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tips, technology, tools and techniques related to vehicle driveline components

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BlownMGB-V8
Jim Blackwood
9406 Gunpowder Rd., Florence, KY 41042
(5352 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 12:59PM

Main British Car:
1971 MGB Blown,Injected,Intercooled Buick 340/AA80E/JagIRS

authors avatar
New fuel tank pick-up
Posted by: BlownMGB-V8
Date: June 18, 2016 01:41PM

Ran across the Holley Hydra Mat, a flat mat that sits in the bottom of the tank and wicks fuel to the pickup. Pretty slick idea, available in a bunch of sizes and configurations. Should eliminate the need for a swirl pot or external tank.

[www.holley.com]

Jim

Edit: This'd be the one for the stock tank. Not cheap, at $200 but then again, compared to the alternatives not so bad.

[www.holley.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/18/2016 02:11PM by BlownMGB-V8.


Moderator
Curtis Jacobson
Portland Oregon
(4309 posts)

Registered:
10/12/2007 02:16AM

Main British Car:
71 MGBGT, Buick 215

authors avatar
Re: New fuel tank pick-up
Posted by: Moderator
Date: June 18, 2016 06:41PM

If I'm reading this correctly, Holley's product is just a larger version of what OEMs have been installing for many years: wicking "pre-filters" that lie flat on the floor of the tank and help prevent air ingestion. I chose a Honda Civic version for its angled connector, which facilitated fitting a Walbro pump at a 45 degree angle within an MGB tank.


BlownMGB-V8
Jim Blackwood
9406 Gunpowder Rd., Florence, KY 41042
(5352 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 12:59PM

Main British Car:
1971 MGB Blown,Injected,Intercooled Buick 340/AA80E/JagIRS

authors avatar
Re: New fuel tank pick-up
Posted by: BlownMGB-V8
Date: June 18, 2016 09:16PM

Not sure Curtis, but they have a patent pending on it so I think it might be a little more than that. Those socks drain pretty easy as I remember, if you pull them out of the fuel. Did you see the video where they only had one edge maybe 1/2" in the fuel and it still didn't suck bubbles? They had the pickup several inches above the fluid level. I thought that was pretty impressive.

Jim


had to buy it
Lorne Mitchell
Toronto, Ontario
(16 posts)

Registered:
11/04/2013 06:09PM

Main British Car:


Re: New fuel tank pick-up
Posted by: had to buy it
Date: June 19, 2016 06:19AM

I am at the fuel delivery system stage of my Rover V8 with EFI swap. Would the HydraMat allow me to run one High pressure pump mounted in the original pump location on my BGT? Seems like a simple solution provided you can get one to fit the MG tank easily. Am I missing something?

Thanks

Lorne


BlownMGB-V8
Jim Blackwood
9406 Gunpowder Rd., Florence, KY 41042
(5352 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 12:59PM

Main British Car:
1971 MGB Blown,Injected,Intercooled Buick 340/AA80E/JagIRS

authors avatar
Re: New fuel tank pick-up
Posted by: BlownMGB-V8
Date: June 19, 2016 10:25AM

Lorne, that is exactly what I am thinking. The one I posted a link for above is probably going to be the best bet in terms of size, ability to fit through the sender opening, area of coverage, location of the fitting, and price point. They also have a magnet kit that attaches to the corners to stick it to the bottom of the tank. Might only want them on one or both of the long ends, or if you could see inside well enough to position it, maybe all four. I would use a 90 degree fitting pointed away from the sender hole and a relatively long flexible hose to come back to it if possible, and try to keep the fitting from flopping over on its side.

I would guess the novel feature is that the combination of wicking and surface tension allows the pad to selectively pick up fluid in preference to air and exclude bubbles as long as fluid is present. Being able to put one in the bottom of a fuel cell and then turn it up on end and still maintain 60 psi pressure was impressive, but not as impressive as the demo one they had in the clear box because in that one it had to maintain flow and you could see if any bubbles were being picked up.

Jim

Edit: If this pans out, I expect to move my Bosch 44 type pump out of the spare battery well and put it by the tank in the stock location and plumb it direct to the injector rails with no pre-filter. The return will simply go to the tank vent fitting.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/19/2016 10:30AM by BlownMGB-V8.


had to buy it
Lorne Mitchell
Toronto, Ontario
(16 posts)

Registered:
11/04/2013 06:09PM

Main British Car:


Re: New fuel tank pick-up
Posted by: had to buy it
Date: June 20, 2016 06:28AM

Jim

Are the stock fuel supply and return lines large enough to maintain the right fuel pressure or are they too restrictive?

I have both a later chrome bumper tank and a RB tank. Would one be better than the other for this application?

This Holley product would sure make life easier putting my project together. Only needing one fuel pump is a benefit.

Lorne


BlownMGB-V8
Jim Blackwood
9406 Gunpowder Rd., Florence, KY 41042
(5352 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 12:59PM

Main British Car:
1971 MGB Blown,Injected,Intercooled Buick 340/AA80E/JagIRS

authors avatar
Re: New fuel tank pick-up
Posted by: BlownMGB-V8
Date: June 20, 2016 11:56AM

My thoughts exactly. I'd love to reduce the complexity and get a dependable and reliable result.

Anyway, my thoughts on line size follow:

The stock fuel line is 5/16" and the return (original vent line) is 1/4. In the muscle car era, 5/16" line was used by all manufacturers to supply fuel to engines in the 300 hp range, using suction and a mechanical pump at the engine. That means the absolute maximum theoretical amount of pressure that could be applied across the line at any time was 15 psi (atmospheric) and the practical limit was probably closer to a third of that, although I have no way of confirming that theory. Most references only concern themselves with delivery pressure but it has no bearing on fuel line flow in this situation. I can only hope Graham may have some info on this.

So, the analysis is greatly dependent on whether we are considering a carbed or EFI application, also if carbed with a regulator in the engine compartment it would be more akin to the EFI install.

But if we take 300 hp at a 15 psi delivery pressure as the baseline it gives us some overhead. OTOH, this inevitably leads us to conclude that for a carbed electric pump installation with the pressure regulated at the pump and 300 hp the 5/16" line might be inadequate, and I don't honestly believe this to be the case. The truth will lie somewhere between the two.

Now, if you put your regulator in the engine compartment, the pump is free to deliver fuel based on it's pressure/flow curve. For EFI that is going to be at 39 psi or better, so roughly at least three times the vacuum that the mechanical pump can draw. In general, tripling the pressure should triple the fuel delivery so the same 5/16" line should be adequate for 900 hp or possibly more. Therefore in an EFI system it should be big enough. This also helps explain why we aren't seeing larger lines in modern cars.

The return is another question. At full power the fuel requirements of the engine are subtracted from the delivery volume and the remainder is returned to the tank. The 1/4" line is a restriction, but I have not found it to be a problem. Obviously any pump will be happier with less restriction and last longer and there is not much of a disadvantage in running larger lines, so above 300 hp it may be a good idea to enlarge both runs but below that I wouldn't bother. If however you fit a huge pump it will be working against this small line and that isn't a good thing.

As for the tanks, the best would be if you have a supply, a return, and a vent line. That way you can reduce fuel spillage and consider a charcoal canister to collect fuel vapors, or at least run a vent line up high (like across the top of the trunk) where cornering forces will not be able to push fuel out. I believe some of the later tanks had a supply line in the sender? So a careful choice of tank and sender can give you that. It's easier to cap an unused fitting than to add one.

I have a Bosch 44 clone in my spare battery box, you can get those for $30-50 on ebay and they are pretty good pumps, especially for the money. Suitable for EFI, so they need a regulator whether used for EFI or a carb. A return flow regulator would be best in this situation, I currently do not know how well one would work with a non-return regulator, but line pressure would be up around 100 psi.

Jim



mstemp
Mike Stemp
Calgary, Canada
(180 posts)

Registered:
11/25/2009 07:18AM

Main British Car:
1980 MGB Rover 4.6L

Re: New fuel tank pick-up
Posted by: mstemp
Date: June 20, 2016 01:33PM

Just a few comment on this.

How are you going to get the mat inside the tank without cutting it open? Great that the magnets are available but placing them through the sending unit hole is not very likely is it?

Who is volunteering to cut open an old tank? Yes it can be done safely but no thanks. Fill with water etc but then more rust will start. Then how do you fit a cover plate? More costs.

Or start with a new tank. Consider that most of our tanks are very old and how many are actual rusted this is the better way to go. I took mine out this weekend and even though I am in a dry climate, keep the tank full when stored, it had some internal rust at the inside top portion.

So if we price out a new Specter tank ($200+), Holley mat ($200), and then a pump ($50-150) are we not close to the tank from Todd, available through Brian? I bought mine years ago and have finally started my FI conversion so in it went. Hope it works well. No I don't get anything for recommending this tank I just think it solve the tank issue fairly easily.


kstevusa
kelly stevenson
Southern Middle Tennessee
(817 posts)

Registered:
10/25/2007 09:37AM

Main British Car:
2003 Jaguar XK8 Coupe 4.2L DOHC/ VVT / 6sp. AT

authors avatar
Re: New fuel tank pick-up
Posted by: kstevusa
Date: June 20, 2016 05:02PM

Jim, the 5/16" delivery line was adequate to deliver fuel to my 5.0L ford (275 RWHP & 305 Torque). There was NO deviation in my A/F mixture across the RPM band. The Malibu GM pump provided fuel to the FPR on the rail set at 39 PSI. I fabbed a 5/16 return line to return to the pump canister. An inline GM threaded (std 98 Truck) fuel filter was used. It was surprising the V6 pump provided adequate fuel, but one cannot argue with the results. Info provided for use regarding OEM tanks and GM OEM fuel modules.


BlownMGB-V8
Jim Blackwood
9406 Gunpowder Rd., Florence, KY 41042
(5352 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 12:59PM

Main British Car:
1971 MGB Blown,Injected,Intercooled Buick 340/AA80E/JagIRS

authors avatar
Re: New fuel tank pick-up
Posted by: BlownMGB-V8
Date: June 20, 2016 06:54PM

Mike, if you looked at the second link, the mat is formed in the shape of a cross so by folding it there should not be much trouble with fitting it through the sender bung, even with the magnets and fuel line attached. But since I haven't tried it yet I can't say for certain. Getting the fuel line hooked up to the inside of the outlet might be a bit more tricky, it might have to come out through the sender. I don't know why anyone would want to cut open their tank to do any of this though. I was thinking with a flashlight and a stick (and maybe a mirror) you should be able to position the mat.

Did Todd's tanks come with a fuel pump installed? I wasn't aware of that. Makes the price seem more reasonable at least.

In any case, the mat should benefit any tank, even Todd's I would think.

And the idea here was to eliminate most of the complexity and cost of going from a serviceable OEM tank to a usable EFI configuration since that's what most of us dealing with this issue are facing. If all you have to do is buy a $50 pump and add this $200 mat and everything works as normal I'd think a lot of people would consider that a win. Might even be able to do it without removing the tank from the car.

Jim


Moderator
Curtis Jacobson
Portland Oregon
(4309 posts)

Registered:
10/12/2007 02:16AM

Main British Car:
71 MGBGT, Buick 215

authors avatar
Re: New fuel tank pick-up
Posted by: Moderator
Date: June 20, 2016 09:57PM

Cutting into an MGB fuel tank isn't a big deal. (It's very thin steel.) I drilled a small starter hole, used aviation snips to make it bigger, and used a Roper-Whitney hand punch for access plate holes. Photos in the gallery...

www.apeusa.com is a great source for pumps, submersible fuel line, submersible cable, and OEM style pre-filters. (I paid $6 for the Honda pre-filter, part number 400-846 as shown in "kit 2"). McMaster-Carr offers Buna-N gasket material in 12"x12" sheets, surprisingly cheap.


Scott68B
Scott Costanzo
Columbus, Ohio
(499 posts)

Registered:
10/25/2007 11:30AM

Main British Car:
1968 MGB GM 5.3 LS4 V8

authors avatar
Re: New fuel tank pick-up
Posted by: Scott68B
Date: June 21, 2016 09:15AM

Sounds very interesting. It looks like amazing stuff. This article talks about actually installing it.

[www.powerperformancenews.com]

FYI, it would be VERY difficult if not impossible to position one of these in a stock tank that has baffles in it without cutting the tank. Not too many of those around anymore so it probably is a non issue.


BlownMGB-V8
Jim Blackwood
9406 Gunpowder Rd., Florence, KY 41042
(5352 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 12:59PM

Main British Car:
1971 MGB Blown,Injected,Intercooled Buick 340/AA80E/JagIRS

authors avatar
Re: New fuel tank pick-up
Posted by: BlownMGB-V8
Date: June 21, 2016 10:54AM

Scott, do you have a photo, or can you make a sketch of the baffles and hoe they are positioned in the stock tank? I seem to recall something like a pair of vertical walls running front to back with cutouts in the bottom but I have never actually seen them. Mine is a 90's replacement btw.

Jim


Scott68B
Scott Costanzo
Columbus, Ohio
(499 posts)

Registered:
10/25/2007 11:30AM

Main British Car:
1968 MGB GM 5.3 LS4 V8

authors avatar
Re: New fuel tank pick-up
Posted by: Scott68B
Date: June 21, 2016 12:19PM

Yeah, the earlier tanks are roughly divided into thirds with the baffles running front to back. Later ones had that inner vapor? tank in them and only one baffle but it is on the end with the sender/fill tube so your access is still restricted.

Google MGB tank baffles and you'll get the idea.


BlownMGB-V8
Jim Blackwood
9406 Gunpowder Rd., Florence, KY 41042
(5352 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 12:59PM

Main British Car:
1971 MGB Blown,Injected,Intercooled Buick 340/AA80E/JagIRS

authors avatar
Re: New fuel tank pick-up
Posted by: BlownMGB-V8
Date: June 21, 2016 01:42PM

Quite interesting. But you could still put a mat in the chamber closest to the sender and that would probably work pretty well. Other than the big hole, there has to be some openings below the baffle to let fuel run through, so the small chamber on the right would act as a smaller tank in cornering. I think it'd work pretty well with a small rectangular pad in that area. You'd just need to figure out whether you had a baffle or not.

Jim



Scott68B
Scott Costanzo
Columbus, Ohio
(499 posts)

Registered:
10/25/2007 11:30AM

Main British Car:
1968 MGB GM 5.3 LS4 V8

authors avatar
Re: New fuel tank pick-up
Posted by: Scott68B
Date: June 21, 2016 02:23PM

There is a gap where the floor of the tank curves upward on both the front and rear of the baffle that is about an 1/8" wide at the most and a couple of inches long. Other than that the baffle is spot welded to the floor and the front and rear vertical walls of the tank. There is about a 3/4" gap at the top.


minorv8
Jukka Harkola

(121 posts)

Registered:
04/08/2009 06:50AM

Main British Car:
Morris Minor Rover V8

Re: New fuel tank pick-up
Posted by: minorv8
Date: June 22, 2016 01:44AM

I converted my carb/dizzy setup to EFi/direct fire during the long winter. This necessitated also a complete fuel system update. My car is not a MGB and has a tall tank in the trunk so my setup may not be of any reference to most of you. But, I also thought about using a Holley Hydramat when I first read about it. But the total price inc. shipping and local import fees was pretty bad. Also, my tank is stainless so magnets do not work too well for locating the mat.

So, plan B. I have a new Bosch 044 pump, generic filter sock for inlet, AN fittings, some stainless and this is what I ended with.

IMG_0991_small.jpg

IMG_1001_small.jpg

IMG_1131_small.jpg

I fabricated a round reservoir around the pump and routed the return line there. There are some hole in the bottom of the reservoir. I saw a similar factory setup of some LS-engined GM car (very late Pontiac perhaps ?).

I used to have a filler where the pump is now fitted so I had to cut new holes into the tank. I did wash the tank, let it sit empty outside for a couple of days to get rid of any vapors and even the I water filled it before cutting the holes :-)

As for lines, all are AN6 hoses and hard lines. Overkill most likely but I wanted hard lines underneath the car and -6 size was the smallest diameter that was easily available. I welded a AN6 bung to the factory fuel rail to connect the hose.

The business end is Rover V8 with factory EFi setup (almost stock...).

IMG_1157_small.jpg


had to buy it
Lorne Mitchell
Toronto, Ontario
(16 posts)

Registered:
11/04/2013 06:09PM

Main British Car:


Re: New fuel tank pick-up
Posted by: had to buy it
Date: June 22, 2016 03:11PM

The later RB tank I have only has a round tank like structure hanging from the top. The return line from the corner next to the fuel filler drops into the centre of it. No other baffles that I can feel with a long thin stick. Sounds like a good candidate to try the HydraMat. The tank is almost new and very clean inside and out. The sender hole is 2.5 diameter. According to the Holley literature a 3 x 8 mat will fit through a 2.15 " hole.

Can't see why I shouldn't try this out as long as the later style tank will fit in my 73 BGT.

Now to price out the mat and magnets delivered to Toronto.

One step closer

Lorne


MGBV8
Carl Floyd
Kingsport, TN
(3235 posts)

Registered:
10/23/2007 11:32PM

Main British Car:
79 MGB, Buick 215

authors avatar
Re: New fuel tank pick-up
Posted by: MGBV8
Date: June 22, 2016 04:02PM

Like this?





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/22/2016 04:02PM by MGBV8.


had to buy it
Lorne Mitchell
Toronto, Ontario
(16 posts)

Registered:
11/04/2013 06:09PM

Main British Car:


Re: New fuel tank pick-up
Posted by: had to buy it
Date: June 22, 2016 05:20PM

Yes
just like that.
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