Engine and Transmission Tech

tips, technology, tools and techniques related to vehicle driveline components

Go to Thread: PreviousNext
Go to: Forum ListMessage ListNew TopicLog In
Goto Page: Previous12345Next
Current Page: 4 of 5


BlownMGB-V8
Jim Blackwood
9406 Gunpowder Rd., Florence, KY 41042
(6468 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 12:59PM

Main British Car:
1971 MGB Blown,Injected,Intercooled Buick 340/AA80E/JagIRS

authors avatar
Re: Assembled TA Rover cylinders (getting ready for the flow bench)
Posted by: BlownMGB-V8
Date: May 17, 2016 10:29AM

Just curious Dan, did those heads come direct from TA or through TRS? (Wondering if their logo is a part of shared development costs.)

I like what you've done with the exhaust ports. That's always been a weakness with Buick heads.

Jim


roverman
Art Gertz
Winchester, CA.
(3188 posts)

Registered:
04/24/2009 11:02AM

Main British Car:
74' Jensen Healy, 79 Huff. GT 1, 74 MGB Lotus 907,2L

Re: Assembled TA Rover cylinders (getting ready for the flow bench)
Posted by: roverman
Date: May 17, 2016 01:51PM

Nice job on the porting/chambers. Got ported cc's of int./exh. ? Cheers, Art.


Dan Jones
Dan Jones
St. Louis, Missouri
(280 posts)

Registered:
07/21/2008 03:32PM

Main British Car:
1980 Triumph TR8 3.5L Rover V8

Re: Assembled TA Rover cylinders (getting ready for the flow bench)
Posted by: Dan Jones
Date: May 17, 2016 03:11PM

> What difference does indexing plugs make with heads like these vs less precisely engineered stock heads? Does indexing plugs make much of a difference anyways?

I've never tested indexing on a dyno. Joe Sherman says he has never seen any power increase from indexing but did say he's seen a 5 HP increase from long reach plugs.

> did those heads come direct from TA or through TRS? (Wondering if their logo is a part of shared development costs.)

Directly from TA.

> I like what you've done with the exhaust ports. That's always been a weakness with Buick heads.

200 CFM on the exhaust is quite a lot for the cubic inches. I'll most likely go with a single pattern cam.

> Got ported cc's of int./exh.

I've not measured the runner volumes but can add it to my list. In general, I use runner length and minimum/maximum cross-sectional areas instead of runner volume. Bob clearanced the combustion chambers to around 42cc then milled them 0.020" to get them to 37cc.

The ported OEM Rover heads off of the Rover 5.0L look pretty good. They are based upon 3.9L casting and have had the chambers welded to 23 ccs. I'm going to get them flow benched soon and will post some pictures later.

Dan Jones


BlownMGB-V8
Jim Blackwood
9406 Gunpowder Rd., Florence, KY 41042
(6468 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 12:59PM

Main British Car:
1971 MGB Blown,Injected,Intercooled Buick 340/AA80E/JagIRS

authors avatar
Re: Assembled TA Rover cylinders (getting ready for the flow bench)
Posted by: BlownMGB-V8
Date: May 17, 2016 04:19PM

>Direct from TA

I suspected as much. This seems to confirm my early suspicion that TRS subsidized the development of these heads, also buying all or most of the first production run as part of the deal. Certainly a valid way to conduct business, hopefully TRS managed to recoup their investment. It's fortunate for us (and TA of course) that the heads can be bought directly at a price consistent with their other offerings. I am a bit surprised however, that their website did not list them as aftermarket heads for the 300 and 340 Buick engines. Most enthusiasts would figure this out, but that probably lost them a few sales.

Jim


Nexxussian
Erik Johnson
Alaska
(62 posts)

Registered:
04/20/2015 10:32PM

Main British Car:
1974, MGB, Citroen Color Rover V8

Re: Assembled TA Rover cylinders (getting ready for the flow bench)
Posted by: Nexxussian
Date: May 18, 2016 01:01AM

Jim, I got to hold one of the machined bare castings at TA in Phoenix (while standing next to a pallet of them :D ).

In speaking with them, I gather TRS committed to buy enough of them justify the investment in the tooling, casting and developing the CNC code for the basic machining (costs I can think of off the top of my head).


BlownMGB-V8
Jim Blackwood
9406 Gunpowder Rd., Florence, KY 41042
(6468 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 12:59PM

Main British Car:
1971 MGB Blown,Injected,Intercooled Buick 340/AA80E/JagIRS

authors avatar
Re: Assembled TA Rover cylinders (getting ready for the flow bench)
Posted by: BlownMGB-V8
Date: May 18, 2016 10:53AM

Which explains why the Rover heads moved ahead of the Buick 350 heads and intake projects, as a few of us thought at the time. There is no such incentive for either a 300 or 340 intake, and the two markets are spit from each other as well (340 in Buick-land and 300 in MG-land) so I'm pretty confident we will never see an aftermarket intake from TA for either of these engines unless they just run out of other things to do. They are currently back to developing the 350 parts, which we will never use here due to the external engine size, despite ready availability of many cheap engines and good durability. We have better choices.

But the Rover heads represent a potent equalizer in the HP race. You put those on a 300 block at 300 or 350 cu.in. with good pistons and a relatively hot cam, combined with RV8 headers and a decent exhaust and you can make some real power. Dish in some power adders like nitrous or boost and now the SBF's weaker block becomes the limiting factor, as some of the SBB engines have been making reliable power at the 700 hp level.

Yes, the heads are expensive. But so is a 302 conversion kit. I think the cost is basically comparable, so this is a chance to level the field once again between the two brands.

Dan, how would you compare the potential of the TA heads against the more popular brands of 302 heads? You use both, I'm sure your opinion will be essentially unbiased.

Jim


Dan Jones
Dan Jones
St. Louis, Missouri
(280 posts)

Registered:
07/21/2008 03:32PM

Main British Car:
1980 Triumph TR8 3.5L Rover V8

Re: Assembled TA Rover cylinders (getting ready for the flow bench)
Posted by: Dan Jones
Date: May 18, 2016 02:08PM

> Dan, how would you compare the potential of the TA heads against the more popular brands of 302 heads? You use both, I'm sure your opinion will be essentially unbiased.

The TA heads have quite good potential and can rival similar valve size SBF heads. Exhaust is (after the porting that mine received) likely better than most SBF heads. There are many SBF heads with various combustion chamber volumes, spring packages, valve diameters and minimum cross-sectional areas so it's easier to match a head against an engine with a particular displacement and RPM range but I think the bigger discriminator are the supporting parts. The SBF benefits from having several excellent intake manifolds, larger base circle cams, larger diameter lifters, larger rocker ratios, etc. Some of the better flowing SBF heads like the AFR 165 have moved to valves with smaller 8mm stems which could also be applied to the TA heads.

Dan Jones



MGBV8
Carl Floyd
Kingsport, TN
(4511 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 11:32PM

Main British Car:
1979 MGB Buick 215

authors avatar
Re: Assembled TA Rover cylinders (getting ready for the flow bench)
Posted by: MGBV8
Date: June 06, 2016 09:04PM

Dan,

Have you measured the actual stroke of your 4.2 crankshaft? Kevin Jackson (castlesid) said his was less than 3.03. In fact, he stated that his Land Rover data sheet lists the range as 76.222-76.759mm. Kinda messes with the calculations, a bit.

I am very interested in your build. I am doing a very low budget version. :) I have two 3.9 Rovers in my garage. One is a complete engine, the other is a crank, block, rods, & heads, plus a set of late 4.0 heads with springs for the Crower 50232 that I bought many years ago. Thanks to Glenn Towery, I also have a 4.2L crank I plan to use, along with an Edelbrock manifold & a NASCAR Holley 390 for autox.

Quench. I have been playing with various piston & rod length choices trying to find a good combination with good quench & reasonable compression with my late Rover heads. Doesn't seem possible. Then i look at the Rover heads & wonder why I am even worrying about quench. Quench, what quench? These things are nothing like SBC.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/07/2016 01:04PM by MGBV8.


ddelong1
Doug DeLong

(25 posts)

Registered:
02/06/2011 08:34AM

Main British Car:


Re: Assembled TA Rover cylinders (getting ready for the flow bench)
Posted by: ddelong1
Date: June 07, 2016 11:48PM

I'm a bit late to this party but glad I found this thread. I'm building a 4.0L with TA heads for an MGB V8 racecar. My heads are box-stock as received from TA and I just them put on a flow bench:
Lift     Int     Exh
.100   65.2   56.1
.200   113.8  84.1
.300   161    110
.400   198.2  126.6
.500   230.7  136.5
.600   242.1  141
.700   240.3   143.5

Springs are TA1125AL offerings, 145lbs closed pressure and 325 open. I'm using the stud mount rocker setup and Crower roller rockers. I've got a Willpower intake being ported now to match the heads and do some cleanup in the plenum, it appears there was core shift during casting so it's a little off center. I'll post some photos when I have the intake back. My short block has custom forged pistons for ~12:1 compression and I'm running a Crower Cam, grind 50305 (INT/EXH - Dur @ .050” Lift: 256°/262° RR: 1.6/1.6 Gross Lift: .536”/.549” LSA: 108° RPM: 3000 to 6500 Redline: 7500).

Dan - do you happen to know what water neck fits the Willpower intake? I haven't bought that yet and am not sure what fits, I was hoping for a small block chevy piece to bolt on. Also, can you tell me what plug you ended up choosing?


minorv8
Jukka Harkola

(268 posts)

Registered:
04/08/2009 06:50AM

Main British Car:
Morris Minor Rover V8

Re: Assembled TA Rover cylinders (getting ready for the flow bench)
Posted by: minorv8
Date: June 08, 2016 02:38AM

If a water neck is the same thing as thermostat housing I used a factory Rover V8 EFi thermostat housing on my Willpower manifold.


BlownMGB-V8
Jim Blackwood
9406 Gunpowder Rd., Florence, KY 41042
(6468 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 12:59PM

Main British Car:
1971 MGB Blown,Injected,Intercooled Buick 340/AA80E/JagIRS

authors avatar
Re: Assembled TA Rover cylinders (getting ready for the flow bench)
Posted by: BlownMGB-V8
Date: June 08, 2016 09:19AM

Looks like the TA heads really benefit a lot from exhaust porting in particular. I'm glad to see that. Maybe a set of TA heads are in my future at some point.

Jim


roverman
Art Gertz
Winchester, CA.
(3188 posts)

Registered:
04/24/2009 11:02AM

Main British Car:
74' Jensen Healy, 79 Huff. GT 1, 74 MGB Lotus 907,2L

Re: Assembled TA Rover cylinders (getting ready for the flow bench)
Posted by: roverman
Date: June 08, 2016 11:08AM

Doug, Break-in of that cam, with those springs, will be critical ! Can't run a roller ? Good Luck, roverman.


MGBV8
Carl Floyd
Kingsport, TN
(4511 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 11:32PM

Main British Car:
1979 MGB Buick 215

authors avatar
Re: Assembled TA Rover cylinders (getting ready for the flow bench)
Posted by: MGBV8
Date: June 08, 2016 11:26AM

Remove the inner spring for cam break-in.


Dan Jones
Dan Jones
St. Louis, Missouri
(280 posts)

Registered:
07/21/2008 03:32PM

Main British Car:
1980 Triumph TR8 3.5L Rover V8

Re: Assembled TA Rover cylinders (getting ready for the flow bench)
Posted by: Dan Jones
Date: June 08, 2016 05:42PM

> Have you measured the actual stroke of your 4.2 crankshaft?

I have not. The new-old-stock 4.2L is still assembled and wrapped in plastic. However, the high RPM 4.2L is disassembled so I could check that crankshaft.

> Kevin Jackson (castlesid) said his was less than 3.03.

I can believe that. Also, the deck height can vary.

> I am very interested in your build. I am doing a very low budget version.

Is that a low budget version of my low budget 4.2L or my high RPM 4.2L?

> along with an Edelbrock manifold & a NASCAR Holley 390 for autox.

Have you used the NASCAR Holley 390 before? I've wondered how well those would work. They are optimized for much larger displacement engines that use the carb as a restriction. I'd be surprised if the tricky bits of the calibration (bleeds, PVCRs, etc.) are even in the ballpark for a Rover V8.

> Quench. I have been playing with various piston & rod length choices trying to find a good combination with good quench & reasonable compression with my late Rover heads.

You're probably looking at custom pistons. I've got a request for a quote for forged pistons but haven't heard back on price or lead time.

> Quench, what quench? These things are nothing like SBC.

My ported Rover 3.9L heads have had the chambers welded up to 23 ccs and have a distinct quench pad. Likewise the ported TA Performance Rover heads have a quench chamber. A friend is looking to have his ported 300 heads welded up as well. With unmodified Rover combustion chambers, it looks like a circular dish with a flush outer perimeter providing quench from 360 degrees around would be as good as you could do.

Dan


Dan Jones
Dan Jones
St. Louis, Missouri
(280 posts)

Registered:
07/21/2008 03:32PM

Main British Car:
1980 Triumph TR8 3.5L Rover V8

Re: Assembled TA Rover cylinders (getting ready for the flow bench)
Posted by: Dan Jones
Date: June 08, 2016 05:54PM

> Springs are TA1125AL offerings, 145lbs closed pressure and 325 open.

That's more spring pressure than I'm comfortable using on a flat tappet cam these days. If your heads came with steel retainers you might consider offset titanium retainers to provide a bit less pressure.

> I'm using the stud mount rocker setup and Crower roller rockers.

What ratio did you go with? TA recommended 1.65:1 ratio.

> Dan - do you happen to know what water neck fits the Willpower intake?

I was told it takes a small block Chevy water neck but have not confirmed. I also need the fuel injection rails.

> Also, can you tell me what plug you ended up choosing?

I haven't chosen plugs yet. I still need to measure the reach required. Might be worth a call to TA and see what they recommend.

Dan Jones



ddelong1
Doug DeLong

(25 posts)

Registered:
02/06/2011 08:34AM

Main British Car:


Re: Assembled TA Rover cylinders (getting ready for the flow bench)
Posted by: ddelong1
Date: June 08, 2016 07:07PM

Thanks for the comments all. I do plan to break the engine in without the inner springs in, just thought I'd give the normal specs for reference. It's a lot of cam/spring for a solid tappet, but the roller conversion was out of my budget. I'll be keeping a close eye on things and this engine won't accumulate a ton of hours being a race engine before freshening up so hopefully all goes well.

For rockers I'm using Comp Cams Ultra Pro Magnum 1.6 ratio units, they are reasonably priced and have a good design in terms of stiffness. I've got a small block Chevy water neck due in from Summit today, will report back when I check the fit on it to the Willpower manifold. Same goes for the plugs, I was planning to talk with TA so will share what I learn from them.

A comment on the 390 Holley - I sourced one from Keith Dorton (circle track builder) which he put together with some smart mods based on what they can (or sometimes can't) do per the rules. They NASCAR version essentially uses the carb as a restrictor in some classes but in Vintage racing when you don't have any carb rules they can more liberally apply mods. According to them mine should flow around 500 cfm which should be a nice balance of primary size and flow to not over-carb the engine.


RDMG
Dave R
Northern Virginia
(138 posts)

Registered:
04/07/2016 08:29PM

Main British Car:
1979 MGB 4.6L Rover V8

Re: Assembled TA Rover cylinders (getting ready for the flow bench)
Posted by: RDMG
Date: June 09, 2016 09:20AM

Hi everyone,

Please forgive my ignorance, hopefully it doesn't shine through too brightly...

Carl said:

"Quench. I have been playing with various piston & rod length choices trying to find a good combination with good quench & reasonable compression with my late Rover heads. Doesn't seem possible. Then i look at the Rover heads & wonder why I am even worrying about quench. Quench, what quench? These things are nothing like SBC."

Could y'all help me understand the scope of the issue here? If I read the thread correctly, no known crank/piston/rod/head combo exists for the Rover v8 or Buick 300 that provides a meaningful quench effect.

Hypothetically, how much of a HP/efficiency effect would the quench effect provide in a BOPR or Buick 300 engine?

Is quench in the BOPR design an achievable thing? Would a custom piston set solve the problem, or is it a limitation of the head casting?

Dave


Blown v8
Bryan Phipps

(71 posts)

Registered:
03/10/2013 04:52PM

Main British Car:


Re: Assembled TA Rover cylinders (getting ready for the flow bench)
Posted by: Blown v8
Date: June 09, 2016 09:56AM

For spark plugs I use NGK -BCPR7ES I've gone for a cooler plug as mine is supercharged.
Mine was on the dyno yesterday,but having problems with oil drain back ! Roller cam and lifters fitted,pushrods have 80 thou holes,going to use 20 thou holed pushrods to try and limit the oil flow to the head.Heads are coming off again,to open up oil drain back
Did manage to run the engine in (5 gallons of fuel ) couldn't run over 4K revs.But am very impressed with how it's all going,pulleys are 20% underdriven for running in purposes,have a selection to take me to 10% over !
image.jpeg
image.jpeg


roverman
Art Gertz
Winchester, CA.
(3188 posts)

Registered:
04/24/2009 11:02AM

Main British Car:
74' Jensen Healy, 79 Huff. GT 1, 74 MGB Lotus 907,2L

Re: Assembled TA Rover cylinders (getting ready for the flow bench)
Posted by: roverman
Date: June 09, 2016 11:15AM

Doug, did you talk to Comp Cams about having the cam "Nitrided",(generic name, they have a fancy process name). ? EDM hole in the face of the lifters, to better lube the lobe faces ? Bryan, look like a 6V-71 blower ? You want to share your build and results ?


MGBV8
Carl Floyd
Kingsport, TN
(4511 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 11:32PM

Main British Car:
1979 MGB Buick 215

authors avatar
Re: Assembled TA Rover cylinders (getting ready for the flow bench)
Posted by: MGBV8
Date: June 09, 2016 12:42PM

Quote:
If I read the thread correctly, no known crank/piston/rod/head combo exists for the Rover v8 or Buick 300 that provides a meaningful quench effect.

It is do-able. Not cheaply, though. No clue how much it would really help.

To answer Dan's questions:

For now low budget of your low budget. Gonna use all the on hand parts I can. Maybe custom pistons down the road, if I don't give up & build an aluminum LS with a 4.8 crank.

No, I have not tried/used the NASCAR 390. I have spent much time tuning my 750 DP on my Camaro, if that counts. I have read that it will work on smaller engines, too. I am done trying to get along with the Edelbrock/Carter 500 for track days & autox. I do get 25-27mpg on the highway with it, though.

D R, have fun!

[www.uempistons.com]
Goto Page: Previous12345Next
Current Page: 4 of 5


Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.