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tips, technology, tools and techniques related to vehicle driveline components

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Dan Jones
Dan Jones
St. Louis, Missouri
(280 posts)

Registered:
07/21/2008 03:32PM

Main British Car:
1980 Triumph TR8 3.5L Rover V8

Re: Assembled TA Rover cylinders (getting ready for the flow bench)
Posted by: Dan Jones
Date: February 13, 2016 10:34PM

> I read in your post that the engine you are building is a 4.2L.

Yes.

> How much larger displacement does your head porter think would be appropriate?

With 1.94" diameter intake valve, good for a 5 to 5.7L. With a 2.02" valve and further portiing, they could support over 6L.

Dan Jones


Blown v8
Bryan Phipps

(71 posts)

Registered:
03/10/2013 04:52PM

Main British Car:


Re: Assembled TA Rover cylinders (getting ready for the flow bench)
Posted by: Blown v8
Date: February 14, 2016 07:32AM

My heads are being poffesionally ported,he rang me up,wanting to know where I'd bought them,he couldn't stop going on how good they were,and it's been a long time since he'd seen such good quality heads.

Sorry to interrupt your thread Dan,really enjoying your write ups
Bryan


Dan Jones
Dan Jones
St. Louis, Missouri
(280 posts)

Registered:
07/21/2008 03:32PM

Main British Car:
1980 Triumph TR8 3.5L Rover V8

Re: Assembled TA Rover cylinders (getting ready for the flow bench)
Posted by: Dan Jones
Date: February 14, 2016 12:58PM

> My heads are being professionally ported

Let us know how they turn out. The should work really well with your supercharger.

> he couldn't stop going on how good they were,and it's been a long time since he'd seen such good quality heads.

Good to hear.

> Sorry to interrupt your thread Dan,really enjoying your write ups

Feel free to interrupt and add anything you hear back from your head porter.

Dan Jones


Blown v8
Bryan Phipps

(71 posts)

Registered:
03/10/2013 04:52PM

Main British Car:


Re: Assembled TA Rover cylinders (getting ready for the flow bench)
Posted by: Blown v8
Date: February 14, 2016 02:37PM

I've gone with a roller cam,with a good lift,
image.jpg


MGBV8
Carl Floyd
Kingsport, TN
(4511 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 11:32PM

Main British Car:
1979 MGB Buick 215

authors avatar
Re: Assembled TA Rover cylinders (getting ready for the flow bench)
Posted by: MGBV8
Date: February 14, 2016 05:55PM

Wow.


ex-tyke
Graham Creswick
Chatham, Ontario, Canada
(1165 posts)

Registered:
10/25/2007 11:17AM

Main British Car:
1976 MGB Ford 302

authors avatar
Re: Assembled TA Rover cylinders (getting ready for the flow bench)
Posted by: ex-tyke
Date: February 15, 2016 10:19AM

Quote:
WOW

Double WOW!


BlownMGB-V8
Jim Blackwood
9406 Gunpowder Rd., Florence, KY 41042
(6468 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 12:59PM

Main British Car:
1971 MGB Blown,Injected,Intercooled Buick 340/AA80E/JagIRS

authors avatar
Re: Assembled TA Rover cylinders (getting ready for the flow bench)
Posted by: BlownMGB-V8
Date: February 15, 2016 11:49AM

Quite a lot hotter than my cam. (which I felt was about as much as I could run in a daily driver) That looks pretty much like a full race grind to me.

Is it even possible to put 2.02" intake valves in those heads?

Jim



Dan Jones
Dan Jones
St. Louis, Missouri
(280 posts)

Registered:
07/21/2008 03:32PM

Main British Car:
1980 Triumph TR8 3.5L Rover V8

Re: Assembled TA Rover cylinders (getting ready for the flow bench)
Posted by: Dan Jones
Date: February 15, 2016 02:48PM

> I've gone with a roller cam,with a good lift

Are you using the stud mount rockers or the TA shaft mount rockers?

> That looks pretty much like a full race grind to me.

Maybe not. The duration at 0.050" isn't shown on the cam card. Looking at the TA Performance catalog, the slightly larger seat duration 298R lobe has 237 degrees @ 0.050". Woody Cooper runs solid flat tappet cams in the 240 degrees duration @ 0.050" range on some of his street driven 4.9L Rovers and those are generally on a tighter LSA so the overlap is larger than if it were on the 110 LSA of that TA0296R HL grind. Also, solid rollers of a given duration start pulling a little earlier than hydraulic cams of the same duration. That said, small valve heads like the OEM Rover or Buick 215/300 need more overlap (and a tighter LSA) for a given performance level than larger valve heads. Due to the larger valves and higher intake flow, the TA Performance heads should need less duration and a wider LSA than OEM Rover heads on the same displacement engine.

> Is it even possible to put 2.02" intake valves in those heads?

TA Performance says up to 2.02" intake and 1.6" diameter exhaust valves will fit but Bob thought they would require larger seats for the 2.02" intake valves. 2.02" + 1.6" = 3.62" so it's conceivable a 2.02" would fit in a 94mm Rover bore but it might not work any better due to shrouding. Should work for a larger bore block like a 300, though.

Dan Jones


Nexxussian
Erik Johnson
Alaska
(62 posts)

Registered:
04/20/2015 10:32PM

Main British Car:
1974, MGB, Citroen Color Rover V8

Re: Assembled TA Rover cylinders (getting ready for the flow bench)
Posted by: Nexxussian
Date: February 15, 2016 10:14PM

Dan, thank you. :)


Blown v8
Bryan Phipps

(71 posts)

Registered:
03/10/2013 04:52PM

Main British Car:


Re: Assembled TA Rover cylinders (getting ready for the flow bench)
Posted by: Blown v8
Date: February 16, 2016 01:21AM

At present I'm using the stud mounted rockers,
Do you think I should upgrade to the shaft mounted rockers ?


DiDueColpi
Fred Key
West coast - Canada
(1365 posts)

Registered:
05/14/2010 03:06AM

Main British Car:
I really thought that I'd be an action figure by now!

authors avatar
Re: Assembled TA Rover cylinders (getting ready for the flow bench)
Posted by: DiDueColpi
Date: February 16, 2016 01:42AM

You said it yourself, "upgrade".
The studs are costing you power.

Cheers
Fred


BlownMGB-V8
Jim Blackwood
9406 Gunpowder Rd., Florence, KY 41042
(6468 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 12:59PM

Main British Car:
1971 MGB Blown,Injected,Intercooled Buick 340/AA80E/JagIRS

authors avatar
Re: Assembled TA Rover cylinders (getting ready for the flow bench)
Posted by: BlownMGB-V8
Date: February 16, 2016 12:35PM

Dan, you could be right on the duration but I was also looking at the lift. I know some cams go up over .700 but .650 is a whole lot of lift on a street cam, and is asking quite a lot of the springs if you want long term durability. IMO.

Jim


Dan Jones
Dan Jones
St. Louis, Missouri
(280 posts)

Registered:
07/21/2008 03:32PM

Main British Car:
1980 Triumph TR8 3.5L Rover V8

Re: Assembled TA Rover cylinders (getting ready for the flow bench)
Posted by: Dan Jones
Date: February 16, 2016 05:57PM

> Do you think I should upgrade to the shaft mounted rockers ?

I'm going with the stud mounted rockers but I won't be running the spring pressure that you will be running. Shaft mounted rockers earn their keep on bigger solid roller valve springs and higher RPM.

> I know some cams go up over .700 but .650 is a whole lot of lift on a street cam

Agreed. The HL on the TA part number stands for "High Lift". Given the small base circle of the Buick/Rover cams, that is a bunch of lobe lift. Good springs seem to hold up longer these days and you can check them on the car but the valve guide life with the big lift suffers. You really want to get the valve train geometry spot on.

Dan Jones


Dan Jones
Dan Jones
St. Louis, Missouri
(280 posts)

Registered:
07/21/2008 03:32PM

Main British Car:
1980 Triumph TR8 3.5L Rover V8

Re: Assembled TA Rover cylinders (getting ready for the flow bench)
Posted by: Dan Jones
Date: February 16, 2016 06:08PM

Picked up the ported TA Rover heads today. Heads were ported by Bob Stiegemeier of Stiegemeier Porting Service (http://stiegemeier.com/) in St. Charles, Missouri and were tested at a 28" pressure drop on a SuperFlow 600 flow bench. Intake ports were flowed with a clayed radius around the intake port. No pipe was used on the exhaust except for one test with the stock 4.6L Rover head (noted below). Flow is in cubic feet per minute (CFM) and lift is in inches. Intake valve diameter is 1.94" and exhaust diameter is 1.6". Note that the heads were purchased assembled and Bob worked around the existing valve job. For my application, only minor work was required on the intake side so most of the effort was concentrated on the exhaust. Heads were flowed unported, ported and ported with a 30 degree back cut on the intake valves. Columns are as follow:

1 = out of box intake ports
2 = ported intake, no back cut on intake valves
3 = ported intake, 30 degree back cut on intake valves
4 = out-of-box exhaust ports, no pipe stub
5 = ported exhaust, no back cut on exhaust valves, no pipe stub

I'll try inserting periods to keep the forum software from screwing up the column spacing:

Valve....1........2.........3........4........5
Lift.....1.94....1.94....1.94...1.60...1.60
(Inch)..CFM..CFM..CFM..CFM..CFM
0.100 067.7 076.8 078.3 047.9 063.8
0.200 105.4 120.4 129.4 070.2 108.5
0.300 143.0 173.1 185.1 102.1 146.7
0.350 164.0 198.7 206.2 114.9 -------
0.400 185.1 224.2 225.8 126.0 177.0
0.500 220.9 255.9 251.3 137.2 189.8
0.600 225.8 ------- 252.8 140.4 199.4

Bob noted the flow for the ported intake with back-cut valves was for the first one he did. He got closer to 260 CFM peak on subsequent valves. He believes he can do better if starting with heads without a valve job. The exhaust port was sized for a 1 5/8" OD header primary (the larger of the two available tri-y headers for the Triumph TR8). For reference, here's what my ported 1964 Buick 300 cylinder heads flowed with 1.775" intake and 1.5" exhaust valves:

Lift 1.775 1.5
0.100 066 047
0.200 129 104
0.300 174 130
0.350 187 139
0.400 191 146
0.500 196 152
0.600 200 153

I had also previously flowed a stock Buick 300 head with 1.625" intake and 1.312" exhaust valves at 154 CFM intake and 116 CFM exhaust. The unported Rover 4.6L head flowed:

Lift 1.575 1.350
0.100 060.2 057.4
0.200 105.4 092.5
0.300 132.4 103.7
0.350 135.5 106.9
0.400 135.5 106.9 (114.8 with pipe stub)

The ported TA Rover heads flow nearly double the stock Rover 4.6L heads! I dug up some small block Ford AFR 165 head flow numbers (CNC ported but earlier version with the 11/32" diameter valves) from a magazine article (Mustang 5.0 magazine, November, 2000, "Having our Heads Examined"):

AFR 165 1.9 1.6
0.100 060 051
0.200 123 108
0.300 176 149
0.400 210 174
0.500 232 184
0.600 232 188

Note the ported Rover TA heads outflow the highly regarded AFR 165 heads (best of the smaller valve size, stock port location, SBF heads).

Bob clearanced the chambers to around 42cc then milled them 0.020" to get them to 37cc. He also installed thin wall bronze sleeves in the pushrod holes. The intake valves had sharp edges around the keepers and damaged some of the valve stem seals during dis-assembly so he smoothed the sharp edges and installed new seals. The intake valves (appear to be SI brand) were out of round so Bob cut them to get them round. The exhaust (Ferrea) were round and needed no adjustment. The intake manifold had a low spot on one of the flanges that he welded up and milled back down. The intake and heads were then port matched on the block. He tested the springs with and without the inner springs. With the inners in place, they are 170 lbs on the seat and 400 lbs @ 0.550" lift. With the inners removed, they are 120 lbs on the seat and 280 lbs @ 0.550". Bob said he can adjust the seat pressure with offset keepers once I decided on the cam. He'd really like to see me run a solid flat tappet cam with EDM lifters and beehive springs and spin the engine to 8000 RPM. Given the intake port size, he thought I'd want to run a narrower lobe separation angle than the intake valve diameter (to cubic inches ratio) might suggest with a bunch of initial timing and a short advance curve. He also suggested 11:1 compression and thought EFI would work better than a carb with the large intake ports. Given the very strong exhaust port, he thought a single pattern cam would be the way to go. He mentioned that while the exhaust would flow even more with a pipe stub, adding a full length header usually gets it back to what the naked exhaust port flows so he likes to flow them without a pipe stub. Bob was really jazzed about the TA heads and lightweight Rover V8. He noted there was room on the cylinder head to raise the roof a 1/2" and thought that raising the roof, filling the floor and use a larger intake valve, he could get well over 320 CFM out of the intake ports.

Photos to follow later this week or weekend.

Dan Jones


BlownMGB-V8
Jim Blackwood
9406 Gunpowder Rd., Florence, KY 41042
(6468 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 12:59PM

Main British Car:
1971 MGB Blown,Injected,Intercooled Buick 340/AA80E/JagIRS

authors avatar
Re: Assembled TA Rover cylinders (getting ready for the flow bench)
Posted by: BlownMGB-V8
Date: February 16, 2016 06:19PM

Excellent results Dan.

As expected, simply slapping on an out-of-thebox set of heads should give a noticeable improvement. With porting it is a huge boost.

Jim



crashbash
david bash
st. charles
(215 posts)

Registered:
01/28/2008 10:53AM

Main British Car:
1979 MGB Rdst V8 project, 1968 MGC GT, 1969 MGB Rd olds 215

Re: Assembled TA Rover cylinders (getting ready for the flow bench)
Posted by: crashbash
Date: February 18, 2016 08:56PM

Dan, so what kind of H P does this let you predict on say a 5L engine build? Are any of the TR8 race people going to be allowed to use these heads? Maybe your TR8 on the road this summer? bash!


roverman
Art Gertz
Winchester, CA.
(3188 posts)

Registered:
04/24/2009 11:02AM

Main British Car:
74' Jensen Healy, 79 Huff. GT 1, 74 MGB Lotus 907,2L

Re: Assembled TA Rover cylinders (getting ready for the flow bench)
Posted by: roverman
Date: February 20, 2016 04:04PM

Any various "shapes" of spark plugs tries ? Indexed ? Intake valve is solid ? Hollow SS Ferrea will give you XX more rpm ? Pida tube smoke testing ? Thanks for all the info.


Dan Jones
Dan Jones
St. Louis, Missouri
(280 posts)

Registered:
07/21/2008 03:32PM

Main British Car:
1980 Triumph TR8 3.5L Rover V8

Re: Assembled TA Rover cylinders (getting ready for the flow bench)
Posted by: Dan Jones
Date: February 21, 2016 08:31PM

> Dan, so what kind of H P does this let you predict on say a 5L engine build?

See below. These are Dynomation predictions for an 11:1 compression, 5.0L Rover (3.7" bore by 3.5" stroke), Willpower single plane intake, 700 CFM carb, 1 5/8" long tube headers, 0.565"/0.535" lift hydraulic roller cam optimized for 4000 to 7000 RPM best average. The first is for a "Standard Flow" single plane intake and the second is for a "high flow" single plane. Given the low profile of the usual Rover single planes (Willpower, Harcourt, Huffaker), they are probably somewhere in between but I won't know until I gather some real dyno data. As a point of reference, Woody built an 11:1 compression hydraulic roller 4.9L Rover with Jon Eales max effort ported Rover heads and Harcourt single plane and the engine made 391 HP on the dyno. Top line assumes ported TA Rover heads (1.94"/1.6"). Bottom line assumes ported Buick 300 heads (1.775"/1.5"). Note: The smaller valves and ports of the Buick 300 heads required approximately 10 degrees more overlap in the cam.

http://i1127.photobucket.com/albums/l621/danielcjones2/Buick%20Olds%20Rover%20Aluminum%20V8/Rover_50L_head_comparison_std_flow_zpsm1izktn7.jpg

http://i1127.photobucket.com/albums/l621/danielcjones2/Buick%20Olds%20Rover%20Aluminum%20V8/Rover_50L_head_comparison_high_flow_zpsoqakbkmm.jpg

The simulation suggests perhaps as much as 50 HP over the ported Buick 300 heads which are already worth a bunch more power than the unported Buick or Rover heads.

> Are any of the TR8 race people going to be allowed to use these heads?

I dunno.

> Maybe your TR8 on the road this summer? bash!

Plan is to take two weeks off at the end of March to finish the Pantera then start on the Rover stuff. Need to decide if I want to put together a temporary engine for the TR8 while we play on the dyno or wait until one of the engines is finished.

Decisions, decisions...
Dan Jones


Dan Jones
Dan Jones
St. Louis, Missouri
(280 posts)

Registered:
07/21/2008 03:32PM

Main British Car:
1980 Triumph TR8 3.5L Rover V8

Re: Assembled TA Rover cylinders (getting ready for the flow bench)
Posted by: Dan Jones
Date: February 21, 2016 08:43PM

> Any various "shapes" of spark plugs tries ?

No but we did need to find a longer reach plug to get the electrode out of the spark plug hole.

> Indexed ?

No. When I think of indexing, it's for the combustion event but now that you mention it changing the orientation to be parallel insead of perpendicualr to the flow would have a minor effect on flow

> Intake valve is solid?

Yes, the intake and exhaust valves supplied with the assembled TA Rover heads are solid. I discussed hollow valves with Bob and he had a lost an engine when a hollow stem valve failed but that engine had a solid roller cam. Also, the Crower retainers are chrome-moly steel. I may substitute titanium retainers and maybe look into beehive springs depending upon the cam selection.

> Hollow SS Ferrea will give you XX more rpm ?

That's the claim. They are quite expensive though.

> Pida tube smoke testing ?

Pitot tube? No we didn't do any smoke testing or swirl. I'll have McLain swirl test the heads and also test with the intake bolted to the head like I did with the Buick 300 heads.

> Thanks for all the info.

You're welcome. BTW, did you ever follow up with Vizard on your heads? Week before last, I sent him a couple of SBF intake manifolds to test for his upcoming book. I may have him run my Rover data through his cos-cam program.

Dan Jones


tr8todd
Todd Kishbach

(390 posts)

Registered:
12/04/2009 07:42AM

Main British Car:


Re: Assembled TA Rover cylinders (getting ready for the flow bench)
Posted by: tr8todd
Date: February 22, 2016 08:29PM

My experience with really big cams in the Rover on street driven cars is not good. Seen several different engine builds where the cylinders wash down with gas and the rings never properly seat. By the time your willing to admit something is wrong, the cylinder walls are trashed and the pistons look like they have been to war. Last one I saw was torn down after around 600 miles. Needed a new block and pistons, not to mention a different cam. Plan on installing a vacuum pump if you go big. You will need it just to keep the gaskets, and dipstick from popping out from all the crankcase pressure.
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