the crankshaft/balancer bolt.) I turn the distributor counterclockwise a bit... then, with a spark plug inserted into the number one spark plug wire and with the threads of the spark plug held firmly to something grounded (like my alternator bracket) - and with the ignition turned on - I slowly rotate the distributor clockwise until I see an arc across the spark plug contacts. When I see the arc, I clamp the distributor down. That's usually a pretty good starting point, from which the engine will idle nicely and I can go fetch a timing light. (Or not. I think I drove to Wisconsin and back this year without setting the timing after having the distributor out... I don't actually enjoy tuning engines. Give me some sheetmetal to cut and bend and I'm happier.)


Mimic
Landon Brown
Victoria, B.C.
(8 posts)

Registered:
10/07/2008 10:11PM

Main British Car:
1976 MGB (Or what is left of one) Buick 215

Re: Engine Timing?
Posted by: Mimic
Date: October 10, 2008 09:51PM

Okay, so, in regards to Tom, I tried moving the timing around a bit, there is a mark on the damper for the timing light? Like a white dot, but I feel sketchy about this mark because, well i'm sketchy about the whole car. I can get the dot to line up with the funny tin fin, I aimed it to be just underneath the fin. And so, it runs pretty reasonably, its really hard to tell without the experience I 'spose. But I set the dizzy to one spot, didn't bolt it down, it sounded nice, but i'd work on it the next day, but in the morning it was all clanky again. The only thing I could think of, is when I got the car, the starter was done, so we had to get a new one, the little set of teeth that spin the flywheel were broken and went everywhere, I retrieved was I thought was most of the piece but couldn't really be sure. If there was a small piece of metal inside the bell housing, could that be a suspect? Also, I will try to drop the pan and check it out. But, it doesn't really sound like pinging, just like clanging. When I do adjust the distributor a fair amount of degrees in each direction, maybe 10 or 15, it doesn't make any huge notable difference other than the change in RPM.

So, the block, what kind of pictures are we looking for that would help you identify it better?

Also.. how will I know if the carb is too big? =(


BlownMGB-V8
Jim Blackwood
9406 Gunpowder Rd., Florence, KY 41042
(6468 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 12:59PM

Main British Car:
1971 MGB Blown,Injected,Intercooled Buick 340/AA80E/JagIRS

authors avatar
Re: Engine Timing?
Posted by: BlownMGB-V8
Date: October 11, 2008 12:03AM

If the carb is too big it means you'll have to be careful about flooring the gas pedal because it'll bog if you do it too fast. If it doesn't bog you should be fine. The other symptom is difficulty with getting the idle right. You can probably get by OK with that carb. It should work well with the John Wolfe Racing (JWR) Offy intake, especially if the cam is a bit hotter than stock, which I would suspect it might be with that intake on the engine. Don't start worrying about things that aren't problems until they prove themselves to be so. There's enough to do that you do know about.

It would be smart to do a compression test. As for the clanking, just keep looking, the cause has to be there somewhere. You can use a hose to narrow it down some. Hold it to your ear and run the other end about the engine.

Jim


t.lay
Tom Lay
Grayslake, IL
(93 posts)

Registered:
05/13/2008 09:53PM

Main British Car:
72 mg b gt

Re: Engine Timing?
Posted by: t.lay
Date: October 11, 2008 12:08AM

OK - when you get it running pretty smooth - bolt down the dizzy so you know it's not bouncing around from engine vibration.

On fords there is a sheet metal inspection cover at the bottom of the bellhousing (not sure about yours) - it does sound possible you've got a piece of metal bouncing around in the bellhousing. If there's an inspection cover you can pull off you may be able to take a look for any bits and work them out as well as inspect the teeth on your flywheel ring gear.

If you have a bit of tubing - perhaps 24"ish. Stick one end in your ear (really)- use the other end to move around and isolate/identify more specifically where the rattles/clanks are coming from (that's the cheap version of a mechanic's stethoscope). Careful with moving parts with this. Hopefully this just leads to the bellhousing and a little bit of metal from the old starter bouncing around.

Here's a link for a carb calculator. [www.4secondsflat.com]
Looks like around 400-500 cfm is closer for a 3.5 -3.9 liter (I was guessing at volumetric efficiency for bopr motors - so the calculation could be off a little. You may be able to get smaller jets for the 1406. Too big of a carb/too much fuel delivery can have it bogging down when you put the pedal down.

Hope that helps - and others may have more suggestions for troubleshooting. I'm a little out of my element on the specifics of your engine.

Jim, you beat me to the post button. You're right about not worrying about stuff until it presents itself as an issue.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/11/2008 12:12AM by t.lay.


Mimic
Landon Brown
Victoria, B.C.
(8 posts)

Registered:
10/07/2008 10:11PM

Main British Car:
1976 MGB (Or what is left of one) Buick 215

Re: Engine Timing?
Posted by: Mimic
Date: October 11, 2008 12:30AM

Do you think the pullies... those spinny things in the front - could be too big/small and be making that strange sound? Or is that crazy talk.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/11/2008 12:32AM by Mimic.



t.lay
Tom Lay
Grayslake, IL
(93 posts)

Registered:
05/13/2008 09:53PM

Main British Car:
72 mg b gt

Re: Engine Timing?
Posted by: t.lay
Date: October 11, 2008 12:51AM

Kinda doubt it's the pulleys. The hose trick should help isolate whether the noise is at the front, rear or internal. Noises can be tricky to isolate sometime - the hose or a stethoscope can really help pin down the source.


Moderator
Curtis Jacobson
Portland Oregon
(4576 posts)

Registered:
10/12/2007 02:16AM

Main British Car:
71 MGBGT, Buick 215

authors avatar
Re: Engine Timing?
Posted by: Moderator
Date: October 11, 2008 01:20AM

I don't mean to be critical... but it sounds like random "fixes" are being tried left and right, in lieu of a systematic approach. Some of this is due to the sad history of the car (death, auction, etc.) - but still, maybe it would be best for you to start from scratch and methodically catalog what's really known about the engine. Try to make a list of ALL the components right down to spark plug markings... We can help some with that, but we'll need a whole lot more photos. You should probably keep a log of what's known about the engine's problems, what changes have been tried, and what results were observed.

I'm wondering why a nice, new, and probably too-big carburetor was slapped onto this engine. Was something wrong with the previous carb? A 600cfm carb could probably be made to run "okay" - but probably not without re-jetting and also adjustment of the idle air speed screws. Did the car come to you with a different, smaller carb? Why was the carb changed out? Maybe you should retro-fit the earlier carb? In the long run, I think it's extremely unlikely you're going to want to keep a 600cfm carb on what's probably a 3.9L or smaller engine.

Am I right to understand that you've already swapped-out the starter? How did you get a new starter without knowing what starter you needed? When you were looking at the starter, you probably noticed whether it said "Lucas" (Rover) or "Delco-Remy" (GM) on it, no?

Tell us more about the distributor. Besides loosening the clamp and randomly turning it this way and that, what else has been done with the distributor? Does it have breaker points, and if so what condition do they appear to be in? Has anyone been tinkering around with them already? Do you know if dwell was ever set?

I think it's highly unlikely that the pulleys are a problem. It would surprise me if the pulleys were making a strange sound unless one of them were bent, cracked, or loosely fastened - and you should be able to see that.

re: rubber tubing to help you better isolate a noise... obviously you're just using the tubing as a poor man's stethoscope (like that thing your doctor uses to hear your heartbeat.) Tubing works very well, but for some sounds a solid rod or dowel is better. It's another old timey trick... you put one end of the rod against various hard parts of the engine. The other end of the rod goes against the OUTSIDE of your ear.

Do you know who built this little beast in the first place? Do you know or at least have a feeling whether they got much use out of it, or are you actually sorting it out for the very first time?


t.lay
Tom Lay
Grayslake, IL
(93 posts)

Registered:
05/13/2008 09:53PM

Main British Car:
72 mg b gt

Re: Engine Timing?
Posted by: t.lay
Date: October 11, 2008 02:05AM

If I'm following this correctly, we're idling/running relatively smoothly, but have some noise to identify and correct (less concerned about fine tuning the timing and carb than removing flying metal bits at this point). First task is identifying the location of the noise and ultimately source.


Mimic
Landon Brown
Victoria, B.C.
(8 posts)

Registered:
10/07/2008 10:11PM

Main British Car:
1976 MGB (Or what is left of one) Buick 215

Re: Engine Timing?
Posted by: Mimic
Date: October 11, 2008 03:25PM

Yes okay well, the weekend, will update with progress, but the history, or what is known:

The car has questionable mileage or usage, I doubt it got far, but there are no working gauges. I assume a lot was disconnected in the conversion.
The old carb, a Holley, 390cfm? The person who owned it before me, and attemped to fix it (it orginally had a seized clutch and thats where I started from) But the secondary vacuum didn't work apparently, so it was replaced. The Edelbrock was the 'on-sale' and 'rebuilt' one. I'm no expert but the old Holley had the secondary side of the intake and the bottom of the carb, just coated in black. Very very black. Infinite black. This was grounds enough for the guy to replace it, or so the story is told. =\ I'd personally like to have the smaller one, as this new one came with the old air filter which doesnt fit right because of the fuel hose coming in so high up. -- The distributor. Someone who claims they know what they are doing, figured that because it ran kind of lumpy and bumpy, that it was the ignition system. So we ended up taking out the distributor but it wasn't marked where it went before, but the timing was supposedly off anyways so thats just what happened. The cap, and spinner were replaced, as well as the wires. The distributor does have points but they have not been replaced. This 'other person' may have tinkered with it, but I doubt it. Also, I dont think dwell was ever set. Atleast not anytime recently or in my possession or the last owners. -- The Starter, it was a Lucas, and there is a guy in town who repairs them, he just refitted the old gear and it works like a charm. I just hauled it in and he said, come back tommorow. But it was a Lucas, if that helps out. -- To be honest, all I know about the builder is that he was some sort of country man/farmer and by the looks of it, did the bare minimum to make it work. The car has no carpets, and a lot of the electrical is gone, doesn't work, or is very confusing. Like the blue wire turns into the green wire turns into the black wire and then hooks up to nothing, or something you cant follow. Its a mess. The exhaust /was/ held up by chicken wire and most of the exhaust system is either cracked or something else, is in bad condition. But, it is me attempting to sort it out, i've kind of just been going problem to problem, trying to replace other things while i'm there. -- Someone mentioned an inspection plate, I did take it off but its pretty difficult to see inside, I did look around for a while but I didnt see anything suspicious, like this mystery piece of metal. However i'm going outside now to start it up and 'tube' for this mystery sound. -- Also, do you know what photos you will need? I'm not sure what i'm looking for.

Part II - Returns from the garage..

It is running rather smoothly today. (Well it did untill I went back with a camera) A little cough here or there, but the noise was not located. However from differen't heights and positions around the car, the noise seems to 'sound' from the front, near the damper and other nearby parts. Now, I suppose maybe if something was hitting whatever the culprit is, could the noise go through the engine and just escape at the front? Something else I noticed today, seeing as the car refused to start cold, when I turned it over, and it didnt start, and I released the key, there was little jingle jangle after the starter stopped. Like if you had a whole bunch of little metal balls in one of those bingo cases and turned it over, then stopped, and let them all settle at the bottom. So I decided to video some stuff.

[www.youtube.com] -- Starter rattle.

[www.youtube.com] -- Strange noise or knock.

If you listen closely you can hear that mystery noise. However it is a lot less frequent with the camera on. It knows i'm looking for it. At the very end you can hear it, and at about 2.5seconds, right when it starts. It kind of gets cranky at the end of the video and stumbles to a stop.



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 10/12/2008 07:22PM by Mimic.


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